What's the deal with GULC Forum

[Princetonlaw68]

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[m079]

It is very short-sighted to perceive that the majority of GULC students think the way you do. GULC is by far the biggest "feeder" school for government and PI. That's one substantial reason why people choose to go to law school in DC. As a GULC student who worked in government, I know more people interested in PI/gov than big law. Gov/PI is not by default easier than big law. Like you said, all you need for big law is grades. But for JAG, DOJ, and other positions to which HUNDREDS of students across the country apply but only a few get into, good grades is never enough. You have to be able to offer something else. Especially now that big law jobs are becoming more scarce, the competition is especially fierce and for a good PI/gov job, you're going to have to truly gun for it and demonstrate genuine interest. Also, as a fed, I know many fellow feds who come from big law. If you think all law students surely must want to go into big law, you clearly have not done the research to understand the differences between big law and gov't. Wise people who have done the research understand the merits of each and pick the one they know will make them the most successful and satisfied lawyer they can be.

[hunter.d]

I can't speak to the student body at other schools but I can speak specifically to multiple classmates of mine who are definitely not interested in biglaw. A few them have said they don't even see the point of going through OCI. Whether they do or don't has nothing to do with GULC's yearly employment statistics which don't measure OCI but year end employment.

Government and PI is very difficult to break into. You need to demonstrate interest consistently in the narrow focus of the organization (education, homelessness, human rights). Remember that it isn't even a bad financial choice if you really want to do that if you are going at sticker or near sticker (LRAP).

Georgetown has the highest public interest score one way or another and is located in DC (non-profit capital) and not NY (biglaw capital). Also, new NLJ data shows about 38% biglaw, plus historical average of 5ish% Art. III clerkships (could have done biglaw) + your formula of 10% self-select (which is pretty conservative). Put its at over 50%.

I wouldn't argue that Georgetown doesn't have the 14th best biglaw placement statistics. But it has top 5 PI/Gov't statistics. TLSers might be shocked to find that people really don't want biglaw, for a multitude of reasons, but its true. You can't argue that Georgetown's employment states are in the bottom of the T-14 but its clearly better than T15 down and not as bad as the biglaw numbers alone make them look.

[hunter.d]

It is very short-sighted to perceive that the majority of GULC students think the way you do. GULC is by far the biggest "feeder" school for government and PI. That's one substantial reason why people choose to go to law school in DC. As a GULC student who works in government, I know more people interested in PI/gov than big law. Gov/PI is not by default easier than big law. Like you said, all you need for big law is grades. But for JAG, DOJ, and other positions to which HUNDREDS of students across the country apply but only a few get into, good grades is never enough. You have to be able to offer something else. Especially now that big law jobs are becoming more scarce, the competition is especially fierce and for a good PI/gov job, you're going to have to truly gun for it and demonstrate genuine interest. Also, as a fed, I know many fellow feds who come from big law. If you think all law students surely must want to go into big law, you clearly have not done the research to understand the differences between big law and gov't. Wise people who have done the research understand the merits of each and pick the one they know will make them the most successful and satisfied lawyer they can be.

[Princetonlaw68]

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[Tiago Splitter]

Back in 2005, GULC placed less than 10% of its grads into government positions. In 2012, GULC placed 15% of its grads into government positions. PI also shot up rapidly. This while government and PI hiring became harder, not easier. Make of that what you will.

[hunter.d]

It is very short-sighted to perceive that the majority of GULC students think the way you do. GULC is by far the biggest "feeder" school for government and PI. That's one substantial reason why people choose to go to law school in DC. As a GULC student who works in government, I know more people interested in PI/gov than big law. Gov/PI is not by default easier than big law. Like you said, all you need for big law is grades. But for JAG, DOJ, and other positions to which HUNDREDS of students across the country apply but only a few get into, good grades is never enough. You have to be able to offer something else. Especially now that big law jobs are becoming more scarce, the competition is especially fierce and for a good PI/gov job, you're going to have to truly gun for it and demonstrate genuine interest. Also, as a fed, I know many fellow feds who come from big law. If you think all law students surely must want to go into big law, you clearly have not done the research to understand the differences between big law and gov't. Wise people who have done the research understand the merits of each and pick the one they know will make them the most successful and satisfied lawyer they can be.

I understand what you're saying and I'm not saying no one wants PI more than big law. Let's say someone does want PI more, then during law school decides maybe I might as well just try for big law, because I can get into PI after anyway." Ok that's fine, but that person is more competition for big law. My post is not meant to insult anyone who wants to do PI or Gov. All I'm trying to do is see if a more accurate picture of the competition for big law can be created. Just because someone might go into school wanting PI and ends up doing PI doesn't mean that person can't also be competition for big law. Just because someone guns for PI/gov as first choice doesn't mean he/she can't be more competition for big law. Am I wrong?

They certainly could be. And I take everybody's point about GULC's biglaw placement. But at the end of the day I think there is a clearly higher self-selection than at other schools which makes their biglaw placement look worse then it "is" in the sense that those students could have landed it if they wanted.

[Princetonlaw68]

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[Princetonlaw68]

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[hunter.d]

Back in 2005, GULC placed less than 10% of its grads into government positions. In 2012, GULC placed 15% of its grads into government positions. PI also shot up rapidly. This while government and PI hiring became harder, not easier. Make of that what you will.

This seems to be in line with my thought process, I think?

Plus another 10% in 2012 in PI positions.

[hunter.d]

Back in 2005, GULC placed less than 10% of its grads into government positions. In 2012, GULC placed 15% of its grads into government positions. PI also shot up rapidly. This while government and PI hiring became harder, not easier. Make of that what you will.

Actually, just to clarify, does anyone know if GULC had the same scholarship programs for people doing PI/Gov in 2005 as they do now. That variable could affect this as well.

Not scholarships: LRAP / PAYE which is significantly stronger now then in 2005 then now. If you are a 0L I recommend you take a good look at loan repayment programs before choosing to go to a school.

[Tiago Splitter]

Back in 2005, GULC placed less than 10% of its grads into government positions. In 2012, GULC placed 15% of its grads into government positions. PI also shot up rapidly. This while government and PI hiring became harder, not easier. Make of that what you will.

This seems to be in line with my thought process, I think?

Plus another 10% in 2012 in PI positions.

*14%

[Princetonlaw68]

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[Cicero76]

Ugh. I hate GULC threads.

The main problem I see with GULC: their scholarships and LRAP programs suck. Really, really suck. In fact they border on terrible. To pump up your "PI" and "government" focus and sell all your students on saving the world while saddling them with a debt load only Biglaw can fill is dishonest to me. I don't buy their "just sign up for PAYE" thing either, because it's hard to say your school's mission is serving the public and the government when you fleece that same public to pay your absurd tuition.

[nicholasavallone]

I'm curious what impact the PT program has upon GULC's biglaw employment rate. They count the PT grads in the numbers for any given year, adding about 100, or 16 percent to the total. If PT students aren't getting biglaw, then that may account for some of the anecdotal difference between GULC biglaw prospects, (which according to GULC students don't seem as bad as the rep would suggest) and the LST "reality." All I've noticed is that there is no differentiation between PT and FT in employment data, just this out there as a possibility, though if somebody can refute, go to it.

[twenty]

For what it's worth, GULC's literature for part time students seems to suggest that many PT students willingly opt out of OCI.

because it's hard to say your school's mission is serving the public and the government when you fleece that same public to pay your absurd tuition.

>_>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_tower

[nicholasavallone]

From LST, 248 students landed 101+ attorney jobs (the site's definition of large firm). Assuming (big assumption) that almost all of these are from the FT program, the number goes up closer to 50 percent biggish law, which is way more in line with other T-14s. I get that people have had bad experiences trying to place into DC, but when you go beyond the GULC sucks echo chamber that seems to exist, the number might not be that bad.

[Princetonlaw68]

I'm curious what impact the PT program has upon GULC's biglaw employment rate. They count the PT grads in the numbers for any given year, adding about 100, or 16 percent to the total. If PT students aren't getting biglaw, then that may account for some of the anecdotal difference between GULC biglaw prospects, (which according to GULC students don't seem as bad as the rep would suggest) and the LST "reality." All I've noticed is that there is no differentiation between PT and FT in employment data, just this out there as a possibility, though if somebody can refute, go to it.

You bring up a great point. I didn't think of that. Anyone know of any way we could gain access to some hard numbers pertaining to this?

[Tiago Splitter]

From LST, 248 students landed 101+ attorney jobs (the site's definition of large firm). Assuming (big assumption) that almost all of these are from the FT program, the number goes up closer to 50 percent biggish law, which is way more in line with other T-14s. I get that people have had bad experiences trying to place into DC, but when you go beyond the GULC sucks echo chamber that seems to exist, the number might not be that bad.

But therein lies the problem with GULC. You have to come up with fictional scenarios for it to even look "not that bad." Perhaps there really is massive self-selection into government and PI, self-selection that didn't exist back in 2005. Perhaps every part timer skips OCI and plans to just go back to a JD advantage job. The nice thing about the rest of the T-14 is that in most years we don't have to play this guessing game. You have to look at the numbers conservatively when you're putting 200k on the line, and in that light GULC just doesn't stack up.

[worldtraveler]

Can any GULC student explain to me why PI organizations have to hire summer interns through some annoying program with your CDO and you guys can't just apply? IMO that is a bullshit idea that just creates more work for people and makes them less likely to recruit there.

[nicholasavallone]

But therein lies the problem with GULC. You have to come up with fictional scenarios for it to even look "not that bad." Perhaps there really is massive self-selection into government and PI, self-selection that didn't exist back in 2005. Perhaps every part timer skips OCI and plans to just go back to a JD advantage job. The nice thing about the rest of the T-14 is that in most years we don't have to play this guessing game. You have to look at the numbers conservatively when you're putting 200k on the line, and in that light GULC just doesn't stack up.

I guess my big problem is that everybody makes it seem like GULC is an objectively terrible option for biglaw, without taking into account the PT program's impact on the numbers. Without PT, the percentage is right in line with Duke and NU, and a little below Cornell for biglaw. Not saying its on par with HYS, and its fed clerkship numbers aren't great even compared with DNC, but I don't think its out of line to suggest that paying for GULC isn't the biglaw world ender that everybody makes it out to be, especially since firms do recruit from median at OCI.

[Tiago Splitter]

But therein lies the problem with GULC. You have to come up with fictional scenarios for it to even look "not that bad." Perhaps there really is massive self-selection into government and PI, self-selection that didn't exist back in 2005. Perhaps every part timer skips OCI and plans to just go back to a JD advantage job. The nice thing about the rest of the T-14 is that in most years we don't have to play this guessing game. You have to look at the numbers conservatively when you're putting 200k on the line, and in that light GULC just doesn't stack up.

I guess my big problem is that everybody makes it seem like GULC is an objectively terrible option for biglaw, without taking into account the PT program's impact on the numbers. Without PT, the percentage is right in line with Duke and NU, and a little below Cornell for biglaw. Not saying its on par with HYS, and its fed clerkship numbers aren't great even compared with DNC, but I don't think its out of line to suggest that paying for GULC isn't the biglaw world ender that everybody makes it out to be, especially since firms do recruit from median at OCI.

But what is the impact of the part time students? As far as I can tell we're just guessing. If you have concrete information that says those students largely opt out of OCI I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

[Princetonlaw68]

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[twenty]

The only data that's going to solve this big mystery is: what percentage of students that participate in OCI end up getting offers?

[Princetonlaw68]

The only data that's going to solve this big mystery is: what percentage of students that participate in OCI end up getting offers?

Even if we did get that data, I feel it wouldn't completely solve the mystery because even if PT students do participate in OCI at the same rate as FT students, if law firms look at PT students less favorably than FT students, the percent chance of landing big law from GULC as a FT student would still be misrepresented.