Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

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Gryffindor
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Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby Gryffindor » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:53 pm

I am completely aware there was a similar topic started the other day on the topic, but it mainly focused on Yale v Ruby and ignored Harvard- Since I have not been so fortunate as to get into Yale- I would like to start a new topic mainly focusing on Harvard v Ruby and the advantages/disadvantages.

My goals: Im very interested in working in the government in some capacity - DOJ, FBI, CIA, or DOS- and so far from my research I have been highly disappointed in Chicago's lack of resources for that type of work. Harvard on the other hand has some fantastic clinics and externships and classes revolving around this area of law. But, of course the debt-free life of Chicago is still appealing and what is keeping it in the game... I just feel like I need confirmation that Chicago can get me the types of jobs I want in DC. and won't put me too far behind the HYS students....

riverwater
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby riverwater » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:09 pm

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Last edited by riverwater on Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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zhenders
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby zhenders » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:17 pm

Just can't imagine turning down the Ruby. I love Harvard and I love Cambridge/Boston -- Boston BigLaw is near top of my "ideal future" list -- but as far as value goes, short of Yale in specific circumstances, The Ruby is just damned near impossible to beat. Not to mention you get to put it on your resume, which combined with a decent GPA is surely equivalent or better prestige-wise compared Harvard.

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052220151
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby 052220151 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:24 pm

These threads are stupid and have been discussed ad nauseum. Use the search. One you have debt, one is free. Should I buy a Ferrari or take the free Benz? Do whatever you want dude, there is no wrong answer.

/thread
Last edited by 052220151 on Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lawschool22
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:02 pm

Gryffindor wrote:I am completely aware there was a similar topic started the other day on the topic, but it mainly focused on Yale v Ruby and ignored Harvard- Since I have not been so fortunate as to get into Yale- I would like to start a new topic mainly focusing on Harvard v Ruby and the advantages/disadvantages.

My goals: Im very interested in working in the government in some capacity - DOJ, FBI, CIA, or DOS- and so far from my research I have been highly disappointed in Chicago's lack of resources for that type of work. Harvard on the other hand has some fantastic clinics and externships and classes revolving around this area of law. But, of course the debt-free life of Chicago is still appealing and what is keeping it in the game... I just feel like I need confirmation that Chicago can get me the types of jobs I want in DC. and won't put me too far behind the HYS students....


You can get those jobs from Chicago. Most of those federal gov't jobs love clerkships, and Chicago is great at landing top clerkships. I don't think you would have problems getting those jobs from Chicago if you have the grades and the resume to prove you're committed to that type of work. There are a lot of people at HLS who want those jobs. At Chicago you'll be a big fish in a little pond, because there aren't as many people going there who want federal government. I could see you getting attention from career services for that fact alone. Not to mention when you do OCI you'll have less competition for interview slots.

You're talking about a school tied for 4th compared to a school tied for 2nd, so it's not like you're choosing between a T1 and HLS. At equal cost, HLS would be a no-brainer. But this is not equal cost. The marginal increase in your shot at a job like this from Harvard is not worth the several hundred thousand dollars you would be giving up to go there. Just my opinion.

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2014
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby 2014 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:14 pm

What's your most likely need based aid situation at H before I start shilling Chicago?

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Gryffindor
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby Gryffindor » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:19 pm

2014 wrote:What's your most likely need based aid situation at H before I start shilling Chicago?



Most likely? Very little. I'm thoroughly middle class. My parents can definitely afford to help me with living costs but not much else. I doubt I'll really get much financial aid. But here's hoping!

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Quest4Knowledge
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby Quest4Knowledge » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:21 pm

lawschool22 wrote:You're talking about a school tied for 4th compared to a school tied for 2nd, so it's not like you're choosing between a T1 and HLS. At equal cost, HLS would be a no-brainer. But this is not equal cost. The marginal increase in your shot at a job like this from Harvard is not worth the several hundred thousand dollars you would be giving up to go there. Just my opinion.


+1

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chuckbass
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby chuckbass » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:22 pm

deputydog wrote:These threads are stupid and have been discussed as nauseum. Use the search. One you have debt, one is free. Should I buy a Ferrari or take the free Benz? Do whatever you want dude, there is no wrong answer.

/thread

akg144
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby akg144 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:24 pm

scotth724 wrote:
deputydog wrote:These threads are stupid and have been discussed as nauseum. Use the search. One you have debt, one is free. Should I buy a Ferrari or take the free Benz? Do whatever you want dude, there is no wrong answer.

/thread


This there is no wrong answer your just going to discover tremendous benefits from both schools and an embarrassing wealth of resources and connections. You will not regret either decision go wherever you feel is the best fit for what your trying to accomplish and don't look back or second guess both options are phenomenal and you really literally cannot go wrong either way.

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lawschool22
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:27 pm

akg144 wrote:
scotth724 wrote:
deputydog wrote:These threads are stupid and have been discussed as nauseum. Use the search. One you have debt, one is free. Should I buy a Ferrari or take the free Benz? Do whatever you want dude, there is no wrong answer.

/thread


This there is no wrong answer your just going to discover tremendous benefits from both schools and an embarrassing wealth of resources and connections. You will not regret either decision go wherever you feel is the best fit for what your trying to accomplish and don't look back or second guess both options are phenomenal and you really literally cannot go wrong either way.


There's a difference between "you can't go wrong, you'll be great at either" (which is true) and the fact that one is still a better decision. It comes down to value (how much do you value the marginal increase that you get from HLS), but I would be shocked if most people valued that at $200k +

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:35 pm

Harvard is the wrong answer at more than 200k plus interest over Chicago.

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052220151
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby 052220151 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:35 pm

lawschool22 wrote:
akg144 wrote:
scotth724 wrote:
deputydog wrote:These threads are stupid and have been discussed as nauseum. Use the search. One you have debt, one is free. Should I buy a Ferrari or take the free Benz? Do whatever you want dude, there is no wrong answer.

/thread


This there is no wrong answer your just going to discover tremendous benefits from both schools and an embarrassing wealth of resources and connections. You will not regret either decision go wherever you feel is the best fit for what your trying to accomplish and don't look back or second guess both options are phenomenal and you really literally cannot go wrong either way.


There's a difference between "you can't go wrong, you'll be great at either" (which is true) and the fact that one is still a better decision. It comes down to value (how much do you value the marginal increase that you get from HLS), but I would be shocked if most people valued that at $200k +


I agree that the Ruby is better than H at sticker. But prestige whores are gonna prestige whore. But let's stop entertaining these striver turds by trying to explain the benefits of ruby v H (it's really just a thinly veiled attempt to get kudos from others anyway). If you're smart enough to get a Ruby, you're smart enough to use the search function or figure it out on your own. It isn't rocket science.

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SweetTort
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby SweetTort » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:37 pm

One question related to this thread, since I can't seem to find a concrete answer anywhere.

What are the stats one generally needs to get the Ruby as a non-URM, and are they planning on being discontinued?

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lawschool22
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:37 pm

deputydog wrote:I agree that the Ruby is better than H at sticker. But prestige whores are gonna prestige whore. But let's stop entertaining these striver turds by trying to explain the benefits of ruby v H (it's really just a thinly veiled attempt to get kudos from others anyway). If you're smart enough to get a Ruby, you're smart enough to use the search function or figure it out on your own. It isn't rocket science.


Agreed. I haven't been around long enough to get annoyed by this type of thread, but I can imagine once you've seen it for the 1,000th time it would get old :D.

/thread

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drawstring
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby drawstring » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:39 pm

SweetTort wrote:One question related to this thread, since I can't seem to find a concrete answer anywhere.

What are the stats one generally needs to get the Ruby as a non-URM, and are they planning on being discontinued?


http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=217227&hilit=

From this cycle I've seen non-URMS get it with 3.9/171, 4.0/172, 3.9x/174, and higher.

Also, while Harvard is probably my first choice and prestige matters a bit to me, I would take a Ruby over HLS at sticker or near sticker. That has to be the best scholly around given the 45k on top of full tuition at a top ranked school.

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SweetTort
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby SweetTort » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:58 pm

And as to the second portion of that question, are they planning on discontinuing it in future cycles? Or was that only the old "full ride" Ruby?

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lawschool22
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:09 pm

SweetTort wrote:And as to the second portion of that question, are they planning on discontinuing it in future cycles? Or was that only the old "full ride" Ruby?


Depends how much longer Mr. Ruby wants to keep donating a few million.

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Gryffindor
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby Gryffindor » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:14 pm

SweetTort wrote:And as to the second portion of that question, are they planning on discontinuing it in future cycles? Or was that only the old "full ride" Ruby?



a minute after posting my previous reply, I found this more recent article. Mr. Rubenstein gave another $10million donation for an additional 60 scholarships to be given out to the classes of 2017, 2018, 2019.

Here is that article link, plus the others
http://news.uchicago.edu/article/2013/0 ... llion-gift
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/rubensteingift090810
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/node/3762
Last edited by Gryffindor on Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lawschool22
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:14 pm

Gryffindor wrote:
SweetTort wrote:And as to the second portion of that question, are they planning on discontinuing it in future cycles? Or was that only the old "full ride" Ruby?



According to these pages, it looks like the Ruby will only be around for as long as it takes to have 60 students accept the scholarship, which they projected to take three years. However, it looks like the first class to receive it was the Class of 2014 (application year 2011). If they followed their projections, it would appear that this current class of 2017 should not have received Rubies. But, obviously some have. So, I guess it's unclear still whether they just haven't had 60 students receive/accept the scholarship or whether more alumni contributed so as to extend the duration of the scholarship.

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/rubensteingift090810
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/node/3762


Rubenstein donated more money recently to extend it.

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2014
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby 2014 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:30 pm

Gryffindor wrote:
2014 wrote:What's your most likely need based aid situation at H before I start shilling Chicago?



Most likely? Very little. I'm thoroughly middle class. My parents can definitely afford to help me with living costs but not much else. I doubt I'll really get much financial aid. But here's hoping!

Yeah this isn't close then in my opinion. If you can identify a specific position that has institutional support at H but not Chicago then that's different, but given your general desire to work somewhere in the government I feel like Chicago can get you there. Even if you do have a couple of targeted jobs, it's tough to bank on school connections paying off or even continuing to exist. For example, I could sell that you mentioned the FBI and the current director is a U Chi alum, but it's DC and god only knows if he will work there next year. While the next guy there or wherever might be marginally more likely to be an H guy (mostly given class size I suspect) it's tough to bank on both them holding/gaining the office and caring about their alma mater.

I honestly don't know how it cuts, but I imagine having less people here gunning for Big Gov positions puts you at a competitive advantage too whereas you will have more classmates competing for the same limited set of jobs at H. To the extent that employers like diversity of law schools (no one knows if they do or don't, seems reasonable that they might), this could be an advantage for Chicago. You can only take this argument so far though because obviously at a certain point the institutional support fails or the school is not good enough to compete with the throng of H students, but I firmly believe that point falls somewhere below Chicago.

Ultimately it comes down to debt. With the Ruby deal you will take out less than 30k in loans for your 3 years combined, including interest and frankly might "profit" if you do firm work your 1L, 2L or both years. I would be crazy to sit here and say that your odds of getting Big Gov are equal at Chicago compared to H, but I find it hard to believe that the odds justify 200k MORE debt.

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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby bearsfan23 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:06 pm

If you're considering Harvard over the Ruby at Chicago, you honestly have zero business even attending law school in the first place. Seriously, if your decision-making skills are that poor, its pretty impossible to help you. Plus you're probably going to be an annoying gunner, so there's that.

Let's see - go to Chicago for free + a stipend or go to a MARGINALLY better school for 250k of debt? Tough choice

The ONLY consideration should be Yale vs the Ruby at Chicago - purely b/c Yale's incredible LRAP program means debt is pretty much irrelevant.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:24 pm

bearsfan23 wrote:If you're considering Harvard over the Ruby at Chicago, you honestly have zero business even attending law school in the first place. Seriously, if your decision-making skills are that poor, its pretty impossible to help you. Plus you're probably going to be an annoying gunner, so there's that.

Let's see - go to Chicago for free + a stipend or go to a MARGINALLY better school for 250k of debt? Tough choice

The ONLY consideration should be Yale vs the Ruby at Chicago - purely b/c Yale's incredible LRAP program means debt is pretty much irrelevant.

If Yale makes sense for 250k, then so does Harvard. Harvard also has a killer plan if you go small law/PI/Gov and if you go the biglaw route from either Harvard or Yale you'll have needlessly taken on 200k+ in debt. I promise you that the guy from Yale working at S&C paying off 250k in loans doesn't think debt is irrelevant.

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lawschool22
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby lawschool22 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:28 pm

Don't forget, the best LRAP is no debt in the first place.

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star fox
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Re: Harvard v. Ruby at Chicago

Postby star fox » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:44 pm

Take the money. Turning down the chance to graduate from a top 6 school debt free seems almost greedy.




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