Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

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mach9zero
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Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby mach9zero » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:23 pm

Alright all applications are back and here we go, decision time :)

My background is in disability and education, and I'm looking to focus on health care law, but I know specialities don't mean squat in the big picture.

Am I Big Law or bust? Course not, or I'd be retaking. But I am planning on staying the Philly Market and surrounding area, no New York, no Chicago, only Philadelphia and South Jersey.

The schools you are considering
  • Rutgers University - Camden
  • Villanova
  • Drexel
  • Temple - Did not apply to yet since I can't get in-state tuition
  • Penn State University
  • Ohio State University
  • Tulane University
  • Northeastern University

Few outliers at the end there, but I did want to branch out to other options if worthwhile.

The total Cost of Attendance (COA)
I didn't factor in living costs, books, etc. since they're roughly the same
  • Rutgers University - Camden - full scholarship
  • Villanova - full scholarship
  • Drexel - full scholarship
  • Temple - Did not apply to yet since I can't get in-state tuition
  • Penn State University - full scholarship
  • Ohio State University - $17k total cost
  • Tulane University - $8k total cost
  • Northeastern University - $8k total cost

I will negotitate wherever I select.

How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
- Combination of loans and savings.

Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
From the Philadelphia area, work in Philadelphia currently in special education/residential. Only want to work within the mid-Atlantic region. I do have family/friend connections to a few medium-size disability firms in the area, as well as friends just recent in Big Law.

Your general career goals
Would love to become involved in health care law, policy, or as an advocate/representative for people with special needs or organizations. But I'm not bound to just that.

Your LSAT/GPA numbers
162/3.68

How many times you have taken the LSAT
Two, and I can't take it again. :P

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Nelson
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby Nelson » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:32 pm

I wouldn't go to any of these schools even for free. You should retake the LSAT.

Given your target market, THE Ohio State University, Northeastern, and Tulane make no sense. Penn State is a recipe for unemployment and Drexel is even worse. I would go to whichever of Nova and RU-C allows you to keep COL lowest (by living with your parents or a SO).

Also know that your chances of working in special ed law in Philadelphia are essentially nil, short of hanging a shingle for ADA/IDEA claims (not recommended).
Last edited by Nelson on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Winston1984
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby Winston1984 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:33 pm

I'd probably take Nova in this case.

rebexness
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby rebexness » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:34 pm

mach9zero wrote:
How many times you have taken the LSAT
Two, and I can't take it again. :P


Yes you can.

mach9zero
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby mach9zero » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:58 pm

Logistically, I can't sit out and do another year of nothing. That's not a possibility, nor an option. As well, even if a bump got me into Penn at sticker, I wouldn't take it as that size of debt is ludicous. Which is why I applied local, and went for scholarships. If HYS nowhere near sticker was an option, I'd take it. But that's not my goal, and a pipedream. Obviously, Nelson if I was in your shoes with HLS, I'd never go to a T2 for free. I can manage 40k in debt, I'd never fathom of putting 120k-200k on my back.

Consider it as this, flat out there's two considerations.

1. Philly-metro market employment prospects
2. All costs are equal since tuition is paid, and COL is relatively the same

I know Tulane and Northeastern are outliers, given my target market. And Penn State itself is wonderful campus with a great facility, it also gives me some traction in Pittsburgh.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:09 pm

Any stips on that Nova scholarship?

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Nelson
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby Nelson » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:32 pm

mach9zero wrote:Logistically, I can't sit out and do another year of nothing. That's not a possibility, nor an option. As well, even if a bump got me into Penn at sticker, I wouldn't take it as that size of debt is ludicous. Which is why I applied local, and went for scholarships. If HYS nowhere near sticker was an option, I'd take it. But that's not my goal, and a pipedream. Obviously, Nelson if I was in your shoes with HLS, I'd never go to a T2 for free. I can manage 40k in debt, I'd never fathom of putting 120k-200k on my back.

Consider it as this, flat out there's two considerations.

1. Philly-metro market employment prospects
2. All costs are equal since tuition is paid, and COL is relatively the same

I know Tulane and Northeastern are outliers, given my target market. And Penn State itself is wonderful campus with a great facility, it also gives me some traction in Pittsburgh.

I don't go to HLS. I took a year off to retake the LSAT. I'm taking on a ton of debt at my school.

I still wouldn't go to your options because there's a very good chance you end up not a lawyer at all.

Employment prospects from Nova and RU-C are roughly equal. Law School Transparency says Penn State is too, but that's not my anecdotal impression from the people I know who went there.

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ZGr88n
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby ZGr88n » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:36 pm

I would retake in June, what could it hurt?

mach9zero
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby mach9zero » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:03 pm

Nelson sorry about that I had just gone to your post: history to see if I could find what school you went to for a comparison. I must have misread something about Harvard. Maybe this law school thing isn't for me I should go to school for people who don't read so good.

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Otunga
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby Otunga » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:03 pm

To be clear, you are taking out living expense loans in addition to the stated amounts? So, when it says full tuition scholarship for example, should we add a certain number of loans to that equation?

For your question, I say Rutgers as long you don't strongly prefer Philly over Jersey. If you do, then go to Nova. One point in Nova's favor is it has a greater biglaw percentage, though you probably need to rank in the top 10% if you're an average joe to have a good chance at it. Your chances at biglaw at Rutgers are even worse. But as you said, you don't care about biglaw and you wouldn't be contending with much debt coming out of any of the schools here, so it wouldn't be like you'd have to get it (poor bastards who have to at Rutgers or Nova....).

I don't think a retake is the go-to answer. You don't have enough interest in biglaw or the debt to support the need for it. If you're good with doing small law in Pennsylvania or Jersey, then work your ass off and come out with not much debt to pay off.

By the way, my suggestion(s) would require you to alter your objectives in attending LS. If you only want to be an advocate for an organization, I doubt you need to go to law school.

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goldenboy514
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby goldenboy514 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:22 pm

Given that you won't retake and you want to stay in Philly, I would apply to temple and see if u can land fully scholly. Even out of state, temple has been giving full rides this year to ppl with ur numbers even oos. Other then that, I'd take rutgers or nova for whichever is closer and you could commute to.

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ronanOgara
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby ronanOgara » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:15 am

Looking like you're from Jersey, RU-C seems to be maybe the better option. If you're looking at Philly/Jersey, PSU really doesn't make much sense..it will take you out of the market you want to be in.

If you could live w/ family while you attend, RU-C could be a good deal. Not sure where specifically in Jersey you live, but TONS of kids at Drexel make the commute from Jersey every day, and I'm sure there are kids at Nova who do the same thing as well..

Also--what are the stips on your scholarships?

timbs4339
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:59 am

Can you cite three nonprofits in the metro region that do special ed law?

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JuTMSY4
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby JuTMSY4 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:33 pm

Why didn't you apply to Temple? It's the 2nd best law school in Philly...

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Danger Zone
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:38 pm

Last edited by Danger Zone on Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ronanOgara
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby ronanOgara » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:40 pm

JuTMSY4 wrote:Why didn't you apply to Temple? It's the 2nd best law school in Philly...


Only reason I can think of for him is that because it's a public school, it's hard to receive full-rides/lots of money from them. Since he's out of state, he probably would have been paying a good bit to attend (coupled with the fact that getting PA residency is almost impossible). However, I don't know why he didn't simply apply and see what happened...

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Nelson
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby Nelson » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:30 pm

JuTMSY4 wrote:Why didn't you apply to Temple? It's the 2nd best law school in Philly...

It's not really. No employer is looking at a Temple grad and favoring them over a Villanova or RU-C grad just based on what school they went to. All of the Philly TTs are the same job wise.

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OutCold
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby OutCold » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:24 pm

Nelson wrote:
JuTMSY4 wrote:Why didn't you apply to Temple? It's the 2nd best law school in Philly...

It's not really. No employer is looking at a Temple grad and favoring them over a Villanova or RU-C grad just based on what school they went to. All of the Philly TTs are the same job wise.


This is correct for FIRM jobs. It is not at all the case for local government jobs. Temple has a very firm hold on the DA's office and other government jobs in the area.

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JuTMSY4
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby JuTMSY4 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:12 pm

OutCold wrote:
Nelson wrote:
JuTMSY4 wrote:Why didn't you apply to Temple? It's the 2nd best law school in Philly...

It's not really. No employer is looking at a Temple grad and favoring them over a Villanova or RU-C grad just based on what school they went to. All of the Philly TTs are the same job wise.


This is correct for FIRM jobs. It is not at all the case for local government jobs. Temple has a very firm hold on the DA's office and other government jobs in the area.


TITCR

Same for RU-C in south jerz and Nova in the outer counties. There is just more work in Philly than outside.

Edited to Add: Penn State has no major market to attach to. I would stay away

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Nelson
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby Nelson » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:31 pm

OutCold wrote:
Nelson wrote:
JuTMSY4 wrote:Why didn't you apply to Temple? It's the 2nd best law school in Philly...

It's not really. No employer is looking at a Temple grad and favoring them over a Villanova or RU-C grad just based on what school they went to. All of the Philly TTs are the same job wise.


This is correct for FIRM jobs. It is not at all the case for local government jobs. Temple has a very firm hold on the DA's office and other government jobs in the area.

Do you have any actual evidence for this? It's TLS conventional wisdom, but is there any evidence it's anything other than self selection? Plus, given how few people Philly DA hires these days it's hardly making much of a difference. The LSN stats for these schools are practically equal. The cheapest one is the best option and, at equal cost, you should go to the one that lets you keep COL lowest.

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OutCold
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby OutCold » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:29 pm

Nelson wrote:
OutCold wrote:
Nelson wrote:
JuTMSY4 wrote:Why didn't you apply to Temple? It's the 2nd best law school in Philly...

It's not really. No employer is looking at a Temple grad and favoring them over a Villanova or RU-C grad just based on what school they went to. All of the Philly TTs are the same job wise.


This is correct for FIRM jobs. It is not at all the case for local government jobs. Temple has a very firm hold on the DA's office and other government jobs in the area.

Do you have any actual evidence for this? It's TLS conventional wisdom, but is there any evidence it's anything other than self selection? Plus, given how few people Philly DA hires these days it's hardly making much of a difference. The LSN stats for these schools are practically equal. The cheapest one is the best option and, at equal cost, you should go to the one that lets you keep COL lowest.


My anecdotal evidence is that I have worked in the Philly DA's office and know the breakdowns of how many students each school places in summer classes, clinical programs, and the incoming DA class. It is also easy to glean simply by looking at the school's that the division heads come from. My statement extends to PD's as well as other local gov positions. Part of this is the emphasis that Temple places on their trial team, which is pretty much the equivalent of law review at other schools.

But I completely agree that the cheapest option is likely the best. Nova for free vs. Temple for anything over a few k a year is going to win every time. I was just pointing out that Temple does in fact excel over the rest of those Philly schools in some areas--though those jobs are few and far between.

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phillywc
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby phillywc » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:49 am

If you live in South Jersey now, and it sounds like you do, RU-C makes a lot of sense. I'd do Nova if you live in PA. Radnor>Camden, as well.

Apply to Temple though.

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goldenboy514
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Re: Philly Market - Rutgers v Nova v Drex v OSU v. PSU v. Temple

Postby goldenboy514 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:55 pm

You'd probably get a full ride to Rutgers and Nova this year. And though Temple has been stingy in the past, they have been giving out money more so this year it seems. Def apply to Temple and way your options between those 3 schools in terms of COA and location.




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