Update: CLS $ vs Cornell $$$ Forum

[buffalo_]

UPDATED: Conventional wisdom says take the scholarship but I am hesitant to do so.

Options: Columbia ~$237k (total due at end of 3yrs as per LS22's spreadsheet)
Cornell: ~$150k (total due at end of 3yrs as per LS22's spreadsheet)
NYU: $? (Awaiting appeal to a no aid offer. Without any aid, I think NYU has to be out ).

Goals: Fed Clerkship/BigLaw or Prestigious PI. Clerkship is definite desire, but I realize it's neither easy to get nor a differentiator for any of these schools. I would much prefer PI and use PAYE + LRAP but I am open to and intrigued by BigLaw as well. I will probably skew more towards the "legal nerd" kind of persona at school. I just find law fascinating and I want to practice it. I value the work-life balance and feel goodishness from PI about equal to the higher salary of BigLaw. That's as of right now though. I could easily see myself finding a class or opportunity at LS that will sway my preference one way or the other.

Other considerations: I am a splitter, with a very high LSAT and work experience so retaking or waiting won't offer me any advantage.

I grew up in tri-state area. Nearly all of my friends and my family are in the area and I have an SO in the area. I have also lived in another city (far away) for the past two years, so I have a strong desire to go back. Ithaca is closer to them than I am now, but not close enough that I would really see them any more frequently (probably less since I will be busier than I am now). I will know zero people in Ithaca. I can save a bit of travel money by going to CLS, but none of my family live close enough that I could commute and have any rational expectation of doing well.

Also I personally prefer CLS substantially. Loved the ASW and really connected with current students and profs. I did not visit Cornell, I was accepted late. I will visit but won't have chance until after the deposit deadline.

Can I justify $90k more for Columbia considering significantly better LRAP, not-insignificantly better BigLaw, and proximity to friends and loved ones?

Thanks for the opinions.

[Big Dog]

premature. Wait until you hear from Duke and Cornell and even Penn.

[chicky]

I'm in the same boat (also stillll waiting on NYU and Duke for scholly/fin aid info) and would really love to get people's thoughts on this.

[cotiger]

Duke gives most of its class at least a little bit of money, and if you got into Columbia and NYU, you'll almost certainly be getting some. In combination with the significantly lower COL, that will likely be your best bet.

[03152016]

Do not attend Cardozo for biglaw. That is not a risk-averse option; it's a suicide mission. 17.4% of the class ended up in 101+ person firms. 58.5% of the class failed to obtain full-time, long-term, JD-required jobs. Those are some scary numbers.

As for C/N, it depends on your circumstances and the aid you'll get at Duke. I'm not as allergic to sticker as some on TLS, but I'm on board with Duke + $$ being the better option.

[PrideandGlory1776]

If your in at Columbia then you'll get the Presidential 165k from Cornell - enjoy Ithaca and NYC Big Law thereafter!

p.s. Do NOT attend Cardoza - please for the love of all that is good go t14 with $$$

[francesfarmer]

If your in at Columbia then you'll get the Presidential 165k from Cornell - enjoy Ithaca and NYC Big Law thereafter!

p.s. Do NOT attend Cardoza - please for the love of all that is good go t14 with $$$

Eh, probably not.

I got $30k from Cornell as a splitter (but my LSAT probably isn't as high).

[jbagelboy]

Classic splitters quandary. Retake college is TCR.

Alternatively, do what you can to score $$ from UVa or Northwestern.

Columbia gives as dependable chance at your goals as anywhere else, but I wouldn't wish the repaying-sticker-debt game on anyone. I don't advise sticker anywhere for biglaw, so I certainly can't advise it in this case.

Cardozo won't get you where you want to go.

So you'll need an in between option, or a wealthy benefactor. Are you in a position to save money and defer? Idk. You're in a tough spot, despite such terrific acceptances.

[buffalo_]

Classic splitters quandary. Retake college is TCR.

Alternatively, do what you can to score $$ from UVa or Northwestern.

Columbia gives as dependable chance at your goals as anywhere else, but I wouldn't wish the repaying-sticker-debt game on anyone. I don't advise sticker anywhere for biglaw, so I certainly can't advise it in this case.

Cardozo won't get you where you want to go.

So you'll need an in between option, or a wealthy benefactor. Are you in a position to save money and defer? Idk. You're in a tough spot, despite such terrific acceptances.

Can't defer. And if I did I couldn't save more than $20k, not really worth it IMO. I got a WL from UVa (YP maybe?), and I didn't apply to NU, mainly because there was no situation in which I would want to go there.

I was > 175 so I don't think retaking will help at all.

[northwood]

When did you apply? If you applied late- then I would say reapply in September. I would also send an application to Northwestern, as they are traditionally very splitter friendly (and you can get a good scholarship from them). Even if you do nothing, you should get a good scholarship at some schools- and you will be saving a TON OF MONEY during repayment.

[lecsa]

.

[bearsfan23]

If you dont get offers from some lower ranked T14 schools, I think NYU/Columbia is a fine choice even at full COL. Your goal is fed clerkship/biglaw and at least Columbia puts 75% of their class there. Given self-selection, its probably closer to a 85-90% rate.

Really, just decide how debt-averse you are and decide from there. Most of TLS now thinks anything other than Yale on a 50% scholarship is a bad decision, so a lot of the advice here is pretty shitty, but its all about how you personally look at your options

[lecsa]

.

[Balthy]

If you dont get offers from some lower ranked T14 schools, I think NYU/Columbia is a fine choice even at full COL. Your goal is fed clerkship/biglaw and at least Columbia puts 75% of their class there. Given self-selection, its probably closer to a 85-90% rate.

Really, just decide how debt-averse you are and decide from there. Most of TLS now thinks anything other than Yale on a 50% scholarship is a bad decision, so a lot of the advice here is pretty shitty, but its all about how you personally look at your options

It's not about getting biglaw; it's about lasting in it. Getting it is the much easier part because law school is pretty easy. If he takes out 300k loans he'll probably have to work biglaw for at least 5 years just to get a net worth of around zero if he's paying it off relatively aggressively.

For many of us woefully unskilled lib arts folks, a net worth of zero 7-8 yrs from now while making six figures at an in-house gig is better than any alternative available to us.

[jbagelboy]

Classic splitters quandary. Retake college is TCR.

Alternatively, do what you can to score $$ from UVa or Northwestern.

Columbia gives as dependable chance at your goals as anywhere else, but I wouldn't wish the repaying-sticker-debt game on anyone. I don't advise sticker anywhere for biglaw, so I certainly can't advise it in this case.

Cardozo won't get you where you want to go.

So you'll need an in between option, or a wealthy benefactor. Are you in a position to save money and defer? Idk. You're in a tough spot, despite such terrific acceptances.

Can't defer. And if I did I couldn't save more than $20k, not really worth it IMO. I got a WL from UVa (YP maybe?), and I didn't apply to NU, mainly because there was no situation in which I would want to go there.

I was > 175 so I don't think retaking will help at all.

Then of your current options, if you have no other career options, Columbia. It's as good an investment for a high paying job as any other law school, and in terms of career earnings it would most likely still be worth it. Just don't expect models & bottles cause you'll be living penniless for the next 8 years.

[Big Dog]

with work experience did you not apply to Northwestern? Michigan? Virginia? (really silly to not blanket the T14 while applying to cardozo.)

Regardless, the answer is neither of these two and WAIT for the other offers. If you have CLS numbers, Fordham should have considered you for a named scholarship.

The dilemma I am having is that I feel like the only options I have to achieve my goals are going to place me in a very bad position debt wise.

No, just no. The dilemma you have is that you could not apply broadly for money to then be able to negotiate up.

[Otunga]

with work experience did you not apply to Northwestern? Michigan? Virginia? (really silly to not blanket the T14 while applying to cardozo.)

Regardless, the answer is neither of these two and WAIT for the other offers. If you have CLS numbers, Fordham should have considered you for a named scholarship.

The dilemma I am having is that I feel like the only options I have to achieve my goals are going to place me in a very bad position debt wise.

No, just no. The dilemma you have is that you could not apply broadly for money to then be able to negotiate up.

If Fordham offered a full, that could be the school for him. For someone who can't get a lot of t14 money, if any, a school like that with a full is a happy medium.

[lecsa]

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[Otunga]

If you dont get offers from some lower ranked T14 schools, I think NYU/Columbia is a fine choice even at full COL. Your goal is fed clerkship/biglaw and at least Columbia puts 75% of their class there. Given self-selection, its probably closer to a 85-90% rate.

Really, just decide how debt-averse you are and decide from there. Most of TLS now thinks anything other than Yale on a 50% scholarship is a bad decision, so a lot of the advice here is pretty shitty, but its all about how you personally look at your options

It's not about getting biglaw; it's about lasting in it. Getting it is the much easier part because law school is pretty easy. If he takes out 300k loans he'll probably have to work biglaw for at least 5 years just to get a net worth of around zero if he's paying it off relatively aggressively.

For many of us woefully unskilled lib arts folks, a net worth of zero 7-8 yrs from now while making six figures at an in-house gig is better than any alternative available to us.

So the only other option is to pay 300k to go to law school? Not even get another degree for free?

Ok, then.

Computer science sounds like a viable alternative, whether that takes the form of another bachelors or a masters. Or anything else that's "practical". Indeed, I've considered that option a lot, but am freaked out by the math involved. However, sticker debt would scare me more than math.

[lecsa]

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[Law Sauce]

People don't seem to understand that splitters (or reverse splitters) are not valuable enough to schools to give big money because they only help one of the medians and not the other. That being said, they can get into higher ranked school (like Colombia) because they do help the one median. Further, a small scholarship may be in order if the school is trying to game the medians by taking splitters and balancing it with reverse splitters. For example the median of 177/2.6 176/3.3, 170/3.8, 165/3.9, 160/3.9 is 170/3.8 (and the 170/3.8 is getting a bigger scholarship then the 177/2.6 or 176/3.3). If a school's medians are 170/3.7 then a 171/3.75 is more valuable that a 180/3.6, thats just the way it is. Thats why splitters end up pick higher ranked schools for sticker, because they can't get enough money out of the lower schools to justify picking them (and unlike reverse splitters they cannot retake their GPA). Thus, if you are a big enough splitter, i.e. low GPA, there probably is not a lower ranking option for cheap enough that is worth it and good enough that it is worth going to.

OP unless you beat the odds and actually do get $$ at Cornell or another T14, take the splitter plunge and go to the best school you get into. Cordozo is just not even in the same league, no matter the cost (unless local goals or something).

[Balthy]

If you dont get offers from some lower ranked T14 schools, I think NYU/Columbia is a fine choice even at full COL. Your goal is fed clerkship/biglaw and at least Columbia puts 75% of their class there. Given self-selection, its probably closer to a 85-90% rate.

Really, just decide how debt-averse you are and decide from there. Most of TLS now thinks anything other than Yale on a 50% scholarship is a bad decision, so a lot of the advice here is pretty shitty, but its all about how you personally look at your options

It's not about getting biglaw; it's about lasting in it. Getting it is the much easier part because law school is pretty easy. If he takes out 300k loans he'll probably have to work biglaw for at least 5 years just to get a net worth of around zero if he's paying it off relatively aggressively.

For many of us woefully unskilled lib arts folks, a net worth of zero 7-8 yrs from now while making six figures at an in-house gig is better than any alternative available to us.

So the only other option is to pay 300k to go to law school? Not even get another degree for free?

Ok, then.

I was thinking along the lines of what law sauce said. A good free or cheap alternative might not be available to splitters.

For most people, i agree, a small compromise in rank/employment rate to minimize the debt is obviously the right choice.

[smaug_]

wait for aid packages to come out before killing yourself making the decision

CLS might give you some need based aid. Duke could give you a good scholarship.

[lawschool22]

How low is your GPA? I'm thinking Duke may end up being the right choice, as I imagine they will give you a decent amount assuming your GPA isn't atrocious (which it probably isn't since you got into Columbia).

I agree with other posters that you should have applied to more schools. Is waiting an option?

[buffalo_]

How low is your GPA? I'm thinking Duke may end up being the right choice, as I imagine they will give you a decent amount assuming your GPA isn't atrocious (which it probably isn't since you got into Columbia).

I agree with other posters that you should have applied to more schools. Is waiting an option?

I blanked the T14 except for Michigan, NU, and GULC. Mainly because I had no interest in those schools. I was waitlisted at UVA (YP I hope). I could wait, but it wouldnt help my numbers at all. And I don't think the cycle will be as generous next year (Feb LSATs were up). Also, I worry what Columbia would think about withdrawing and applying again. I can't imagine they would look to favorably upon my indecision next cycle.