UVA v. Northwestern v. Texas ($) v. UCLA ($$) v. Minn (full) Forum

[karateandfriendship]

I've been offered admission to the following schools:
•UVA
•Northwestern (waiting on grant decision)
•Texas (in-state + $)
•UCLA ($$)
•Minnesota (full tuition)

I'll be financing all costs with loans; K-JD with no undergraduate debt and no meaningful savings.

I'm somewhat ambivalent regarding practice area but aiming for Biglaw or mythical mid-law litigation. An ancillary goal is to earn a federal clerkship. I'm geographically unconcerned, though I would like to work in a metro. As the in-state tuition would suggest, I'm from Texas.

3.1x/173. I took the LSAT once and, on principle, I will not retake. I mention the principle not to suggest self-righteousness but to respectfully fend off the TLS commentariat's frequent calls to retake.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts, advice, anecdotes, and feedback. I'll be happy to answer any questions needed to further inform any opinions.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

Where do you have ties? What do you mean by "a metro"? The geographical options you will have are very different at UMinn than UVA. These are all great and viable law school choices but to make the best decision you will need full information on debt, ties, and where you want to live (metro area near ocean? metro area of 2 million+ people? metro area where it is below freezing half the year?).

[PrideandGlory1776]

1) Create a poll
2) Give us numbers - Cost of Attendance - so we can provide more informed advise
3) Short term and long term goals
4) Qualitative factors
5) What kind of law do you want to practice?

[karateandfriendship]

Where do you have ties? What do you mean by "a metro"? The geographical options you will have are very different at UMinn than UVA. These are all great and viable options but to make the best choice you will need full information on debt, ties, and where you want to live (metro area near ocean? metro area of 2 million+ people? metro area where it is below freezing half the year?).

Good clarifications. By "metro," I suppose I mean to refer to the 20 or so largest U.S. metro areas, though I intend the term rather loosely. For whatever reason, I'm unfazed by the prospect of extreme Minnesotan winters. And I have ties to LA and the Texas markets.

[karateandfriendship]

1) Create a poll
2) Give us numbers - Cost of Attendance - so we can provide more informed advise
3) Short term and long term goals
4) Qualitative factors
5) What kind of law do you want to practice?

1) You got it.
2) Total COAs, per LST:
•UVA ($264k)
•Northwestern ($291k, pending scholarship decision)
•Texas ($125k)
•UCLA ($175k)
•Minnesota (COL only, conservatively $60k)
3) Short-term: earn J.D., gunning for a clerkship, be a lawyer
Long-term: continue being a lawyer
4) None comes to mind.
5) Still major litigation; I think I'd like complex civil or commercial.

[PrideandGlory1776]

K definitely Texas then ez choice /thread

[Otunga]

I like Texas here. You don't appear biglaw or bust, or otherwise I'd suggest UVA since it's the least expensive t14 option on display. While UVA would statistically be your best choice for a federal clerkship, it's not as though the rate of 8.3% at Texas is dominated by 14.3% at UVA, not to the point where it justifies spending $140,000 more anyway. Essentially, since you just stated your main goal as "be a lawyer", and supposing you'd be okay with staying in Texas after law school, Texas is according to TLS wisdom one of the better legal economies, and not to mention a quarter of the class attains biglaw at Texas, which taken collectively makes U of Texas reasonable.

[Savage13]

I have seen your little green dot on several LSN graphs. We have the same LSAT and both have substandard GPAs (although my GPA is considerably worse). Your situation seems like the quintessential T-14 at sticker vs Top 20 with $$$. I'm not sure what I can tell you that you don't already know, so I will just offer my take as I am in a similar situation.

250k+ is a terrifying amount of debt when it cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. I am not willing to commit myself to a situation that gives me the choice of Biglaw or the poorhouse. Earlier in the cycle, I considered 20 years of PAYE or 10 years for PSLF as a worst case scenario, but after the most recent FY budget proposal, it dawned on me that these programs can and likely will be used as leverage in budget negotiations at least several more times before we are eligible for discharge under either. Personally, I think the practice of law will present enough stress without this kind of uncertainty hanging over my head.

At some level, everyone wants to go to the school with the most prestige, whether it's HYS instead of CCN or T-14 instead of T20. Everyone wants a greater level of status and prestige, and this is the choice that is in front of us right now: more/better prestige/job placement or less. I tend to think that despite all the hand wringing on this internet forum over T6 vs T14 vs T20, we are ultimately going to rise and fall in our careers on the merits of our actual accomplishments in the practice of law. This is how it has always been, and is most likely how it will be for us.

With that being said, I'd pick Texas or Minnesota. I'm not sure if this is at all helpful, but at least it's another take from someone in a similar situation.

[BigZuck]

I think 125K is too much to pay for UT

Instate splitters with around your numbers got 20K a year at UT last cycle. Don't settle for anything less if that's where you decide to go.

UVA would give you a much better shot at TX big law and a better shot at a federal clerkship. Gun to my head and at these prices? Maybe I pick UVA? Might choose the bullet however.

[BigZuck]

I have seen your little green dot on several LSN graphs. We have the same LSAT and both have substandard GPAs (although my GPA is considerably worse). Your situation seems like the quintessential T-14 at sticker vs Top 20 with $$$. I'm not sure what I can tell you that you don't already know, so I will just offer my take as I am in a similar situation.

250k+ is a terrifying amount of debt when it cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. I am not willing to commit myself to a situation that gives me the choice of Biglaw or the poorhouse. Earlier in the cycle, I considered 20 years of PAYE or 10 years for PSLF as a worst case scenario, but after the most recent FY budget proposal, it dawned on me that these programs can and likely will be used as leverage in budget negotiations at least several more times before we are eligible for discharge under either. Personally, I think the practice of law will present enough stress without this kind of uncertainty hanging over my head.

At some level, everyone wants to go to the school with the most prestige, whether it's HYS instead of CCN or T-14 instead of T20. Everyone wants a greater level of status and prestige, and this is the choice that is in front of us right now: more/better prestige/job placement or less. I tend to think that despite all the hand wringing on this internet forum over T6 vs T14 vs T20, we are ultimately going to rise and fall in our careers on the merits of our actual accomplishments in the practice of law. This is how it has always been, and is most likely how it will be for us.

With that being said, I'd pick Texas or Minnesota. I'm not sure if this is at all helpful, but at least it's another take from someone in a similar situation.

Minnesota? Come on bro. That's terrible advice.

[whereskyle]

I think 125K is too much to pay for UT

Instate splitters with around your numbers got 20K a year at UT last cycle. Don't settle for anything less if that's where you decide to go.

UVA would give you a much better shot at TX big law and a better shot at a federal clerkship. Gun to my head and at these prices? Maybe I pick UVA? Might choose the bullet however.

OP may be willing to endure greater risk out of a sense of deserving such risk due to the GPA. These options are not desirable to me. If I loved Texas and loved practicing any law, then I might be willing to do UT. Hopefully NU gives you 15k to negotiate with. Then, UT might jump.

OP, you may want to add the option of "None" to your poll to measure that opinion.

[Savage13]

I have seen your little green dot on several LSN graphs. We have the same LSAT and both have substandard GPAs (although my GPA is considerably worse). Your situation seems like the quintessential T-14 at sticker vs Top 20 with $$$. I'm not sure what I can tell you that you don't already know, so I will just offer my take as I am in a similar situation.

250k+ is a terrifying amount of debt when it cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. I am not willing to commit myself to a situation that gives me the choice of Biglaw or the poorhouse. Earlier in the cycle, I considered 20 years of PAYE or 10 years for PSLF as a worst case scenario, but after the most recent FY budget proposal, it dawned on me that these programs can and likely will be used as leverage in budget negotiations at least several more times before we are eligible for discharge under either. Personally, I think the practice of law will present enough stress without this kind of uncertainty hanging over my head.

At some level, everyone wants to go to the school with the most prestige, whether it's HYS instead of CCN or T-14 instead of T20. Everyone wants a greater level of status and prestige, and this is the choice that is in front of us right now: more/better prestige/job placement or less. I tend to think that despite all the hand wringing on this internet forum over T6 vs T14 vs T20, we are ultimately going to rise and fall in our careers on the merits of our actual accomplishments in the practice of law. This is how it has always been, and is most likely how it will be for us.

With that being said, I'd pick Texas or Minnesota. I'm not sure if this is at all helpful, but at least it's another take from someone in a similar situation.

Minnesota? Come on bro. That's terrible advice.

He said his goal was to be a lawyer and was "geographically unconcerned, but would like to live in a metro." Taking a full ride at a strong regional that you wouldn't mind working in is not terrible advice.

[whereskyle]

I have seen your little green dot on several LSN graphs. We have the same LSAT and both have substandard GPAs (although my GPA is considerably worse). Your situation seems like the quintessential T-14 at sticker vs Top 20 with $$$. I'm not sure what I can tell you that you don't already know, so I will just offer my take as I am in a similar situation.

250k+ is a terrifying amount of debt when it cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. I am not willing to commit myself to a situation that gives me the choice of Biglaw or the poorhouse. Earlier in the cycle, I considered 20 years of PAYE or 10 years for PSLF as a worst case scenario, but after the most recent FY budget proposal, it dawned on me that these programs can and likely will be used as leverage in budget negotiations at least several more times before we are eligible for discharge under either. Personally, I think the practice of law will present enough stress without this kind of uncertainty hanging over my head.

At some level, everyone wants to go to the school with the most prestige, whether it's HYS instead of CCN or T-14 instead of T20. Everyone wants a greater level of status and prestige, and this is the choice that is in front of us right now: more/better prestige/job placement or less. I tend to think that despite all the hand wringing on this internet forum over T6 vs T14 vs T20, we are ultimately going to rise and fall in our careers on the merits of our actual accomplishments in the practice of law. This is how it has always been, and is most likely how it will be for us.

With that being said, I'd pick Texas or Minnesota. I'm not sure if this is at all helpful, but at least it's another take from someone in a similar situation.

Minnesota? Come on bro. That's terrible advice.

He said his goal was to be a lawyer and was "geographically unconcerned, but would like to live in a metro." Taking a full ride at a strong regional that you wouldn't mind working in is not terrible advice.

I agree with this. OP mentioned that OP is willing to do any law, but is OP willing to go to LS solely for any law without any real prospect of Fed. Clerkship or biglaw?

[BigZuck]

I have seen your little green dot on several LSN graphs. We have the same LSAT and both have substandard GPAs (although my GPA is considerably worse). Your situation seems like the quintessential T-14 at sticker vs Top 20 with $$$. I'm not sure what I can tell you that you don't already know, so I will just offer my take as I am in a similar situation.

250k+ is a terrifying amount of debt when it cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. I am not willing to commit myself to a situation that gives me the choice of Biglaw or the poorhouse. Earlier in the cycle, I considered 20 years of PAYE or 10 years for PSLF as a worst case scenario, but after the most recent FY budget proposal, it dawned on me that these programs can and likely will be used as leverage in budget negotiations at least several more times before we are eligible for discharge under either. Personally, I think the practice of law will present enough stress without this kind of uncertainty hanging over my head.

At some level, everyone wants to go to the school with the most prestige, whether it's HYS instead of CCN or T-14 instead of T20. Everyone wants a greater level of status and prestige, and this is the choice that is in front of us right now: more/better prestige/job placement or less. I tend to think that despite all the hand wringing on this internet forum over T6 vs T14 vs T20, we are ultimately going to rise and fall in our careers on the merits of our actual accomplishments in the practice of law. This is how it has always been, and is most likely how it will be for us.

With that being said, I'd pick Texas or Minnesota. I'm not sure if this is at all helpful, but at least it's another take from someone in a similar situation.

Minnesota? Come on bro. That's terrible advice.

He said his goal was to be a lawyer and was "geographically unconcerned, but would like to live in a metro." Taking a full ride at a strong regional that you wouldn't mind working in is not terrible advice.

He's aiming for big law and maybe a federal clerkship, both of which would be extremely hard to get out of Minnesota. Especially for a Texan without any MN ties.

The U is fine if you have ties to Minnesota and want to work there long term and aren't particularly interested in big law. That's not the OP. Going to Minnesota would be a colossal mistake for the OP to make.

[transferror]

Texas w/o hesitation

[shifty_eyed]

I don't think $125k is too much for TX as a splitter. But try to negotiate with your Minn and UCLA offers.

[Savage13]

I have seen your little green dot on several LSN graphs. We have the same LSAT and both have substandard GPAs (although my GPA is considerably worse). Your situation seems like the quintessential T-14 at sticker vs Top 20 with $$$. I'm not sure what I can tell you that you don't already know, so I will just offer my take as I am in a similar situation.

250k+ is a terrifying amount of debt when it cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. I am not willing to commit myself to a situation that gives me the choice of Biglaw or the poorhouse. Earlier in the cycle, I considered 20 years of PAYE or 10 years for PSLF as a worst case scenario, but after the most recent FY budget proposal, it dawned on me that these programs can and likely will be used as leverage in budget negotiations at least several more times before we are eligible for discharge under either. Personally, I think the practice of law will present enough stress without this kind of uncertainty hanging over my head.

At some level, everyone wants to go to the school with the most prestige, whether it's HYS instead of CCN or T-14 instead of T20. Everyone wants a greater level of status and prestige, and this is the choice that is in front of us right now: more/better prestige/job placement or less. I tend to think that despite all the hand wringing on this internet forum over T6 vs T14 vs T20, we are ultimately going to rise and fall in our careers on the merits of our actual accomplishments in the practice of law. This is how it has always been, and is most likely how it will be for us.

With that being said, I'd pick Texas or Minnesota. I'm not sure if this is at all helpful, but at least it's another take from someone in a similar situation.

Minnesota? Come on bro. That's terrible advice.

He said his goal was to be a lawyer and was "geographically unconcerned, but would like to live in a metro." Taking a full ride at a strong regional that you wouldn't mind working in is not terrible advice.

He's aiming for big law and maybe a federal clerkship, both of which would be extremely hard to get out of Minnesota. Especially for a Texan without any MN ties.

The U is fine if you have ties to Minnesota and want to work there long term and aren't particularly interested in big law. That's not the OP. Going to Minnesota would be a colossal mistake for the OP to make.

For the record, I do think Texas is a better choice. Maybe I am reading too much in between the lines, but statements like this make me think OP is not Biglaw or bust:

3) Short-term: earn J.D., gunning for a clerkship, be a lawyer
Long-term: continue being a lawyer

Obviously, we have different perspectives on what constitutes a colossal mistake. Pushing 250k-290k chips to the middle of the table is fine, but you'd better win. Missing on a clerkship and Biglaw while ending up with that kind of debt sounds more like a colossal mistake to me than conceding both in order to get a free (albeit frost covered) JD.

But as other have said, Texas is probably the best choice here. OP has reasonable debt and still a good shot at Texas Biglaw or a clerkship with a Texas judge.

[ManoftheHour]

No one is going to tell you to retake with a 173. lol It's not like, "Hey guys, I have a 4.0 and a 156. Should I go to TTT or TTT?"

You made it. Put yourself in the best position you can.

Given your goals, I'd go Texas.

[Law Sauce]

UVA here. It gives you more than double the best chance of breaking into the big law world. Also better for TX big law, it's better for big law everywhere else, better for clerkships etc. etc. It is not an easy choice, but it is a choice that will effect the rest of your career/life. I think I would go to UVA here, but I do suppose that it does depend on your goals, which are not really clear to me, and probably not really clear to you yet…

Also, UVa grads from TX often have a relatively easy time getting back to big law in TX...

[northwood]

A lot of posters say go to the school that gives you the best chance to pay off the debt quicker( biglaw), But what if you don't finish high enough in the class to get biglaw? How will you be able to handle paying off the loan amount on a small- law salary? With ties to TX, it would be easier to convince small firms that you are not a flight risk. At other places- perhaps you can, but it would take a lot more effort to convince them ( which is why id go TX over Minnesota)

Its easy to say yeah, I can pay off $200,000 before interest, when it is still not a reality. But when 3L comes around ( or sooner if you drop out) and the reality of your financial commitment starts to comes home, it becomes even more daunting....

Take a look at a repayment calculator, and calculate that payment with your current living expenses. That is what your bills are likely to look like in 3 years 9 months from mid may 2014 ( when your deferment ends for incoming 1Ls) Does it change anything?

[whereskyle]

What does 125k (UT COA) w.o. TX Biglaw look like, OP?

[BigZuck]

What does 125k (UT COA) w.o. TX Biglaw look like, OP?

Yeah, this is what makes me leery of UT at 125K. And that's the most likely outcome for the OP.

[El Principe]

I'll see you at Texas OP....

But if you really really want to spend 250K for a marginal increase at a clerkship chance, go to UVA. I wouldn't do Minn, probably wouldn't do UCLA because, at best, I've heard inconsistent data concerning California schools and ties from out of staters & Northwestern w/o $$$ <<<<<<<<< UVA w/o money.

So Texas >>>>>>>>>> UVA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UCLA >>>>>>>> NW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minn (only because I'm oblivious in terms of their big law hiring and you'd have to do a TON of legwork via networking and mass mailing to get a non-Biglaw job in "metro" area coming from there)

[furrrman]

At UVA you double your debt but (almost) double your chance at reaching your goals. 2012 biglaw + fed clerkships at UVA is 62%, and TX is 35%. It seems to me that striking out at either school would not be an ideal situation, but at least UVA gives you the better odds.

Assuming you don't get any more money offers I would take my chances at UVA.

[PrideandGlory1776]

250k+ is a terrifying amount of debt when it cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. I am not willing to commit myself to a situation that gives me the choice of Biglaw or the poorhouse. Earlier in the cycle, I considered 20 years of PAYE or 10 years for PSLF as a worst case scenario, but after the most recent FY budget proposal, it dawned on me that these programs can and likely will be used as leverage in budget negotiations at least several more times before we are eligible for discharge under either. Personally, I think the practice of law will present enough stress without this kind of uncertainty hanging over my head.

At some level, everyone wants to go to the school with the most prestige, whether it's HYS instead of CCN or T-14 instead of T20. Everyone wants a greater level of status and prestige, and this is the choice that is in front of us right now: more/better prestige/job placement or less. I tend to think that despite all the hand wringing on this internet forum over T6 vs T14 vs T20, we are ultimately going to rise and fall in our careers on the merits of our actual accomplishments in the practice of law. This is how it has always been, and is most likely how it will be for us.

I've been looking at TLS for 2 years and I've yet to read anything so succinct, beautiful or profound - you've put into words what I've always believed but could not articulate half as eloquently - thank you sir - yes +1 this is exactly what everyone on TLS should read every morning and every night - this is everything in every thread in a nutshell. Yes.