Michigan($$) vs. Harvard(sticker) Forum

[northwood]

this may not be to your liking, but you could always not go this cycle, reapply to every T14 ( including the NYC schools), and use any/ all scholarship options a negotiation tools and then go one cycle later.

[cotiger]

this may not be to your liking, but you could always not go this cycle, reapply to every T14 ( including the NYC schools), and use any/ all scholarship options a negotiation tools and then go one cycle later.

Good point, but no need to wait a cycle. Apply to NYU and Columbia immediately. NYU's deadline is 2/15 (Saturday), and Columbia's is 3/3.

[Tiago Splitter]

I'm not convinced. First of all, OP will continue to get scholarship offers, so this 90k from Michigan is likely not going to be final. If she has the numbers/resume to get a Harvard acceptance and a 90k first offer from Mich (I think the highest initial offers they give outside of the Darrow), then she's likely to get big-time money from Northwestern/Cornell/Duke, perhaps even UVA. With no geographical preferences, she would likely prefer one of those, or at the very least negotiate her Mich offer upwards.

Next, it seems the case for H has been increased clerkship and "prestigious" PI opportunities. Clerking is a one-year gig and a very unlikely outcome, even from Harvard, and personally I wouldn't stake a major financial decision on that. As for increased prestigious PI, OP is not going to qualify for LIPP due to her husband's income. This means that she'll have to work in biglaw first for several years to pay off her $175k in debt. She's not going to be able to take one of those fellowships, even if she could get it. And anyways, she doesn't seem to be particularly focused on anything in particular at this point in time, which makes me value the freedom from debt even more.

I'd probably go to Michigan at 90k in her particular situation (especially considering LIPP disqualification), but if that becomes NU/Cornell at 120/150k or Duke/UVA/Mich at 105k (which I think it likely will), it becomes even more of a clear choice for me.

You may be right about other options presenting themselves, and OP should be patient in making this decision. That said, I'd easily pay 90k for Harvard over Michigan even if Biglaw were the only goal.

[cotiger]

You may be right about other options presenting themselves, and OP should be patient in making this decision. That said, I'd easily pay 90k for Harvard over Michigan even if Biglaw were the only goal.

One nitpick: OP said it's a $115k difference at this point, though I don't imagine that would change your feeling.

I agree that Michigan's placement in particular is a little dicey for me. Even in the unlikely situation where all scholly offers top out at 90k, I'd pick other schools over Michigan, particularly Duke.

[Jchance]

Has anyone ask whether you can take your H acceptance and ask more money from M? I still vote H.

[CTT]

I'm at Michigan and obviously somewhat biassed by that. Once you're choosing between schools in the T14, you're really paying for a different name on your resume and a slightly differently centered network. If your goal in life is to be a congressman or a law professor, Harvard gives you a better shot. If you want to do public interest work or biglaw, you're going to have your pick of jobs coming out of either school. Sure, you've got a do a little better at Michigan to have the same options, but the market works that out for you.

[ColbyBryant]

Wow, thank you for all of your responses. This is great!

I think it's more that people come in with a set type of public interest work that they want to do and in many cases, that set type is harder to get than an average public interest job. So it's more that they want to help people in a certain way, and that way happens to be prestigious.

Jingo this is it -- If I do PI I do not need it to be prestigious, I just want to be able to attain it!! PI is tough to get. In speaking with grads who go into PI, they choose it for a VERY specific reason. The best way to get to it is via fellowship, and Harvard certainly gives an advantage.

Good point, but no need to wait a cycle. Apply to NYU and Columbia immediately. NYU's deadline is 2/15 (Saturday), and Columbia's is 3/3.

I really hesitate waiting another cycle, but please let me know if my reasons are silly. They are, 1) I am outperforming my numbers so much that a reapply scares me. Again, I am well below H's 25%ile GPA and my LSAT is nothing to write home about (less than all 75%ile in the T6). I don't want to press my luck! 2) My current job is getting restructured, uncertain future, and I am only making 26k per year without paid time off.

Sure, I could apply to the New York schools, but even if I get in, what are the chances that a small offer from a CCN would change Michigan's offer? They didn't care about my acceptance from H. I would choose Michigan with 90k OR Harvard sticker over any New York school. However, it is generally pretty darn good advice, and not something I would have thought about, so thank you to both who recommended this.

are there any other schools that you have not heard back from/ scholarships that you are awaiting a response to?

If you can get into H, and a scholarship to M, there should be other options available to you.

So I have acceptances from Duke, and Northwestern. Not looking good anywhere else (Penn waitlist, UVA/Chicago/Berkeley Rejections). I have relatively weak numbers but powerful softs. My cycle has been surprising. I would choose Michigan over Duke or Northwestern unless D or N upped it to 150k. Given my numbers, it is relatively unlikely, but of course something that I will consider. I am a low GPA non-URM.

I absolutely will be patient with my decision. I think that I am being realistic that my choice will be 90k to Michigan vs. Harvard. And I am darn lucky to have such a great decision to make

[ColbyBryant]

Has anyone ask whether you can take your H acceptance and ask more money from M? I still vote H.

I did try this, before posting this question. Considering my numbers I felt pretty bad asking for more money out of M. Unsurprisingly, they said no.

I'm at Michigan and obviously somewhat biassed by that. Once you're choosing between schools in the T14, you're really paying for a different name on your resume and a slightly differently centered network. If your goal in life is to be a congressman or a law professor, Harvard gives you a better shot. If you want to do public interest work or biglaw, you're going to have your pick of jobs coming out of either school. Sure, you've got a do a little better at Michigan to have the same options, but the market works that out for you.

Thanks for your input. I think of choosing Harvard as buying insurance. IF my interests shift to something harder to attain, if I am one of those people who (hard as I try) just can't be in the top half of my class, etc...I have the H insurance. It is incredibly difficult to be realistic about my prospects or goals as a 0L. I have had enough friends go through law school / med school / graduate schools, and interests change drastically between orientation and graduation.

Also CTT... Would you choose michigan in my situation?

Decisions decisions decisions.... You all are correct though, I do have some time! Not as much as others, because we plan to move to our new place of residence in early June!

[worldtraveler]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

I think it's more that people come in with a set type of public interest work that they want to do and in many cases, that set type is harder to get than an average public interest job. So it's more that they want to help people in a certain way, and that way happens to be prestigious.

I'll project here. Can folks going to H reasonably expect to be a part of a prestigious and impactful effort to reform criminal drug laws, whereas someone from M cannot? Is a criminal defense attorney from Southwestern (a school in L.A.) who represents 20 year olds facing 11 year sentences for trafficking not a significant part of that effort?

What's dumb about this entire debate is any PI lawyer is going to start out doing roughly the same things. Either you are doing direct representation, or you are working on big cases but in a very small capacity. Maybe it's a huge case but you just write some memos and do some background research. If you are good at your job then you can move up to have more responsibility and more impact. If it matters to you that you do grunt work at a big name place or a small place, then you have a major ego problem. You don't do big stuff until later in your career.

[cotiger]

I dunno about the idea of Harvard as insurance in this case. If you strike out at biglaw at Harvard (absolutely possible), you're in a shitty situation with 175k in loans with no LIPP. At Michigan (or wherever), you can aim for either biglaw or PI, and even if the worst happens and you end up unemployed or w/ a ST or PT job (around 10%), you're only in 60k debt (hopefully lower). The downside risk is greater at Harvard IMO.

And honestly I don't think the upside is that much greater at Harvard. Its big advantage is prestigious PI, but a) you're not really focusing on prestigious PI (or are necessarily deadset on PI at all), and b) you wouldn't be able to realistically go into PI right away from Harvard anyway because of the debt. The only time where I see you having a better outcome at Harvard right now is if you decide you want really want biglaw after all and fall in the 25th-50th percentile range in your class--super dicey at Michigan, still pretty safe at Harvard.

As for potential other scholarships, don't despair! First, Michigan is not going to negotiate with you yet. So be patient and try again later (even if H is your only thing to negotiate with). Also, you still have a chance at big scholarships. You said you were a 3.7 with under 75th LSAT of T6? Looking at last year's 3.7X/170-171s, Cornell gave out 150/120/120/105/105, and Northwestern gave out 150/120/90 -- all at or above your current offer.

[Big Dog]

As for potential other scholarships, don't despair! First, Michigan is not going to negotiate with you yet.

Exactly. You need other $$ offers from 'peer schools' with which to negotiate.

[whereskyle]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

Yeah, worldtraveler, I think it has to do with people feeling that they want to be part of "big", "real" change (I.e., massive political overhaul). Learning about the way law evolves over time, tho, and the changes that "small lawyers" can help to bring about may help people see that there are fruits to the labor of unprestigious PI. Of course, it becomes sort of "prestigious" when NPR picks up the story of your little known community law clinic.

Lol. Yes, go to Harvard because that is the only way to help save the world through big, real change.

I recommended Harvard because Michigan is vastly over rated and she isn't getting enough money. Not because Harvard is the only way to solve world problems.

I mean, can you even hear yourself?? I know TLS has its share of prestige-whores but this takes it to a level I don't recall ever seeing here before. I mean we all know the world is run by Harvard grads so you have to be one to make a big, real difference in the world.

Sorry, I can't stop laughing here.

Really appreciate the mockery. The point of the post was to put "real", "big" change into context. It sure isn't happening via legislation. It's happening, if at all, in the courts.

[CTT]

Has anyone ask whether you can take your H acceptance and ask more money from M? I still vote H.

I did try this, before posting this question. Considering my numbers I felt pretty bad asking for more money out of M. Unsurprisingly, they said no.

I'm at Michigan and obviously somewhat biassed by that. Once you're choosing between schools in the T14, you're really paying for a different name on your resume and a slightly differently centered network. If your goal in life is to be a congressman or a law professor, Harvard gives you a better shot. If you want to do public interest work or biglaw, you're going to have your pick of jobs coming out of either school. Sure, you've got a do a little better at Michigan to have the same options, but the market works that out for you.

Thanks for your input. I think of choosing Harvard as buying insurance. IF my interests shift to something harder to attain, if I am one of those people who (hard as I try) just can't be in the top half of my class, etc...I have the H insurance. It is incredibly difficult to be realistic about my prospects or goals as a 0L. I have had enough friends go through law school / med school / graduate schools, and interests change drastically between orientation and graduation.

Also CTT... Would you choose michigan in my situation?

Decisions decisions decisions.... You all are correct though, I do have some time! Not as much as others, because we plan to move to our new place of residence in early June!

If I had faced your choice when I was deciding, would I have picked Michigan? Probably not. Do I think if I had gone to Harvard, I would be a happier person? Not a chance. I love it here. Students generally love it here. The faculty loves it here. Do I sound like a member of a cult? We have a chill class. We go out together; we go to sports games together; most of us live together. Plus, Ann Arbor is livable in a way that Boston, excuse me, Cambridge, isn't.

I do hear what you're saying about the insurance policy. You can do relatively poorly at Harvard and still land yourself in a "good" biglaw job, clerkship, or federal government position. At Michigan, you really want to stay out of the bottom quarter of the class. Not that Michigan students who get sub-par grades starve, but you're correct that the market for Michigan grads is GPA dependent in a way that it isn't as much for HYS students.

Anyway, here's how I see your choice. If you come to Michigan, odds are that as someone who had the Harvard option, you'll do just fine. Students who made that choice, to the extent that I have a read on it, seem to have done well. No person can guarantee that you'll be in the top 10 percent or whatever, but don't fool yourself into thinking that your work experience, GPA, and LSAT count for nothing (I only mean to imply that there are correlative inferences that are appropriate). You will graduate in effectively the same position you would have been graduating from Harvard, except your transcript will say Michigan instead of Harvard, and you'll be $90,000 better off. So, do you want to pay $90,000 to say you went to Harvard (rather than "I turned down Harvard Law, because I knew we would be happier, wealthier, and less stressed at Michigan") and to preserve the BigLaw option if you're in the bottom part of the class?

That's the game. You'll do fine either way. I think you will be happier here, but that's simply because I like it here so much.

[Optimist Prime]

-

[NYstate]

I'm kind of baffled by people who only want "prestigious" PI, and nothing else. You want to help people but only if you get prestige for it?

Yeah, worldtraveler, I think it has to do with people feeling that they want to be part of "big", "real" change (I.e., massive political overhaul). Learning about the way law evolves over time, tho, and the changes that "small lawyers" can help to bring about may help people see that there are fruits to the labor of unprestigious PI. Of course, it becomes sort of "prestigious" when NPR picks up the story of your little known community law clinic.

Lol. Yes, go to Harvard because that is the only way to help save the world through big, real change.

I recommended Harvard because Michigan is vastly over rated and she isn't getting enough money. Not because Harvard is the only way to solve world problems.

I mean, can you even hear yourself?? I know TLS has its share of prestige-whores but this takes it to a level I don't recall ever seeing here before. I mean we all know the world is run by Harvard grads so you have to be one to make a big, real difference in the world.

Sorry, I can't stop laughing here.

Really appreciate the mockery. The point of the post was to put "real", "big" change into context. It sure isn't happening via legislation. It's happening, if at all, in the courts.

I am mocking you because you seem to think that Harvard is the only way forward. Also. I think you sounded like a pretentious idiot.

[cotiger]

Just realized that OP didn't include interest or tuition increases in her COA calculations. Harvard tuition and fees is about $58k + $5k for additional COL results in $190k in loans without interest. Plugging into the Georgetown calculator results in total indebtedness at repayment of $233k. That's $33,000/year for 10 years.

Michigan results in total indebtedness at repayment of $90k (and hopefully it will be even less). That's $12,000/year.

OP wants to do PI. She will not be able to pursue that if she goes to Harvard. She will be able to pursue that, however, if she goes to Michigan (or wherever). If she goes to Harvard, she has to get biglaw. If she strikes out (which absolutely happens), she is $233k in debt with no easy way to get out of it. Even if she gets it, she gets the fun time of working in biglaw for four years just to get back to zero. At Michigan, she has to not be able to find any job to be in a bad situation, and the bad situation is 90k (or lower!) in debt. Crappy, for sure, but not financially ruinous to the extent that $233k is. Additionally, if she decides (not forced like at Harvard) to try for biglaw at Mich and gets it, she can make some good money pretty quickly.

The more I'm looking at this, the less Harvard makes sense to me here.

ETA: I guess with her husband doing okay with his business, $233k in the hole isn't quite as bad as it would be for someone single. Still, I doubt she would be in a position to take that PI job. Making $40k in order to send $33k of that back in debt payments? Nope. The total difference between H and M over 10 years is $210,000. That's a house in many parts of the country.

[sasquatchsam]

I just want to point out that OP is going to have a significant amount of income coming from their spouse (70k/year at this point).

There is no reason OP should be taking out large loans. I agree that if the difference is $65k in debt versus $200k in debt I would take Michigan. However, it is more like being $50k in debt at H or having $60k in the bank and going to Michigan. Having a spouse who can help cover COL and tuition is a big help and changes the normal equation.

Also, I don't really understand why OP is concerned about loans not being LIPP eligible. It sounds like OP is worried that their spouse will make too much money...is this really a problem? If your spouse makes a bunch of money you can pay off your loans and if they don't make much money LIPP will help pay off your loans. Either way you can pay off your loans and don't have to fret about your debt

[Tiago Splitter]

OP wants to do PI. She will not be able to pursue that if she goes to Harvard. She will be able to pursue that, however, if she goes to Michigan (or wherever). If she goes to Harvard, she has to get biglaw.

I know almost nothing about PI, LIPP, etc., but I'm pretty sure this is not correct. Filing separately may be a way to shield her husband's income, and if she does PI whatever is left over at the end of ten years is forgiven tax-free.

[jbagelboy]

I would take the Darrow over Harvard sticker. Shy of that, barring extenuating family circumstances, I'd probably head to cambridge.

[cotiger]

I know almost nothing about PI, LIPP, etc., but I'm pretty sure this is not correct. Filing separately may be a way to shield her husband's income, and if she does PI whatever is left over at the end of ten years is forgiven tax-free.

LIPP is joint income divided by two. No ability to shield SO income.

There is no reason OP should be taking out large loans. I agree that if the difference is $65k in debt versus $200k in debt I would take Michigan. However, it is more like being $50k in debt at H or having $60k in the bank and going to Michigan. Having a spouse who can help cover COL and tuition is a big help and changes the normal equation.

Also, I don't really understand why OP is concerned about loans not being LIPP eligible. It sounds like OP is worried that their spouse will make too much money...is this really a problem? If your spouse makes a bunch of money you can pay off your loans and if they don't make much money LIPP will help pay off your loans. Either way you can pay off your loans and don't have to fret about your debt

You make a good point that if SO continues to do well, the COA difference wouldn't be completely debt-financed. However, even if tuition was all paid in cash, it's still a minimum difference of $120k. More likely SO has ~25k/yr to contribute to tuition on top of COL, which means debt-free Michigan and 140k in debt at Harvard. On a 10-year repayment schedule, that's still 200k vs 0k.

I see going to Harvard as clearly ending up being the better decision only if both a) OP decides that she wants to do biglaw, and b) she finishes in the 25th-50th percentile of her class. I'm not so sure that protecting for that particular situation is worth 200k, especially since she doesn't seem particularly interested in biglaw.

[TigerDude]

OP wants to do PI. She will not be able to pursue that if she goes to Harvard. She will be able to pursue that, however, if she goes to Michigan (or wherever). If she goes to Harvard, she has to get biglaw.

I know almost nothing about PI, LIPP, etc., but I'm pretty sure this is not correct. Filing separately may be a way to shield her husband's income, and if she does PI whatever is left over at the end of ten years is forgiven tax-free.

Harvard's LIPP averages the two spouses' incomes.

[Tiago Splitter]

I know almost nothing about PI, LIPP, etc., but I'm pretty sure this is not correct. Filing separately may be a way to shield her husband's income, and if she does PI whatever is left over at the end of ten years is forgiven tax-free.

LIPP is joint income divided by two. No ability to shield SO income.

How about PAYE?

OP wants to do PI. She will not be able to pursue that if she goes to Harvard. She will be able to pursue that, however, if she goes to Michigan (or wherever). If she goes to Harvard, she has to get biglaw.

I know almost nothing about PI, LIPP, etc., but I'm pretty sure this is not correct. Filing separately may be a way to shield her husband's income, and if she does PI whatever is left over at the end of ten years is forgiven tax-free.

Harvard's LIPP averages the two spouses' incomes.

Ok. So if OP doesn't make much, file taxes separately, pay very little toward loans using PAYE for ten years and then have the balance forgiven. LIPP doesn't change that.

[sasquatchsam]

I know almost nothing about PI, LIPP, etc., but I'm pretty sure this is not correct. Filing separately may be a way to shield her husband's income, and if she does PI whatever is left over at the end of ten years is forgiven tax-free.

LIPP is joint income divided by two. No ability to shield SO income.

There is no reason OP should be taking out large loans. I agree that if the difference is $65k in debt versus $200k in debt I would take Michigan. However, it is more like being $50k in debt at H or having $60k in the bank and going to Michigan. Having a spouse who can help cover COL and tuition is a big help and changes the normal equation.

Also, I don't really understand why OP is concerned about loans not being LIPP eligible. It sounds like OP is worried that their spouse will make too much money...is this really a problem? If your spouse makes a bunch of money you can pay off your loans and if they don't make much money LIPP will help pay off your loans. Either way you can pay off your loans and don't have to fret about your debt

You make a good point that if SO continues to do well, the COA difference wouldn't be completely debt-financed. However, even if tuition was all paid in cash, it's still a minimum difference of $120k. More likely SO has ~25k/yr to contribute to tuition on top of COL, which means debt-free Michigan and 140k in debt at Harvard. On a 10-year repayment schedule, that's still 200k vs 0k.

I see going to Harvard as clearly ending up being the better decision only if both a) OP decides that she wants to do biglaw, and b) she finishes in the 25th-50th percentile of her class. I'm not so sure that protecting for that particular situation is worth 200k, especially since she doesn't seem particularly interested in biglaw.

I think the $140k number is a little high. If you say tuition increases around $3,000 a year you get a total of $172,050. Subtracting $25,000 a year from spousal income leaves $97,050. Also, this ignores summer income from the student which should be somewhere between $10,000 and $30,000 for the two summers combined. In addition, this does not take into account any assets the OP may have (which is likely considering their spouse's income from last year).

In summation, I would wager that OP would have less than $100k in debt from going to Harvard and it is likely that it would be less than $75k.

[cotiger]

Ok. So if OP doesn't make much, file taxes separately, pay very little toward loans using PAYE for ten years and then have the balance forgiven. LIPP doesn't change that.

Not really sure. I think the issue is that you have to have continuous employment in PI for ten years for IBR to work (apparently difficult to pull off), which is why the PI people generally say go to somewhere for cheap rather than highly ranked with debt if you're shooting for PI. But I'm sure worldtraveler et al have more insight.

[worldtraveler]

Filing taxes separately doesn't work for everyone. It's complicated, but some people can't really do it, or you would miss marriage tax credits that way and pay a higher tax rate.

Even with IBR/PSLF, you can still be paying a substantial amount of your paycheck toward loans. You combine that with losing the tax credits and that's a lot of money.