University of Colorado or University of Denver?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
cron1834
Posts: 1921
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:36 am

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby cron1834 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:40 am

Zuck's point about how one wants to spend years of life is an important one, and I wrestle with that as a 0L. On one hand, spending time in a high quality-of-life location like Boulder or Denver is a real draw. On the other hand, considering how many waking hours you actually have left in life, do you really want to invest your entire professional future in a place that gives you a 50/50 shot of attaining your goals? How will you feel and what will you do if you flip tails instead of heads?

mb387
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:13 am

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby mb387 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:42 am

If I am in the bottom of my class, then I will definitely get the hint that it is not for me. Those odds are not very favorable, but I am planning on being in the top of my class. I am not planning on being an average student. I have read and know all the sad statistics dealing with law school employment. I am prepared for that and am planning on being very proactive about receiving the right internships and meeting the right people so I can secure myself a job in the legal market. I do have a reasonably good job in sales right now, but I know it is not something I want to pursue for my future. I would look at other schools outside of Colorado but I just dont have that option right now. I think I can have a bright future with either school if I put in the hard work and remain competitive on getting a job.

User avatar
LET'S GET IT
Posts: 1307
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:19 pm

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby LET'S GET IT » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:58 am

cron1834 wrote:Zuck's point about how one wants to spend years of life is an important one, and I wrestle with that as a 0L. On one hand, spending time in a high quality-of-life location like Boulder or Denver is a real draw. On the other hand, considering how many waking hours you actually have left in life, do you really want to invest your entire professional future in a place that gives you a 50/50 shot of attaining your goals? How will you feel and what will you do if you flip tails instead of heads?


I get it but if this guy is like me (by this I mean has a good job but one that he knows there is no way he wants to do for the next 40 years) what is he supposed to do? Stay in a job he hates for decades because it's safer? Sometimes you have to bet on yourself and take a chance.

I know I'm going to get killed for this, but when we give advice on TLS, we take all the emotion out of it because OP's don't and they need to hear thruths, but we tend to not think about things like this.

Go ahead and kill me Zuck. Lol

Edit: I'm not saying anyone should EVER take on six figures of debt at his/her local staTTTe school, but this situation isn't all that horrible.
Last edited by LET'S GET IT on Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby Nova » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:03 am

mb387 wrote:If I am in the bottom of my class, then I will definitely get the hint that it is not for me.

below median grades will make it very difficult to get employed, but it DOES NOT mean that being an attorney is not for you. Law school is just a stupid game. It has very little to do with practicing law.

I am planning on being in the top of my class. I am not planning on being an average student.

you and everyone else

User avatar
cron1834
Posts: 1921
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:36 am

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby cron1834 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:26 am

LET'S GET IT wrote:
cron1834 wrote:Zuck's point about how one wants to spend years of life is an important one, and I wrestle with that as a 0L. On one hand, spending time in a high quality-of-life location like Boulder or Denver is a real draw. On the other hand, considering how many waking hours you actually have left in life, do you really want to invest your entire professional future in a place that gives you a 50/50 shot of attaining your goals? How will you feel and what will you do if you flip tails instead of heads?


I get it but if this guy is like me (by this I mean has a good job but one that he knows there is no way he wants to do for the next 40 years) what is he supposed to do? Stay in a job he hates for decades because it's safer? Sometimes you have to bet on yourself and take a chance.

I know I'm going to get killed for this, but when we give advice on TLS, we take all the emotion out of it because OP's don't and they need to hear thruths, but we tend to not think about things like this.

Go ahead and kill me Zuck. Lol

Edit: I'm not saying anyone should EVER take on six figures of debt at his/her local staTTTe school, but this situation isn't all that horrible.


Agree. And my situation isn't entirely different from OP's, though with different schools and geography on the radar. My point is that if you're going to bet on yourself, why not make it an 85% bet instead of a 50% bet? As Nova suggests, everyone and their mothers assumes they're going to be head of the class. In reality, OP has median applicant stats and should not count on being top 10%. There's a 90% chance this won't be true, in which case you're in a real dogfight for employment.

User avatar
LET'S GET IT
Posts: 1307
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:19 pm

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby LET'S GET IT » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:09 am

cron1834 wrote:
LET'S GET IT wrote:
cron1834 wrote:Zuck's point about how one wants to spend years of life is an important one, and I wrestle with that as a 0L. On one hand, spending time in a high quality-of-life location like Boulder or Denver is a real draw. On the other hand, considering how many waking hours you actually have left in life, do you really want to invest your entire professional future in a place that gives you a 50/50 shot of attaining your goals? How will you feel and what will you do if you flip tails instead of heads?


I get it but if this guy is like me (by this I mean has a good job but one that he knows there is no way he wants to do for the next 40 years) what is he supposed to do? Stay in a job he hates for decades because it's safer? Sometimes you have to bet on yourself and take a chance.

I know I'm going to get killed for this, but when we give advice on TLS, we take all the emotion out of it because OP's don't and they need to hear thruths, but we tend to not think about things like this.

Go ahead and kill me Zuck. Lol

Edit: I'm not saying anyone should EVER take on six figures of debt at his/her local staTTTe school, but this situation isn't all that horrible.


Agree. And my situation isn't entirely different from OP's, though with different schools and geography on the radar. My point is that if you're going to bet on yourself, why not make it an 85% bet instead of a 50% bet? As Nova suggests, everyone and their mothers assumes they're going to be head of the class. In reality, OP has median applicant stats and should not count on being top 10%. There's a 90% chance this won't be true, in which case you're in a real dogfight for employment.


Very true, good point.

mb387
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:13 am

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby mb387 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:43 pm

Thanks for all that.... but I never asked should I go to law school. I asked which school. I am aware of all the numbers. Thanks.

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:06 pm

Nova wrote:below median grades will make it very difficult to get employed, but it DOES NOT mean that being an attorney is not for you.


Disagree. If you have horrible grades then yeah, your screwed, but at CU and many other non-biglaw schools the grades are mushed together for 80% of the students and people land their jobs based on fit, personality, special skills, luck, etc. You hear all that "grades the end all be all talk" on TLS because many of the posters attend T-14 and are shooting for big law, where the advice is completely true and appropriate. I know a lot of people in the bottom of the class with personalities and jobs lined up. I also know my share of aspy types at the top who have nothing lined up.

Also if you come to CU wanting big law you're dumb. Retake your LSAT. However if you want to have a legal career in Colorado then by all means go ahead.

mb387 wrote:Thank you. That really gives me a lot to think about. While visiting, DU was trying to prove how much better they are than CU while CU was not really trying to prove anything but showcase their reputation and history. I live about twenty minutes from both schools, but I know Denver will have much heavier traffic. I have also thought about the internships in Denver and I will have to travel to Denver regardless of what school I choose. My undergrad was in downtown Atlanta and I am kind of drawn to CU because of it's environment and it is so different than my undergrad. I have the open houses to go to and I am hoping that will make it a little easier to make the decision.


The above is LOL, and something you are going to have to learn to deal with if you go to DU. I am friends with several DU'ers, all cool people, but within the first 4 minutes of meeting them and everyone else from that school you have to hear the "why I chose not to go to CU even though I like umm really was admitted and stuff." It's a sad cry for help that of course comes off really defensive. Blame the DU administration for the whole thing. Common us/them marketing that leads to awkward externalities.

Not all DU people will care but many of the K-JD types have serious little brother syndrome towards CU. This is made all the more awkward because CU students don't care; I personally don't think one school is really better than the other. It's harder to get into CU but that only helps the school not you; from a practical perspective your career will be pretty similar out of both schools. DU is a fine school and looking back I probably should have gone there because I would still have my job lined up and I would have saved 40,000 dollars.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:"Experiential learning" really doesn't make a difference - it's a way for DU to distinguish itself from CU and the fact that CU is ranked higher. It's marketing (also not saying the higher ranking for CU makes much of a difference; that's marketing, too). I think the major "experiential" difference between DU and CU is that DU allows you to extern for a private firm, and CU does not (you can only get externship credit for a non-profit entity). Otherwise you can do absolutely everything at CU that you can do at DU, "experience" wise (clinics, internships, externships, practice courses) - neither will actually teach you to practice law any more or less than any other law school.

There is a certain degree of convenience to DU, in that it's in Denver where you probably want to be making connections, and so it's easy to get to internships etc.; a lot of CU students tend to stay in Boulder and not venture to Denver to make those connections, and then may struggle a little (a lot of people want to stay in Boulder but there aren't as many law jobs there as in Denver, obviously). But that's on the individual student, not on CU; CU is very supportive of people going down to Denver for work during the school year. And while DU touts its alumni network, there are plenty of CU alums in Denver, too.

DU is bigger, and DU has both a full-time and part-time program. CU is smaller, and is just full-time. Those things can affect the school culture, if that's important to you. And, of course, you'll either be in Denver or in Boulder, which are pretty different places (though you can easily live in Denver and commute to CU if you want to - lots of people do).

Historically, CU has had much stronger bar passage rates. I think DU has done a lot to address this in the last few years, and so the gap has been closing, but CU is still somewhat stronger.

Neither school places many students in biglaw, in part because there just isn't a lot of local biglaw. Lots of people end up in local mid-to-small firms, which can be a good outcome depending on what you want, but the market-paying national firm jobs will go to the very top students at both local schools, and T14 people returning home to Colorado.

CU has a higher ranking mostly because its LSAT/GPA numbers are higher than DU's, and possibly because it has a better "reputation" among whoever filled out the survey. But the USNWR rankings are dumb, and don't really measure anything that matters in attending a school. Besides, once you're in Colorado, everyone knows CU and DU; DU alums favor DU, CU alums favor CU, but they all work together anyway. Rankings don't matter. And neither degree will travel very far outside of Colorado anyway.


This is a good answer. I will say that while neither school travels well, most Americans have never heard of the University of Denver. At least when I travel to California and people ask me where I go to school I say a name they have heard of and attorneys know the school isn't TTT. Same cannot be said for DU, though I admit this is largely irrelevant because if you attended CU or DU to work in California you have much bigger problems than how people respond to you in conversation.

User avatar
Nova
Posts: 9116
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby Nova » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:22 pm

Disagree. If you have horrible grades then yeah, your screwed, but at CU and many other non-biglaw schools the grades are mushed together for 80% of the students and people land their jobs based on fit, personality, special skills, luck, etc. You hear all that "grades the end all be all talk" on TLS because many of the posters attend T-14 and are shooting for big law, where the advice is completely true and appropriate. I know a lot of people in the bottom of the class with personalities and jobs lined up. I also know my share of aspy types at the top who have nothing lined up.

Also if you come to CU wanting big law you're dumb. Retake your LSAT. However if you want to have a legal career in Colorado then by all means go ahead.

fair.

mb387
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:13 am

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby mb387 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:57 am

Thanks for the honest feedback Lord. For the record, I'm not chasing big law. Corporate law is something I find interesting, but I am going in with an open mind. I realize what CU and DU has to offer compared to the bigger schools. I'm not an idiot lol. But thanks for breaking down CU vs DU for me. Really helps. I am planning on trying to talk to as many current students I can to get some honest feedback.

User avatar
Bikeflip
Posts: 1833
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: University of Colorado or University of Denver?

Postby Bikeflip » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:05 pm

Zuck and others have covered my thoughts about CU/DU at $40K. I think both are decently good schools that have the disadvantage of feeding into a smaller legal market that people love.


mb387 wrote:Thanks for the honest feedback Lord. For the record, I'm not chasing big law. Corporate law is something I find interesting, but I am going in with an open mind. I realize what CU and DU has to offer compared to the bigger schools. I'm not an idiot lol. But thanks for breaking down CU vs DU for me. Really helps. I am planning on trying to talk to as many current students I can to get some honest feedback.



Yeah, but so many 17th St boutiques and smaller shops are going to want certain grades to do "corporate." And you're doing the ring thing in trying to get feedback. On that note, I think the Colorado Bar Association's Business Law Section is having a mixer at Chinook Tavern (25 and Arapahoe) from like 5:30 until 7:30 tonight. See what lawyers would be looking for in a potential law student.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BuyaLittleMercy and 8 guests