Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

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Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Michigan
13
19%
Berkeley
32
46%
Duke
24
35%
 
Total votes: 69

Duck33
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Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby Duck33 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:31 am

Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = Tuition, Fees, and Books will be covered 100% at each school from the GI Bill.
Yearly housing stipend for each school:
Michigan - $12,624
Berkeley - $22,152
Duke - $10,560

Additionally, my wife is a nurse and will be supporting us during school.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)

I have ties to a Midwest city (not Chicago) and east Texas. Places I would like to work are Dallas > West Coast > East Coast > NYC

-Your general career goals

Goals are big law anywhere except NYC, but willing to go to NYC if it is the only option.

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cotiger
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby cotiger » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:40 am

I vote Berkeley. It gives you the best chance at non-NYC biglaw, especially since west coast is preferred over east coast.

eastcoast_iub
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby eastcoast_iub » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:23 pm

A fair amount of TX firms come here, I don't know specifically about Dallas although I do know several people who went to Houston. Michigan probably has the most diverse geographical placement out of the schools listed since it doesn't have a home market.

That said, Dallas and West Coast are both relatively small markets that are tougher to crack, so you can't necessarily bank on those markets, especially the West Coast since you don't have ties. Although I do think being military is going to give you a major leg up in interviews b/c you will stand out. It is relatively rare to see ex-military in law school.

I wouldn't decide based on COA - the difference is negligible in the scheme of things. Make sure you can deal with the weather here though - it's been brutal this winter.
Last edited by eastcoast_iub on Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:32 pm

Dallas is number 1?

Do Duke bro.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby worldtraveler » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:36 pm

I think Berkeley since you want the West Coast.

BigZuck
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:42 pm

I don't get all the Berkeley love. Berkeley is one of the last T14s I would choose if I wanted TX big law, if only because of the number of Dallas firms going to OCI. I'm sure it's possible out of Berkeley, but I would prefer going go the school where it is easiest. I guess people are thinking that because west coast is second, that shoots Berkeley to the top? That makes some sense.

I would also say that if the wife's job is a factor here (which it seems to be) then it might have to be Berkeley all the way.

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cotiger
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby cotiger » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:50 pm

BigZuck wrote:I don't get all the Berkeley love. Berkeley is one of the last T14s I would choose if I wanted TX big law, if only because of the number of Dallas firms going to OCI. I'm sure it's possible out of Berkeley, but I would prefer going go the school where it is easiest. I guess people are thinking that because west coast is second, that shoots Berkeley to the top? That makes some sense.

I would also say that if the wife's job is a factor here (which it seems to be) then it might have to be Berkeley all the way.


I'm seeing "non-NYC" as the larger desire for OP. And then of that, Dallas is preferred. With Duke, you're most likely not going to get Dallas (especially with lack of ties), and will most likely be going to NYC. With Berkeley, you're most likely going to end up in California, which OP's second preference behind Dallas and seems to be much preferred over NYC.

BigZuck
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:55 pm

cotiger wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I don't get all the Berkeley love. Berkeley is one of the last T14s I would choose if I wanted TX big law, if only because of the number of Dallas firms going to OCI. I'm sure it's possible out of Berkeley, but I would prefer going go the school where it is easiest. I guess people are thinking that because west coast is second, that shoots Berkeley to the top? That makes some sense.

I would also say that if the wife's job is a factor here (which it seems to be) then it might have to be Berkeley all the way.


I'm seeing "non-NYC" as the larger desire for OP. And then of that, Dallas is preferred. With Duke, you're most likely not going to get Dallas (especially with lack of ties), and will most likely be going to NYC. With Berkeley, you're most likely going to end up in California, which OP's second preference behind Dallas and seems to be much preferred over NYC.


He said he has TX ties, and TX firms love nothing more than T14 bros, especially bros from southern T14s it seems.

I might have misread the strength of his TX ties however.

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cotiger
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby cotiger » Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:59 pm

BigZuck wrote:He said he has TX ties, and TX firms love nothing more than T14 bros, especially bros from southern T14s it seems.

I might have misread the strength of his TX ties however.


East Texas. Dallasites are not going to see that as being from around here. Practically Louisiana. There is the whole "Keep Dallas Pretentious" thing.

BigZuck
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby BigZuck » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:04 pm

cotiger wrote:
BigZuck wrote:He said he has TX ties, and TX firms love nothing more than T14 bros, especially bros from southern T14s it seems.

I might have misread the strength of his TX ties however.


East Texas. Dallasites are not going to see that as being from around here. Practically Louisiana.


For sure. Got the sense that that doesn't really matter though. The only time it seems to be a problem is if you're from Houston and are applying in Dallas or vice versa. Firms haven't sounded particularly suspicious of my west TX classmates. But maybe east TX is different.

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cotiger
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby cotiger » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:21 pm

BigZuck wrote:
cotiger wrote:
BigZuck wrote:He said he has TX ties, and TX firms love nothing more than T14 bros, especially bros from southern T14s it seems.

I might have misread the strength of his TX ties however.


East Texas. Dallasites are not going to see that as being from around here. Practically Louisiana.


For sure. Got the sense that that doesn't really matter though. The only time it seems to be a problem is if you're from Houston and are applying in Dallas or vice versa. Firms haven't sounded particularly suspicious of my west TX classmates. But maybe east TX is different.


100% non law school info/feelings, but FWIW I feel like west Texas absolutely would have a stronger cultural "ties" vibe. I think it has to do with a snobbery in Dallas of a perception of southern hickishness in E Texas. To be fair, I don't actually know how firms would perceive it, but I do know that my gut reaction when comparing all those Dallas private schoolers who are now going to SMU/UT law vs someone from East Texas who went to North Carolina for school (compounding not-really ties with more not-really ties) is that those SMU/UT kids are going to win out.

Regardless of the actual strength of the ties, they're certainly not strong enough to say that OP will for sure be able to get there from Duke. Whereas at Berk, it's more than possible, but actually likely, to be able to snag that non-NYC location.

ETA: The best explanation of Texas regions -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JREkqCvLzSo

Duck33
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby Duck33 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:41 pm

Thanks for the responses. The job prospects for my wife play a huge role in the decision process. I think Berkeley has the advantage with her pay, but it is hard to tell how much of a differences the COL really is at each place. I feel that the increased living stipend and the extra amount she can make in San Francisco more than covers any COL difference between cities.

I am unsure how strong my ties are to TX. I have lived and worked in a town a couple hours from Houston for the last few years and I have a uncle that lives in Dallas.

I find myself leaning towards Berkeley in order to develop some ties to the west coast. Not getting Dallas isn't really a huge deal to me. It is just if I had to pick one city that I wanted to live and work in, it would be it. The main thing I am trying to avoid is being forced to take a job in NYC.

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cotiger
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby cotiger » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:50 pm

Duck33 wrote:Not getting Dallas isn't really a huge deal to me ... The main thing I am trying to avoid is being forced to take a job in NYC.


BERK

/thread

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worldtraveler
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby worldtraveler » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:12 pm

Duck33 wrote:Thanks for the responses. The job prospects for my wife play a huge role in the decision process. I think Berkeley has the advantage with her pay, but it is hard to tell how much of a differences the COL really is at each place. I feel that the increased living stipend and the extra amount she can make in San Francisco more than covers any COL difference between cities.

I am unsure how strong my ties are to TX. I have lived and worked in a town a couple hours from Houston for the last few years and I have a uncle that lives in Dallas.

I find myself leaning towards Berkeley in order to develop some ties to the west coast. Not getting Dallas isn't really a huge deal to me. It is just if I had to pick one city that I wanted to live and work in, it would be it. The main thing I am trying to avoid is being forced to take a job in NYC.


If you pick Berkeley apply for the family student housing ASAP. As in yesterday. They have nice subsidized apartments on a direct bus route to the campus.

NYstate
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby NYstate » Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:13 pm

Duck33 wrote:Thanks for the responses. The job prospects for my wife play a huge role in the decision process. I think Berkeley has the advantage with her pay, but it is hard to tell how much of a differences the COL really is at each place. I feel that the increased living stipend and the extra amount she can make in San Francisco more than covers any COL difference between cities.

I am unsure how strong my ties are to TX. I have lived and worked in a town a couple hours from Houston for the last few years and I have a uncle that lives in Dallas.

I find myself leaning towards Berkeley in order to develop some ties to the west coast. Not getting Dallas isn't really a huge deal to me. It is just if I had to pick one city that I wanted to live and work in, it would be it. The main thing I am trying to avoid is being forced to take a job in NYC.


If you want biglaw, you have to accept that you need to bid NYC. People get jobs here because it is the biggest market. As you know, not every T14 student even gets a shot at a job in New York, so it isn't guaranteed for anyone. All these T14 schools do is give people above certain grade cutoffs (or with individual work experience) a chance at a biglaw screening interview through OCI or mass mailing. Every year people end up without competitive SAs because they ignored the NYC market. Just keep that in mind.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:36 am

Ok where did this idea come from that Berk is good for Biglaw. It's not, Berk's Biglaw placement has always been on the low end, and Duke has outperformed both Berk and Mich for the last 3 years. Plus if OP wants TX this is a complete no-brainer for Duke.

Stats for Biglaw + Fed Clerkships in the last 3 years:

2012
Duke 64%
Berk 60.5%
Mich 51.8%

2011
Duke 56%
Berk 51.3%
Mich 44.6%

2010
Add it up yourselves or take my word for it

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cotiger
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby cotiger » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:49 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:2010
Add it up yourselves or take my word for it


Lol, it's Berk 58.4>Duke 57.7>Mich 56.4

C'mon Rick, I know you're a Duke guy, but Duke and Berk are essentially the same in overall BL+FC placement (even without taking into consideration some likely self-selection from Berk). And OP's overarching desire is non-NYC, not Texas or bust. In that case, Berk is the clear winner.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:53 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:2010
Add it up yourselves or take my word for it

Ok.

Berk: 58.4%
Duke: 57.7%

Duke and Berk are also almost identical in NLJ 250 placement for 2008, with Berk having a very small advantage.

I think we can conclude two things from these numbers: 1) Michigan is way behind and 2) Duke and Berk are close enough that choosing either one is defensible.

One question I'd have about Duke: How much of its placement success is based on connections to tie-heavy Southern markets, where OP doesn't have any ties? If OP lacks ties to the South and doesn't want NYC (where 20-25% of Duke's class goes every year) then where does that leave him?

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:02 pm

cotiger wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:2010
Add it up yourselves or take my word for it


Lol, it's Berk 58.4>Duke 57.7>Mich 56.4

C'mon Rick, I know you're a Duke guy, but Duke and Berk are essentially the same in overall BL+FC placement (even without taking into consideration some likely self-selection from Berk). And OP's overarching desire is non-NYC, not Texas or bust. In that case, Berk is the clear winner.


So Duke wins 2 of 3 years and essentially ties the third

OP wants TX which Duke is undeniably better for

And you recommend Berk?

ok

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cotiger
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby cotiger » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:22 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:So Duke wins 2 of 3 years and essentially ties the third

OP wants TX which Duke is undeniably better for

And you recommend Berk?

ok


Ahem..

Goals are big law anywhere except NYC

Not getting Dallas isn't really a huge deal to me.

The main thing I am trying to avoid is being forced to take a job in NYC.


OP wants non-NYC, of which Dallas would be tops and west coast second. Really wants to avoid NYC. Duke's biggest market is NYC. Duke sends 75% of their students to the east coast vs 15% to the preferred west coast. As for Dallas being easier from Duke: quite possibly, but OP has questionable ties to Dallas, and Duke doesn't send many students to Texas (around 5% the last time we have data for it. Even if OP had strong ties to Dallas, it's most likely that OP ends up in NYC from Duke. Which is what OP is primarily trying to avoid.

At Berk, he will most likely not get to Dallas. However, he is overwhelmingly likely to get something on the west coast. Which is not NYC. (And NYC is what OP is trying to avoid, in case it was unclear.)

Duke is a great school. But it is not the best for OP.

Also,
The job prospects for my wife play a huge role in the decision process. I think Berkeley has the advantage with her pay


And you recommend Duke?

ok

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SemperLegal
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby SemperLegal » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:25 pm

Your only real choices are Duke and Berkeley, since you want West Coast and for your wife to have a good chance at getting a job.

All the major Texas firms comes to Berkeley's OCI, and plenty of our 1Ls go to TX the first summer. I am sure the same is true for Duke (and this bizarre fascination with Duke being Southern is a red herring. Texans do not consider themselves Southerners, and no one considers a Duke education symptomatic of being a Southerner anyway.)

However, Berkeley certainly is better for the West Coast and you don't have to worry about Yellow Ribbon getting cut.

Also, I know COL is higher in SF, but the BAH overcompensates because Raleigh's average income gets pulled down by areas where you wouldn't actually be able to live due to distance or saftey. I would much rather live in the Bay on $22,000 then in Raleigh on $10,000.

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MistakenGenius
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Postby MistakenGenius » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:12 pm

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BigZuck
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby BigZuck » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:13 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
Duck33 wrote:Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = Tuition, Fees, and Books will be covered 100% at each school from the GI Bill.
Yearly housing stipend for each school:
Michigan - $12,624
Berkeley - $22,152
Duke - $10,560

Additionally, my wife is a nurse and will be supporting us during school.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)

I have ties to a Midwest city (not Chicago) and east Texas. Places I would like to work are Dallas > West Coast > East Coast > NYC

-Your general career goals

Goals are big law anywhere except NYC, but willing to go to NYC if it is the only option.



These schools are almost all the same. The only real difference is where they have influence after New York. If you have ties to Texas like you said and really want to work in Dallas, then Duke is the obvious answer, and it's not even close. Michigan has 0 pull down here and Southerners (loosely using that term for Texas) generally look down on California. That said, getting Dallas biglaw will be an uphill battle depending on those ties, and Berkeley is clearly going to dominate when it comes to the West Coast. I didn't vote because I'm torn. If you had said Texas over West Coast, it's Duke by a landslide despite what those delusional West coaster's said. But for some reason you seem to be anti-Austin and Houston. Just realize that Duke will crush it across the South, but won't have much pull on the West Coast (especially since you have no ties, something no one is mentioning for some reason). Berkeley on the other hand will destroy the West Coast, but will not get you Dallas.


Austin

Lulz

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MistakenGenius
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Postby MistakenGenius » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:23 pm

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cotiger
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Re: Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

Postby cotiger » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:49 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
Duck33 wrote:Michigan vs Berkeley vs Duke

-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = Tuition, Fees, and Books will be covered 100% at each school from the GI Bill.
Yearly housing stipend for each school:
Michigan - $12,624
Berkeley - $22,152
Duke - $10,560

Additionally, my wife is a nurse and will be supporting us during school.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)

I have ties to a Midwest city (not Chicago) and east Texas. Places I would like to work are Dallas > West Coast > East Coast > NYC

-Your general career goals

Goals are big law anywhere except NYC, but willing to go to NYC if it is the only option.



These schools are almost all the same. The only real difference is where they have influence after New York. If you have ties to Texas like you said and really want to work in Dallas, then Duke is the obvious answer, and it's not even close. Michigan has 0 pull down here and Southerners (loosely using that term for Texas) generally look down on California. That said, getting Dallas biglaw will be an uphill battle depending on those ties, and Berkeley is clearly going to dominate when it comes to the West Coast. I didn't vote because I'm torn. If you had said Texas over West Coast, it's Duke by a landslide despite what those delusional West coaster's said. But for some reason you seem to be anti-Austin and Houston. Just realize that Duke will crush it across the South, but won't have much pull on the West Coast (especially since you have no ties, something no one is mentioning for some reason). Berkeley on the other hand will destroy the West Coast, but will not get you Dallas.

Also, notice my lack of mentioning Michigan. It's your worst choice of the three by far considering your career goals, and anyone who says otherwise is insane or ignorant. It might land you Chicago at a higher rate, but as others have already said, its Biglaw+clerkship ratings are worse compared to the other two. Your wife will probably make more money in California, Durham COL is way lower than California. Honestly, it's a toss up. Do you want Texas or West Coast (a stretch with 0 ties)?


Not a west coaster, btw. From Texas, and Duke is one of my top choices depending on scholly situation, so I have no bias against the school.

I think where the Duke promoters are going wrong is the assumption that OP's preference is Dallas>West Coast>East Coast>NYC, when it really seems to be Dallas>West Coast>East Coast>>>>>>>>>>>>>NYC. If it was the former, then sure, it would be a toss up with an argument to be made for slight edge to Duke because of potentially greater ease in getting Dallas. But it seems to be the latter, and Berk's much greater ability to keep him out of NYC easily wins the day. Not to mention the "soft" factors of his wife having easier/higher paying employment in the bay area and the $22k/yr he gets in Berkeley vs only $10k/yr he gets in Durham. Berkeley COL is higher than Durham, but not that much higher.

Also, his TX ties are highly dubious. He has an uncle that lives in Dallas (whoop-de-doo), and he lived in the middle of nowhere east Texas for a couple of years before going to law school out of state. That's not the kind of connection that's going to make an employer super confident that Dallas is really where he wants to be, especially not when compared to all of the people who grew up in Texas, went to UG in Texas, and then went to law school in Texas or T14.

Regardless, I'm skeptical about how much of an edge Duke has in Dallas over Berkeley for candidates with equal ties. Duke C/O 2010 had 5.6% of grads in TX/OK/AR/LA vs Berk with 1.7%. I'd bet that most of that four percentage point difference is due to more Texans going to Duke than to Berkeley rather than some underlying Duke Texas edge. The idea that Duke is part of the same region as TX is not one you will hear a Texan espousing.




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