Virginia school-funded positions

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monsterman

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Virginia school-funded positions

Postby monsterman » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:47 am

Can anyone speak to the quality of school-funded jobs at UVA? Their 15% of grads employed by the school is rather disconcerting, especially if they are the low-caliber jobs that pay 15 dollars per hour.

LST also shows NYU places double digits into school-funded positions and other top schools very close to the double digits.

So, are these jobs substantially different than the school-funded jobs at lower-ranked schools? I couldn't find anything by searching, so any knowledge on this is appreciated!

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby noobishned » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:54 am

I'm sure someone else will confirm or deny this, but I remember reading that the school funded number includes a lot of grads in PI jobs that UVA helps subsidize. It seems like a really high number but a lot of those kids will keep their jobs when the subsidization ends.

At least, this was my impression. I could very well be very wrong.

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Law Sauce

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby Law Sauce » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:59 am

To a lot of PI people, school-funded fellowships are a positive way to break into and show commitment to PI

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Otunga

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby Otunga » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:00 pm

Will the school pay you to work for a private employer?

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby klm550 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:17 pm

UVA calls them the Robert F. Kennedy Fellowships. Basically, you get $31,500 for one year (though the school wants you to find a job ASAP) to work in public service. People have used them to work at nonprofits, prosecutor and PD offices, Legal Aid places, government agencies, and even used them to land clerkships. Many public interest students have used them to get their foot into the door at organizations and have ended up getting hired permanently at the places they worked at.

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monsterman

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby monsterman » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:20 pm

Thanks, that's really helpful. And it's more encouraging than admissions jobs or something. I wonder how much, if any of those fellowships are a result of self-selection.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:44 pm

Otunga wrote:Will the school pay you to work for a private employer?

Why should they?

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:49 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Otunga wrote:Will the school pay you to work for a private employer?

Why should they?


Why should they pay you to intern somewhere?

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worldtraveler

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:52 pm

monsterman wrote:Thanks, that's really helpful. And it's more encouraging than admissions jobs or something. I wonder how much, if any of those fellowships are a result of self-selection.


It's likely a combination of self-selection and poor employment prospects for some grads. For PI students, anyone who isn't insanely lucky to get an outside fellowship, they will most likely need a school funded one, making this a desired prospect rather than a failure. If you wanted big law or some other option and end up on this program, it's probably not a good outcome.

A good way to tell would be to see how many student opt out of OCI or only do limited OCI for gov employers or plaintiff side firms. Only people 100% dedicated to PI would do that. If roughly 15% of students are opting out and 15% are on fellowships, there is likely a lot of overlap there.

I don't know anyone from UVA on a fellowship, but I do know people from most other top schools on them and a lot of people are using it to work with an organization that would normally never hire a recent grad and so they are getting pretty great experience.

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Otunga

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby Otunga » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:14 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Otunga wrote:Will the school pay you to work for a private employer?

Why should they?


Why should they pay you to intern somewhere?


No assumptions necessarily made - but I guess it affirms that biglaw people that didn't get biglaw end up working for the school in some generic admissions capacity or something.

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:16 pm

Otunga wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Otunga wrote:Will the school pay you to work for a private employer?

Why should they?


Why should they pay you to intern somewhere?


No assumptions necessarily made - but I guess it affirms that biglaw people that didn't get biglaw end up working for the school in some generic admissions capacity or something.


PI people have a harder time finding PI than private practice folks finding big law. PI hiring is tough, random, and rare.

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bowser

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby bowser » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:25 pm

Otunga wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Otunga wrote:Will the school pay you to work for a private employer?

Why should they?


Why should they pay you to intern somewhere?


No assumptions necessarily made - but I guess it affirms that biglaw people who didn't get biglaw end up working for the school in some generic admissions capacity or something.


That's not true, as far as I know. For most people who wanted Biglaw and didn't get it, they do some reassessing. A lot end up working in school-funded positions for various reasons, probably the most important of which is to gain experience. Some have decided that non-Biglaw entry-level private sector work isn't that appealing (for legitimate reasons).

It's a mess and terrible and very alarming that good law schools have to fund employment for 10% of their graduates, but they're not scams in the sense that they pay you to lick stamps so their employment stats look good, or whatever. That is pretty counterproductive all around.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:49 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Otunga wrote:Will the school pay you to work for a private employer?

Why should they?

Why should they pay you to intern somewhere?

I'm thinking of the labor laws and the whole prohibition on interning without pay for a for-profit institution. I think a school essentially supporting you while you volunteer for a non-profit entity is very different from a school subsidizing you to volunteer for a private employer that's making a profit off your work. If the partners (or whatever structure is in place) in a private company are being enriched by your work, you should get paid (by them) for it. No one at a non-profit makes more money because more work gets done.

(But to be clear: I have no idea if schools share this point of view or if Virginia funds people to work for private employers or not. I'd be slightly surprised if they do, for the reasons above, but I can't say that they don't.)

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Tom Joad

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby Tom Joad » Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:53 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Otunga wrote:Will the school pay you to work for a private employer?

Why should they?

Why should they pay you to intern somewhere?

I'm thinking of the labor laws and the whole prohibition on interning without pay for a for-profit institution. I think a school essentially supporting you while you volunteer for a non-profit entity is very different from a school subsidizing you to volunteer for a private employer that's making a profit off your work. If the partners (or whatever structure is in place) in a private company are being enriched by your work, you should get paid (by them) for it. No one at a non-profit makes more money because more work gets done.

(But to be clear: I have no idea if schools share this point of view or if Virginia funds people to work for private employers or not. I'd be slightly surprised if they do, for the reasons above, but I can't say that they don't.)

It's not really that different. It just allows the higher up boomers at the non-profit to draw bigger salaries for themselves.

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Tiago Splitter

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:17 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm thinking of the labor laws and the whole prohibition on interning without pay for a for-profit institution. I think a school essentially supporting you while you volunteer for a non-profit entity is very different from a school subsidizing you to volunteer for a private employer that's making a profit off your work. If the partners (or whatever structure is in place) in a private company are being enriched by your work, you should get paid (by them) for it. No one at a non-profit makes more money because more work gets done.

As Joad said there's really not much difference. FWIW, schools like SMU and Duke have programs where they will pay private employers to hire people on a short term basis.

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monsterman

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby monsterman » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:42 pm

So it's safe to say the shitty school-funded jobs at T2s are largely not comparable to the T14?

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:43 pm

monsterman wrote:So it's safe to say the shitty school-funded jobs at T2s are largely not comparable to the T14?


No, they are problem the same. Just internships the schools gives you a stipend for.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:43 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm thinking of the labor laws and the whole prohibition on interning without pay for a for-profit institution. I think a school essentially supporting you while you volunteer for a non-profit entity is very different from a school subsidizing you to volunteer for a private employer that's making a profit off your work. If the partners (or whatever structure is in place) in a private company are being enriched by your work, you should get paid (by them) for it. No one at a non-profit makes more money because more work gets done.

As Joad said there's really not much difference. FWIW, schools like SMU and Duke have programs where they will pay private employers to hire people on a short term basis.

I never know when Joad is actually serious. But I mean, if you don't see a difference you don't see a difference, I guess.

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Tiago Splitter

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:54 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I never know when Joad is actually serious. But I mean, if you don't see a difference you don't see a difference, I guess.

From the student's perspective it's unemployment vs. getting paid to work. That's the only difference they care about.

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worldtraveler

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:00 pm

monsterman wrote:So it's safe to say the shitty school-funded jobs at T2s are largely not comparable to the T14?


There are some with the same type of programs. Others pay people to work in the library, so it's tough to make a blanket statement.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:22 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I never know when Joad is actually serious. But I mean, if you don't see a difference you don't see a difference, I guess.

From the student's perspective it's unemployment vs. getting paid to work. That's the only difference they care about.

But it's not just about the student's perspective.

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Otunga

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby Otunga » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:25 pm

On its face, I don't see a lot wrong with a school funding a private internship, that is, if they've literally exhausted all other potential legal job routes. Can anyone who opposes it explain why it is?

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby dresden doll » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:29 pm

Tom Joad wrote:(But to be clear: I have no idea if schools share this point of view or if Virginia funds people to work for private employers or not. I'd be slightly surprised if they do, for the reasons above, but I can't say that they don't.)

It's not really that different. It just allows the higher up boomers at the non-profit to draw bigger salaries for themselves.[/quote]

It doesn't boost anyone's salary. It just allows the staff to become less overloaded by having an extra person around to help with the work.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:34 pm

Otunga wrote:On its face, I don't see a lot wrong with a school funding a private internship, that is, if they've literally exhausted all other potential legal job routes. Can anyone who opposes it explain why it is?

Because, like I said, school funded positions with private employers increase those employers' personal profits. That's not the case for non-profit entities. If a private employer personally benefits from your work, they should pay you. (Also, the labor department draws a distinction.)

But as you can see, it's not a popular opinion around here. :D

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Otunga

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Re: Virginia school-funded positions

Postby Otunga » Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:47 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Otunga wrote:On its face, I don't see a lot wrong with a school funding a private internship, that is, if they've literally exhausted all other potential legal job routes. Can anyone who opposes it explain why it is?

Because, like I said, school funded positions with private employers increase those employers' personal profits. That's not the case for non-profit entities. If a private employer personally benefits from your work, they should pay you. (Also, the labor department draws a distinction.)

But as you can see, it's not a popular opinion around here. :D


That makes sense, but at the same time, the worker is getting compensated, and assuming it's at a comparable rate of what the firm would pay them, I'm good with it. That said, if private practices are seeking out workers paid by their schools like leaches, that's problematic. It should be a last resort - not something constantly desired.



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