What's the deal with GULC Forum

[nicholasavallone]

But what is the impact of the part time students? As far as I can tell we're just guessing. If you have concrete information that says those students largely opt out of OCI I'm sure we'd all love to see it.

Yeah, the only concrete info I was able to find is twenty's info, where the PT student handbook spends a couple paragraphs talking about large firm's hiring structure (summer associate, ect) and says that you need to find a SA position third year. The wording kind of makes it seem like you're on your own, but I really wish the ABA split the two programs so we could all have a real look at the outcomes. Kind of a unique position, since GULC is the only T14 with a legitimate PT program from my understanding, but it might save a lot of TLS rage.

*edit* as anecdata, all the GULC EIW employment thread students from 2013 were FT, from what I could tell.

[Ambi-Turner]

The only data that's going to solve this big mystery is: what percentage of students that participate in OCI end up getting offers?

Even if we did get that data, I feel it wouldn't completely solve the mystery because even if PT students do participate in OCI at the same rate as FT students, if law firms look at PT students less favorably than FT students, the percent chance of landing big law from GULC as a FT student would still be misrepresented.

Why would you think that they would look at PT students less favorably? Are you assuming they're doing PT without a full time job? My firm in DC (350+ attorneys worldwide, so mid-biglaw depending on who you ask) generally looks favorably on PT applicants because it shows they can balance their responsibilities well.

[Princetonlaw68]

Not that this gives any real answers but I thought it was relevant to this discussion: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=212773

(To the poster above, this link seems to support what you're saying. To NicholasVallone, looks like they definitely can and do participate in OCI. Don't know if it's at a lower rate than FT students though.)

[akg144]

Ugh. I hate GULC threads.

The main problem I see with GULC: their scholarships and LRAP programs suck. Really, really suck. In fact they border on terrible. To pump up your "PI" and "government" focus and sell all your students on saving the world while saddling them with a debt load only Biglaw can fill is dishonest to me. I don't buy their "just sign up for PAYE" thing either, because it's hard to say your school's mission is serving the public and the government when you fleece that same public to pay your absurd tuition.

I think your a bit confused - It's not fleecing the public if that's precisely what Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program was created to do - to incentivize the public interest / gov / non-profit legal sector so highly capable individuals might consider bypassing other lucrative private-firm opportunities to serve the public good.

[Cicero76]

Ugh. I hate GULC threads.

The main problem I see with GULC: their scholarships and LRAP programs suck. Really, really suck. In fact they border on terrible. To pump up your "PI" and "government" focus and sell all your students on saving the world while saddling them with a debt load only Biglaw can fill is dishonest to me. I don't buy their "just sign up for PAYE" thing either, because it's hard to say your school's mission is serving the public and the government when you fleece that same public to pay your absurd tuition.

I think your a bit confused - It's not fleecing the public if that's precisely what Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program was created to do - to incentivize the public interest / gov / non-profit legal sector so highly capable individuals might consider bypassing other lucrative private-firm opportunities to serve the public good.

You are confusing PSLF with PAYE. I have no problem with PSLF. But GULC promotes PAYE as a failsafe for its students who don't qualify for PSLF, which basically means they're just passing on their 50k tuition bill to taxpayers without putting their own skin in the game.

[hunter.d]

PT isn't the answer. While more of them self-select (they already have something lined up, a good chunk of lobbyist), they generally have strong softs so no reason to think they do worse.

GULC was at about 38% NLJ in 2013. They have more people who self-select into PI/GOV than other schools. MI was 41% at NLJ and even UVA was 44%. Basically, they are competitive with the bottom tier T14 in terms of biglaw if you want it. That's all.

[BmoreOrLess]

You are confusing PSLF with PAYE. I have no problem with PSLF. But GULC promotes PAYE as a failsafe for its students who don't qualify for PSLF, which basically means they're just passing on their 50k tuition bill to taxpayers without putting their own skin in the game.

All schools do this.

[Cicero76]

You are confusing PSLF with PAYE. I have no problem with PSLF. But GULC promotes PAYE as a failsafe for its students who don't qualify for PSLF, which basically means they're just passing on their 50k tuition bill to taxpayers without putting their own skin in the game.

All schools do this.

All schools don't do this, and if they did it wouldn't make it right. GULC is just particularly egregious to me because of the way they pump it up as though it has no downsides

[akg144]

Ugh. I hate GULC threads.

The main problem I see with GULC: their scholarships and LRAP programs suck. Really, really suck. In fact they border on terrible. To pump up your "PI" and "government" focus and sell all your students on saving the world while saddling them with a debt load only Biglaw can fill is dishonest to me. I don't buy their "just sign up for PAYE" thing either, because it's hard to say your school's mission is serving the public and the government when you fleece that same public to pay your absurd tuition.

I think your a bit confused - It's not fleecing the public if that's precisely what Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program was created to do - to incentivize the public interest / gov / non-profit legal sector so highly capable individuals might consider bypassing other lucrative private-firm opportunities to serve the public good.

You are confusing PSLF with PAYE. I have no problem with PSLF. But GULC promotes PAYE as a failsafe for its students who don't qualify for PSLF, which basically means they're just passing on their 50k tuition bill to taxpayers without putting their own skin in the game.

Ah ok my apologies your right I misunderstood your critique if PAYE is indeed what is deemed as the catch-all panacea for debt that would be problematic position. I don't know one way or another if that is indeed what GULC promotes as opposed to other options or compared with others schools but if that is in fact the case I agree that in principle it would be quite difficult to defend.

[Robespierre]

GULC PT student here. The truth is (as usual) between the two extremes.

We have a large contingent of people, both FT and PT, who want Gov/PI, and came to D.C. with that in mind. But yes, we also produce a lot of people who want Biglaw, can't get it, and go Gov/PI as a Plan B.

We have about 60 part-timers. A big chunk of them are not interested in Biglaw and don't even sign up for OCI. But yes, a chunk are very much interested in Biglaw; I know because I'm one of them.

Bottom line: According to the ABA data, GULC placed 39% of the Class of 2012 in Biglaw. It looks like that will be more like ~45% for Class of 2013 based on the NLJ250 data and the Dean's emails to the student body. I'd estimate (repeat: estimate) that 75% of the class wants Biglaw as its first choice. So, in the abstract, you've got roughly a 60% chance of getting Biglaw if that's what you want upon entry into school (45/75). [Obviously, chances go radically up or down with good or bad grades, good or bad interview skills, URM or not, and other factors.]

That's about as specific as you can get. As has been mentioned, there's no hard data - nor could there ever be - on how many people really want Gov/PI and how many PT'ers really want Biglaw.

[Princetonlaw68]

GULC PT student here. The truth is (as usual) between the two extremes.

We have a large contingent of people, both FT and PT, who want Gov/PI, and came to D.C. with that in mind. But yes, we also produce a lot of people who want Biglaw, can't get it, and go Gov/PI as a Plan B.

We have about 60 part-timers. A big chunk of them are not interested in Biglaw and don't even sign up for OCI. But yes, a chunk are very much interested in Biglaw; I know because I'm one of them.

Bottom line: According to the ABA data, GULC placed 39% of the Class of 2012 in Biglaw. It looks like that will be more like ~45% for Class of 2013 based on the NLJ250 data and the Dean's emails to the student body. I'd estimate (repeat: estimate) that 75% of the class wants Biglaw as its first choice. So, in the abstract, you've got roughly a 60% chance of getting Biglaw if that's what you want upon entry into school (45/75). [Obviously, chances go radically up or down with good or bad grades, good or bad interview skills, URM or not, and other factors.]

That's about as specific as you can get. As has been mentioned, there's no hard data - nor could there ever be - on how many people really want Gov/PI and how many PT'ers really want Biglaw.

Thanks a lot. Most helpful and useful response yet.