Stanford vs. Berkeley ($$$) Forum

[notactuallyposting]

-The schools you are considering:
Stanford, Berkeley

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
Stanford- total indebtedness @ repayment: $162,688
Berkeley- total indebtedness @ repayment: $37,917
(Above numbers reflect use of about 30k of personal savings, SO covering all COL, and of course scholarship at Berkeley. Ineligible for grant aid from Stanford)

-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
The remaining COA reflected above will be in federal loans

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
Originally from New York, where I also attended undergrad. Since graduating I have lived and worked in both Los Angeles and the Bay Area.

-Your general career goals
If you haven't guessed, big priority to stay in northern California or the PNW. Public Interest focused (7+ years of WE relevant to my PI interest), also a particular boutique firm in the Bay Area intrigues me, as well as a couple of niche big law-type firms. LA would be a backup location.

Thank you.

(Edited to add a poll)

[Winston1984]

Is your PI some crazy field that needs HYS to break into? Berkeley at that price is a steal.

[notactuallyposting]

Is your PI some crazy field that needs HYS to break into? Berkeley at that price is a steal.

All PI is pretty tricky to get entry level into. My WE will help me tremendously. However, the PI organizations that I have spoken to all say they rarely higher entry folk. With that in mind it may be necessary to try for a fellowship, a clerkship, or a related boutique firm. If PI entry level was a real thing, I would of course choose Berkeley.

Otherwise, honestly I do not know enough about PI hiring or getting some of the aforementioned positions out of Berkeley vs Stanford, or if there is even an advantage on the West Coast.

[rpupkin]

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but could you say why you are even considering SLS in these circumstances? Given your professional goals and your preference for Northern California, it seems like, though SLS might give you a slight advantage, that advantage is probably not worth close to $130K.

If you feel comfortable doing so, you might want to name the particular boutique firm in the Bay Area that intrigues you. If it's Keker, going to SLS doesn't really give you an advantage over Boalt. Not sure about the other boutiques, but my sense is that they require roughly the same credentials (e.g., grades, personality) of students of both schools.

ETA: I should qualify what I wrote about Keker. Although what I wrote is generally true for SA hiring (they typically hire one student each from SLS and Boalt), Keker pretty much requires a clerkship before starting as an associate. And SLS definitely places better into clerkships than Boalt. So there's that.

[lecsa]

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but could you say why you are even considering SLS in these circumstances?

Let me guess - prestige and name dropping. Stanford is a lot more prestigious, but it's not worth the extra cost.

[notactuallyposting]

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but could you say why you are even considering SLS in these circumstances? Given your professional goals and your preference for Northern California, it seems like, though SLS might give you a slight advantage, that advantage is probably not worth close to $130K.

If you feel comfortable doing so, you might want to name the particular boutique firm in the Bay Area that intrigues you. If it's Keker, going to SLS doesn't really give you an advantage over Boalt. Not sure about the other boutiques, but my sense is that they require roughly the same credentials (e.g., grades, personality) of students of both schools.

ETA: I should qualify what I wrote about Keker. Although what I wrote is generally true for SA hiring (they typically hire one student each from SLS and Boalt), Keker pretty much requires a clerkship before starting as an associate. And SLS definitely places better into clerkships than Boalt. So there's that.

No offense taken. I am considering Stanford because my goals are very specific. Stanford seems second to none at getting grads into niche fields on the west coast.

On its own, 160k for Stanford seems like a pretty good deal, given my SO salary and life circumstances. I had accepted that number already. I just got the Berkeley scholarship this week, so I am still in the processing stage. I just really don't know how S vs B are perceived in the Bay Area, so I appreciate your input about Keker. I am interested in some particular big law firms as well, such as Hooper.

[notactuallyposting]

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but could you say why you are even considering SLS in these circumstances?

Let me guess - prestige and name dropping. Stanford is a lot more prestigious, but it's not worth the extra cost.

Sure, there is a bit of that as well. Also the employment and clerkship numbers are pretty impressive at Stanford.

[aboutmydaylight]

$160,000 at Stanford isn't a bad deal, its just that its not really your price since your SO is covering COL and you're dipping into your savings. IMO SO paying is more or less the same thing as savings since if you're at the point where they're financing your education, you likely plan on spending the rest of your life with them. Maybe its just me but I wouldn't really see savings/SO income as comparable to grants/parent contribution.

[rpupkin]

No offense taken. I am considering Stanford because my goals are very specific. Stanford seems second to none at getting grads into niche fields on the west coast.

I don't doubt it. Berkeley, by contrast, isn't second to none; it's second to Stanford. For many PI niches, though, Berkeley is a very close second. It sounds like you're talking to working lawyers in your PI field, which is good. TLS'ers are obviously going to be of limited help with regard to your (unidentified) PI preferences.

On its own, 160k for Stanford seems like a pretty good deal, given my SO salary and life circumstances. I had accepted that number already. I just got the Berkeley scholarship this week, so I am still in the processing stage.

160K for SLS might be a good deal given your circumstances. But 30K for Boalt might be a better deal. The difference in monthly loan payments is pretty substantial. Let's put it this way: you and your husband will be able to afford a nicer home in the Bay Area if you attend Boalt.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Berkeley easily

[notactuallyposting]

$160,000 at Stanford isn't a bad deal, its just that its not really your price since your SO is covering COL and you're dipping into your savings. IMO SO paying is more or less the same thing as savings since if you're at the point where they're financing your education, you likely plan on spending the rest of your life with them. Maybe its just me but I wouldn't really see savings/SO income as comparable to grants/parent contribution.

That is a terrific point. Perhaps I am being blinded by the glory of the big S.

[lecsa]

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but could you say why you are even considering SLS in these circumstances?

Let me guess - prestige and name dropping. Stanford is a lot more prestigious, but it's not worth the extra cost.

Sure, there is a bit of that as well. Also the employment and clerkship numbers are pretty impressive at Stanford.

Fair. Before I went to law school, I would have easily said Stanford and thought you were crazy for saying otherwise, because well, it's Stanford.

Now that I'm practicing, I think $$$ is extremely important in making a decision, and further, being a lawyer isn't prestigious and going to law school isn't prestigious anyway.

I don't think choosing Stanford at 160k is crazy, but in case you decided that you didn't like what you were doing, a total indebtness of 40k would give you a lot more freedom in choosing the type of work you wanted. I don't know too much about PNW PI, but I know that NYC PI is a lot less prestige-oriented (they hire CUNY, third tier grads) than TLS makes it out to seem.

[notactuallyposting]

No offense taken. I am considering Stanford because my goals are very specific. Stanford seems second to none at getting grads into niche fields on the west coast.

I don't doubt it. Berkeley, by contrast, isn't second to none; it's second to Stanford. For many PI niches, though, Berkeley is a very close second. It sounds like you're talking to working lawyers in your PI field, which is good. TLS'ers are obviously going to be of limited help with regard to your (unidentified) PI preferences.

On its own, 160k for Stanford seems like a pretty good deal, given my SO salary and life circumstances. I had accepted that number already. I just got the Berkeley scholarship this week, so I am still in the processing stage.

160K for SLS might be a good deal given your circumstances. But 30K for Boalt might be a better deal. The difference in monthly loan payments is pretty substantial. Let's put it this way: you and your husband will be able to afford a nicer home in the Bay Area if you attend Boalt.

All true. I have spoken to many many many PI lawyers... they are from a different era though. Their main advice is not to rely on PI right out of law school. So, I turn to TLS for perspective on employment that will help get me to my goals and about COA. At the end of the day, it is just hard to say no to Stanford, so I am asking a wall of well-informed internet strangers!

[whereskyle]

Stanford places better into clerkships than Boalt, which is huge for prestigious PI. However, it is not advisable to plan to work in PI exclusively, unless you're willing to work for peanuts or live unemployed. If it's prestigious PI or bust, then Stanford. If you're flexible and willing to be a lawyer lawyer, then Boalt. I would choose Boalt in your position.

[notactuallyposting]

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but could you say why you are even considering SLS in these circumstances?

Let me guess - prestige and name dropping. Stanford is a lot more prestigious, but it's not worth the extra cost.

Sure, there is a bit of that as well. Also the employment and clerkship numbers are pretty impressive at Stanford.

Fair. Before I went to law school, I would have easily said Stanford and thought you were crazy for saying otherwise, because well, it's Stanford.

Now that I'm practicing, I think $$$ is extremely important in making a decision, and further, being a lawyer isn't prestigious and going to law school isn't prestigious anyway.

I don't think choosing Stanford at 160k is crazy, but in case you decided that you didn't like what you were doing, a total indebtness of 40k would give you a lot more freedom in choosing the type of work you wanted. I don't know too much about PNW PI, but I know that NYC PI is a lot less prestige-oriented (they hire CUNY, third tier grads) than TLS makes it out to seem.

Thanks for the input.

[notactuallyposting]

Stanford places better into clerkships than Boalt, which is huge for prestigious PI. However, it is not advisable to plan to work in PI exclusively, unless you're willing to work for peanuts or live unemployed. If it's prestigious PI or bust, then Stanford. If you're flexible and willing to be a lawyer lawyer, then Boalt. I would choose Boalt in your position.

I don't need prestigious PI, whatever that means. It would be pretty neat to clerk, but its not "clerk or bust".

[notactuallyposting]

Stanford places students better than Berkeley nationally, especially with clerkships and more "prestigious" PI positions... Does this distinction hold true if the only targeted market is San Francisco?

[rpupkin]

Stanford places students better than Berkeley nationally, especially with clerkships and more "prestigious" PI positions... Does this distinction hold true if the only targeted market is San Francisco?

I think SLS has an advantage in San Francisco as well, but the advantage is less pronounced. If you wrote, say, that your goal was to clerk on the DC Circuit and then work at a PI org on the East Coast, then SLS's prestige matters more. (Even in that case I would still probably vote for Berkeley with $$$, though it's a closer call.)

You mentioned litigation boutiques in the OP. Browse through the bios of the partners and associates at those places. At almost any "prestigious" SF boutique I can think of, there are more graduates of Boalt than any other school. Now, that doesn't mean that Boalt is on equal footing with SLS when it comes to getting jobs at those boutiques, but my sense is that SLS's placement advantage in SF is pretty slight. It's almost certainly worth less than $130K.

[notactuallyposting]

Huh. Just calculated loan repayment schedule...

Stanford is $1970 per month for 10 years
Berkeley is $448 per month for 10 years, or $1705 per month for 2 years

For some reason that difference looks bigger when broken down that way

[lecsa]

.

[Doorkeeper]

Stanford for $160k is a great deal.

Can someone who knows more about the San Fran legal market speak to the advantage Stanford has in boutique firms and prestigious PI positions in the Bay Area?

[lecsa]

.

[rebexness]

Stanford for $160k is a great deal, especially if OP is interested in staying in San Fran and doing boutique litigation work.

Look at the loan repayments per month

This is why people with no work experience shouldn't go to law school

Just because it is more expensive doesn't mean it still isn't a great deal.

[lecsa]

Stanford for $160k is a great deal, especially if OP is interested in staying in San Fran and doing boutique litigation work.

Look at the loan repayments per month

This is why people with no work experience shouldn't go to law school

Just because it is more expensive doesn't mean it still isn't a great deal.

compared to what? 2k a month for 10 years doesn't seem like a great deal to me

For the most part, nobody cares where you went after a couple years out of law school and after you get work experience. If you're going into PI especially, you won't be making much, so 2k is a ton per month.

[worldtraveler]

If you can be more specific about what you want to do, people can give better advice (well, some people will pay attention to it). PI is so broad to be almost meaningless because it means anything that's not a firm, and that's a lot of things.