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Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:46 pm
by HorseThief
jbagelboy wrote:I think it's somewhat irresponsible to label an LRW "graded" if it doesn't factor into GPA/honors at the school. For example, at CLS we consider our LPW (legal writing equivalent) to be "ungraded" since it's not included in calculation of GPA/class honors (even though we don't release an official class rank) and it is therefore distinct from the "Graded" curriculum on an A/A-/B+/B scale.

Other schools with "High Pass/Pass/Fail" structures may still be "graded" in the sense that the class has non-zero weight on class rank/some impact on latin honors - those would be more appropriate metrics for incoming 0L's.

tl;dr, UVA, CLS, ect (and possibly other schools with letter grades in common law curriculum) do not have Graded LRW.


Updated to reflect this. Thanks.

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:48 pm
by HorseThief
rickgrimes69 wrote:
HorseThief wrote:Section Size
...
5. Duke 58


This isn't correct. Duke has 6 sections. Out of a class of 208, that would allocate an average of ~35 students per section.


Idk, this is what was listed as their "Typical First-Year Section Size" on their 509. Can anyone from Duke chime in?

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:51 pm
by Robb
HorseThief wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
HorseThief wrote:Section Size
...
5. Duke 58


This isn't correct. Duke has 6 sections. Out of a class of 208, that would allocate an average of ~35 students per section.


Idk, this is what was listed as their "Typical First-Year Section Size" on their 509. Can anyone from Duke chime in?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=225131

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:22 am
by sipy26
UVA section size is more like 30-35 rather than in the 50's.

"Virginia Law splits its students into small sections of about 30 students each. The larger lectures range from 60 to 120 students. Total class size usually ends up at around 370."

http://www.top-law-schools.com/virginia-law-school.html

You probably got your # of 58 from here: https://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2013aba.pdf

If you read the word "section" in context, you can see it refers to the typical class size for 1Ls. (Unless thats exactly what you meant by "section," in which case disregard this post)

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:54 am
by HorseThief
sipy26 wrote:UVA section size is more like 30-35 rather than in the 50's.

"Virginia Law splits its students into small sections of about 30 students each. The larger lectures range from 60 to 120 students. Total class size usually ends up at around 370."

http://www.top-law-schools.com/virginia-law-school.html

You probably got your # of 58 from here: https://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2013aba.pdf

If you read the word "section" in context, you can see it refers to the typical class size for 1Ls. (Unless thats exactly what you meant by "section," in which case disregard this post)


Updated. I'll do some more research on each school so that our definition of 'section size' is consistent.

In related news, if I ever make a ranking for 'Students who care most about their school,' UVA is definitely #1 :D

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:59 am
by sipy26
HorseThief wrote:
sipy26 wrote:UVA section size is more like 30-35 rather than in the 50's.

"Virginia Law splits its students into small sections of about 30 students each. The larger lectures range from 60 to 120 students. Total class size usually ends up at around 370."

http://www.top-law-schools.com/virginia-law-school.html

You probably got your # of 58 from here: https://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2013aba.pdf

If you read the word "section" in context, you can see it refers to the typical class size for 1Ls. (Unless thats exactly what you meant by "section," in which case disregard this post)


Updated. I'll do some more research on each school so that our definition of 'section size' is consistent.

In related news, if I ever make a ranking for 'Students who care most about their school,' UVA is definitely #1 :D


8)

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:53 am
by Robb
HorseThief wrote:
sipy26 wrote:UVA section size is more like 30-35 rather than in the 50's.

"Virginia Law splits its students into small sections of about 30 students each. The larger lectures range from 60 to 120 students. Total class size usually ends up at around 370."

http://www.top-law-schools.com/virginia-law-school.html

You probably got your # of 58 from here: https://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2013aba.pdf

If you read the word "section" in context, you can see it refers to the typical class size for 1Ls. (Unless thats exactly what you meant by "section," in which case disregard this post)


Updated. I'll do some more research on each school so that our definition of 'section size' is consistent.

In related news, if I ever make a ranking for 'Students who care most about their school,' UVA is definitely #1 :D

I think the only way to do it consistently is going to be using average class size, because the way schools use sections is going to be too variable to have any meaning. But, if this is the meaning you're gonna go with for section size, Chicago should be 32.

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospectives/bigelow

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:33 pm
by Yukos
A Yalie should confirm but I'm pretty sure that each section is assigned a first-semester doctrinal for which they write LRW stuff (e.g. a section might get Con Law and write a Con Law memo, another section might get Contracts and write a Contracts memo). All Yale first-semester courses are P/F.

For the graded/ungraded debate, Stanford doesn't have GPAs so obviously LRW doesn't factor into that but since it's graded on the same scale as all other classes I think it's fair to call it graded (I'm sure employers just treat it as another class). It's yearlong and the last two quarters are graded together (but show up as two separate grades on the transcript, it's weird).

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:58 am
by iskim88
Tag! Thx for this

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:24 am
by pedestrian
Yukos wrote:A Yalie should confirm but I'm pretty sure that each section is assigned a first-semester doctrinal for which they write LRW stuff (e.g. a section might get Con Law and write a Con Law memo, another section might get Contracts and write a Contracts memo). All Yale first-semester courses are P/F.


That's right. We all take the same four black letter classes, but one includes a writing component (usually a memo and a brief, but depends on the prof.) That class is limited to one section and we combine with a few other sections for the other classes. Our sections are ~18. I'm not sure where the 58 comes from - possibly the average size of the large classes? All of the classes are P/F, including the one with the writing component.

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:16 am
by HorseThief
Updated. However, the more I think about it, the section/class size ranking is fairly meaningless. It'd be helpful to know the exact sizes of sections, but there isn't clear data about that. And class size is useless. Most schools are going to have lecture size classes and seminars, so averaging those two numbers isn't helpful at all. Also, there isn't clear data about the class size either.

For the sake of integrity, I've removed that ranking from the first post, but I'll leave it here just in case we can get better data for this later.

Average Class Size (Reported Section Size from 509 in Parenthesis)
  1. Yale 18 (38)
  2. Stanford (30)
  3. UVA 31 (58)
  4. Chicago 32 (93)
  5. Cornell (34)
  6. Duke 35 (58)
  7. Columbia (36)
  8. Northwestern 61
  9. Berkeley 64
  10. Harvard 80
  11. Penn 83
  12. Michigan 86
  13. NYU 90
  14. Georgetown 105

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:39 am
by pilchc
Robb wrote:
HorseThief wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
HorseThief wrote:Section Size
...
5. Duke 58


This isn't correct. Duke has 6 sections. Out of a class of 208, that would allocate an average of ~35 students per section.


Idk, this is what was listed as their "Typical First-Year Section Size" on their 509. Can anyone from Duke chime in?

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 5&t=225131


3L at Duke. We have six sections, so our average section size is ~ 35 students. However, except for LARW (Legal Writing) and one doctrinal class, all our other 1L classes are taught to two sections at a time. So most 1L classes are made up of two random sections. So perhaps 58 is the average 1L class size?

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:57 am
by abl
The journal participation %ages are way off.

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:09 pm
by oxie
abl wrote:The journal participation %ages are way off.

Went back and checked my work and turns out I'd been using total student body numbers from the current academic year whereas the journal and clinic position numbers were from the prior academic year. Updated those in my post to make it consistently based on prior academic year numbers. For most schools it was a slight change, with the exception of Stanford, which I think had a typo in my original. Thanks for catching it!

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:24 pm
by Tiago Splitter
oxie wrote:
abl wrote:The journal participation %ages are way off.

Went back and checked my work and turns out I'd been using total student body numbers from the current academic year whereas the journal and clinic position numbers were from the prior academic year. Updated those in my post to make it consistently based on prior academic year numbers. For most schools it was a slight change, with the exception of Stanford, which I think had a typo in my original. Thanks for catching it!

Most 1Ls won't be on journals, so using the entire student body in the denominator throws things off.

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:52 pm
by nothingtosee
This thread is underappreciated. (is that not a word?)

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:54 pm
by North
nothingtosee wrote:This thread is underappreciated. (is that not a word?)

It's stickied

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:59 pm
by nothingtosee
North wrote:
nothingtosee wrote:This thread is underappreciated. (is that not a word?)

It's stickied


But only 3141 views doe

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:14 pm
by t-14orbust
So who is the badass that transferred(dropped?) out of YLS?

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:42 am
by HorseThief
Updated.

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:39 pm
by coffeeandtoast
cotiger wrote:Percentage of students with half-tuition scholarship or greater (half to full tuition/full tuition and up):

1) Stanford 24.4% (22.3/2.1)
2) Yale 23.7% (23.7/0.2)
3) UVA 17.8% (11.9/5.9)
4) Harvard 16.0% (13.8/2.2)
5) Chicago 13.6% (7.2/6.4)
6) Northwestern 12.8% (12/0.8 )
7) Berkeley 12.0% (10.7/1.3)
8 )GULC 11.5% (11.5/0)
9) NYU 10.2% (3.3/6.9)
10) Penn 9.7% (5.8/3.9)
11) Columbia 9.2% (8/1.2)
12) Duke 9.0% (6.7/2.3)
13) Michigan 6.9% (2.8/4.1)
14) Cornell 6.7% (6.7/0)


Very interesting, thanks for the post.

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:41 pm
by coffeeandtoast
sipy26 wrote:UVA section size is more like 30-35 rather than in the 50's.

"Virginia Law splits its students into small sections of about 30 students each. The larger lectures range from 60 to 120 students. Total class size usually ends up at around 370."

http://www.top-law-schools.com/virginia-law-school.html

You probably got your # of 58 from here: https://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/aba/2013aba.pdf

If you read the word "section" in context, you can see it refers to the typical class size for 1Ls. (Unless thats exactly what you meant by "section," in which case disregard this post)


They seem to very less conservative at virginia, I think I'll apply for above reasons, thanks for the post.

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:05 pm
by toothless_canadian
any chance OP has data for international student numbers on the T14?

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:07 pm
by HorseThief
toothless_canadian wrote:any chance OP has data for international student numbers on the T14?


Nope, sorry. I pulled all of the data from the ABA 509 reports, and international students aren't on there.

Re: Updated T-14 Rankings (LRW, COA, etc.) 2013

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:19 pm
by JustHawkin
Thanks for this! any update on LRW and COA?