Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

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mylifeis24
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby mylifeis24 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:35 pm

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD RETAKE! You cannot waste that 4.0 GPA. Get 170+ and you're golden. Study hard, work now, and you will get everything you want regarding jobs.

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Typhoon24
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby Typhoon24 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:39 pm

pls dont be afraid of the lsat. it could mean the difference between heaven and possible unemployment in your career.

lol and if not for you, do it for all those people busting their necks retaking the lsat who don't have your rockstar GPA.

BigZuck
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:40 pm

TwirlerGirl wrote:Okay, here is my reasoning for not re-taking. First of all, obviously I'm not lazy or I wouldn't have a 4.0. I'm good at exams, not standardized tests. Also, law school is all about being top of your class. I feel that these schools give me a chance at being a big fish in a smaller pond. I feel like I would drown if I got into Harvard and Yale and it wouldn't be worth it. Even if I got a full ride to a top 14, what if I can't even keep my scholarship past the first year? Maybe some of those schools only have an 8% chance at big law, I think I have a better chance at top 8% at those schools.


Just curious: what grade did you get on the last law school exam you took?

Also keep in mind that percentage chance at big law from these schools doesn't neccessarily equal your percentage chance at big law. Those jobs are going to kids with good grades, but also URMs, hotties, amazing work experience bros, nepotism, etc.

If you're a regular schmo, your chance is probably worse than the numbers you see.

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stillwater
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby stillwater » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:42 pm

BigZuck wrote:
TwirlerGirl wrote:Okay, here is my reasoning for not re-taking. First of all, obviously I'm not lazy or I wouldn't have a 4.0. I'm good at exams, not standardized tests. Also, law school is all about being top of your class. I feel that these schools give me a chance at being a big fish in a smaller pond. I feel like I would drown if I got into Harvard and Yale and it wouldn't be worth it. Even if I got a full ride to a top 14, what if I can't even keep my scholarship past the first year? Maybe some of those schools only have an 8% chance at big law, I think I have a better chance at top 8% at those schools.


Just curious: what grade did you get on the last law school exam you took?

Also keep in mind that percentage chance at big law from these schools doesn't neccessarily equal your percentage chance at big law. Those jobs are going to kids with good grades, but also URMs, hotties, amazing work experience bros, nepotism, etc.

If you're a regular schmo, your chance is probably worse than the numbers you see.


okay, heres the thing. even if you drown, relatively, at YHS, youll get a job. Also T14 merit scholarships dont come with stipulations that TTT schools put on scholarships.

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Otunga
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby Otunga » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:44 pm

At 3.9X I retook 168 (scored lower but it was a good move to retake). At 4.0, that puts you above or at least near (not sure about HYS) every 75th percentile for GPA. At 170+, you stand a chance at H and get massive money almost everywhere else. Please retake. It'd give you better employment odds, it'd make it cheaper, it'd get you out of Florida if that's what you're aiming for, etc.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:45 pm

Guys OP probably won't get 170+ on a retake if she really is struggling that much. But a score in the low 160s is certainly within reach and would give way more options.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby TheSpanishMain » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:49 pm

worldtraveler wrote:I am not trying to be rude here, but just brutally honest. You sound very immature and need to postpone law school. Most of your concern seems to be about weather and where you like to live. You don't know what you want to do, where to live, what you like, or what motivates you (besides money).



Yep.

OP, since everyone telling you to retake and you refusing to gets really old after awhile (even though that IS the right answer) I'll just assume you won't. In making this assumption, I'm also assuming that you're tacitly agreeing that you don't want BigLaw.

Since that's the case, you need to limit your debt so you can live decently on your 45-50k starting salary. Of your options, UF/FSU are your best bet, since you have Florida ties. Try to squeeze some scholarship money, live at home if at all possible, and graduate with little to no debt. Accept the fact that your options will be more constrained than they might otherwise have been.

OR: Retake the LSAT.

You can't say you want a high starting salary and simultaneously say you don't want to retake 157. You have to pick one or the other.

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smaug_
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby smaug_ » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:55 pm

If you can make the top whatever % at a crappy school, you almost assuredly could do well at a higher ranked school. People there aren't any smarter (and likely aren't working as hard) they just know how to play the game.

Also, if OP doesn't retake, going to FSU/UF isn't the best option. The second best option would be to not go to law school. OP's life would be much better if she didn't go than if she spent her money and time gambling on a very unlikely outcome at either school.

timbs4339
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:57 pm

OP: Describe your study methods.

What you're doing is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

It's natural to convince yourself that your best academic performance is ahead of you. I see it all the time. The problem is there are dozens of others who think the same as you, you're not special in this regard. Or, they are high LSAT low GPA splitters and think that law school is the time they are going to finally take school seriously or their high LSAT means they have high "lawyer IQ" that will give them an advantage over people like you. Or they have low LSAT and low GPA, but have work experience and think that it's going to make them more mature and harder working than most of their spoiled, K-JD classmates. Everyone has some excuse, and only some people will be right.

You really need to understand the way that legal hiring works. There's biglaw, which pays a "good salary," and then there is a huge gap between that and "smallaw" which pays a starting salary of around 45-60K. This allows schools to average out the numbers and say "the average salary is 95K" when it's really sink or swim. The schools on your list are essentially the same- they do not place many people into biglaw, most of those jobs will be in their local or regional market, and it is very hard to get the top 10 or 15% needed to be in that group.

However, a retake will save you more money and may even get you into a school where you have more than a coinflip's chance of working biglaw. It would be foolish not to retake and wait.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TwirlerGirl
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby TwirlerGirl » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:06 pm

timbs4339 wrote:OP: Describe your study methods.

What you're doing is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

It's natural to convince yourself that your best academic performance is ahead of you. I see it the time. The problem is there are dozens of others who think the same as you. Or, they are high LSAT low GPA splitters and think that law school is the time they are going to finally take school seriously or their high LSAT means they have high "lawyer IQ" that will give them an advantage over people like you. Or they have low LSAT and low GPA, but have work experience and think that it's going to make them more mature and harder working than most of their spoiled, K-JD classmates. Everyone has some excuse, and only some people will be right.

You really need to understand the way that legal hiring works. There's biglaw, which pays a "good salary," and then there is a huge gap between that and "smallaw" which pays a starting salary of around 45-60K. This allows schools to average out the numbers and say "the average salary is 95K" when it's really sink or swim. The schools on your list are essentially the same- they do not place many people into biglaw, most of those jobs will be in their local or regional market, and it is very hard to get the top 10 or 15% needed to be in that group.

However, a retake will save you more money and may even get you into a school where you have more than a coinflip's chance of working biglaw. It would be foolish not to retake and wait.


Thank you for explaining the average salary. The salary gap makes a lot of sense. I just hate the prospect of wasting a whole year of my life to study in the hopes that I increase my score. And if I only increase it to a 161, was it worth it? I've looked at the statistics of people with my GPA and that LSAT score and they're getting accepted to the same place as me with around the same scholarship amounts.

timbs4339
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:10 pm

TwirlerGirl wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:OP: Describe your study methods.

What you're doing is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

It's natural to convince yourself that your best academic performance is ahead of you. I see it the time. The problem is there are dozens of others who think the same as you. Or, they are high LSAT low GPA splitters and think that law school is the time they are going to finally take school seriously or their high LSAT means they have high "lawyer IQ" that will give them an advantage over people like you. Or they have low LSAT and low GPA, but have work experience and think that it's going to make them more mature and harder working than most of their spoiled, K-JD classmates. Everyone has some excuse, and only some people will be right.

You really need to understand the way that legal hiring works. There's biglaw, which pays a "good salary," and then there is a huge gap between that and "smallaw" which pays a starting salary of around 45-60K. This allows schools to average out the numbers and say "the average salary is 95K" when it's really sink or swim. The schools on your list are essentially the same- they do not place many people into biglaw, most of those jobs will be in their local or regional market, and it is very hard to get the top 10 or 15% needed to be in that group.

However, a retake will save you more money and may even get you into a school where you have more than a coinflip's chance of working biglaw. It would be foolish not to retake and wait.


Thank you for explaining the average salary. The salary gap makes a lot of sense. I just hate the prospect of wasting a whole year of my life to study in the hopes that I increase my score. And if I only increase it to a 161, was it worth it? I've looked at the statistics of people with my GPA and that LSAT score and they're getting accepted to the same place as me with around the same scholarship amounts.


You have to get out of the mentality of thinking you're wasting that year. You probably think that your "real life" begins when you get a job as a lawyer out of law school. It doesn't. It began when you took the LSAT and got a 4.0 in UG. That set you on a course that can either limit or expand your options. And if you don't increase your score, you'll have worked for a year, maybe earned some cash to offset tuition, and will have the exact same options.

What study methods did you use? I would also hold off on estimating money yet, as a lot of schools have yet to release their awards, so we don't know what a 4.0 161 can buy.

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smaug_
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby smaug_ » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:12 pm

TwirlerGirl wrote:Thank you for explaining the average salary. The salary gap makes a lot of sense. I just hate the prospect of wasting a whole year of my life to study in the hopes that I increase my score. And if I only increase it to a 161, was it worth it? I've looked at the statistics of people with my GPA and that LSAT score and they're getting accepted to the same place as me with around the same scholarship amounts.


I would be a bigger waste to go to law school for three years in the hopes that you can get a biglaw job, and if you don't get in the top 10% of a class that is numerically full of your peers you end up spending more far money attending than you'll be earning as a result. You can look at the statistics of the people who go to those schools and see that they'll be earning near what you would likely earn without a JD. (and they didn't spend money or three years of their lives to get those jobs!)

BigZuck
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:14 pm

A year spent drinking with your buddies and playing video games and staying up way too late watching old reruns of COPS while simultaneously acquiring an LSAT score to match that sweet GPA will do far more for your career (not to mention life satisfaction) than spending it toiling away at some mediocre law school.

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Otunga
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby Otunga » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:14 pm

TwirlerGirl wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:OP: Describe your study methods.

What you're doing is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

It's natural to convince yourself that your best academic performance is ahead of you. I see it the time. The problem is there are dozens of others who think the same as you. Or, they are high LSAT low GPA splitters and think that law school is the time they are going to finally take school seriously or their high LSAT means they have high "lawyer IQ" that will give them an advantage over people like you. Or they have low LSAT and low GPA, but have work experience and think that it's going to make them more mature and harder working than most of their spoiled, K-JD classmates. Everyone has some excuse, and only some people will be right.

You really need to understand the way that legal hiring works. There's biglaw, which pays a "good salary," and then there is a huge gap between that and "smallaw" which pays a starting salary of around 45-60K. This allows schools to average out the numbers and say "the average salary is 95K" when it's really sink or swim. The schools on your list are essentially the same- they do not place many people into biglaw, most of those jobs will be in their local or regional market, and it is very hard to get the top 10 or 15% needed to be in that group.

However, a retake will save you more money and may even get you into a school where you have more than a coinflip's chance of working biglaw. It would be foolish not to retake and wait.


Thank you for explaining the average salary. The salary gap makes a lot of sense. I just hate the prospect of wasting a whole year of my life to study in the hopes that I increase my score. And if I only increase it to a 161, was it worth it? I've looked at the statistics of people with my GPA and that LSAT score and they're getting accepted to the same place as me with around the same scholarship amounts.


By waiting a year, you're forgoing a 45-60K salary at best for a year (small law) that's nowhere near a sure outcome at the schools you've gotten into. Much of that salary would be going into the bigger loans that you have to take out by not retaking. I get that it sucks having to explain a retake and waiting to relatives, but all you can do is give them the information and the stats. If it turns out you don't increase it much, you didn't really waste a year as it's worth the effort. At least you wouldn't be looking back later on and thinking to yourself about 'what would've been if I had retaken'.

Total Litigator
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby Total Litigator » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:16 pm

Tell us how you studied and how much you studied.

Since you haven't addressed that issue before, I'm assuming studying was minimal?

If you studied for 40 hours a week for 3 months, and took 40+ timed practice tests, and still ended up with a 157, then retaking would probably be a pointless endeavor. But then again, at that point, so might being a lawyer.

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cron1834
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby cron1834 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:28 pm

I'm not necessarily from the Automatic-Retake school of thought, but I am from the Know What the Hell You're Doing academy. It just doesn't make sense that you're applying literally all over the country at regional schools. If you go to Minnesota, your job options are pretty much limited to Minnesota. If you go to Arizona, your job options are limited to the Southwest. Most of these schools' placement successes (and there are some) go to students from the area who have worked in the area and want to stay in the area. A random 22 year-old with baton-twirling on the resume should not be applying to regional schools unless you really want to put down roots in the region.

Applying across the country makes sense if you're applying to national schools (ie, the T14), but you don't have the LSAT for that.

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star fox
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby star fox » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:31 pm

TwirlerGirl wrote:I'm not retaking the LSAT and I'm not waiting another year. Sorry if that makes me stubborn or stupid to you. I asked for advice on these schools that I have been accepted to. Every successful lawyer did not graduate from a T-14 school.

This is not a logical response. Study more for the LSAT and you'll understand why. I presume you worked hard for 4 years to get that GPA. Why waste it by refusing to study for 3-6 months for one test where you know exactly what type of questions will be asked?

Read up on how OCI works. Before I came to this forum I was pretty ignorant on big law hiring. You need a summer associate position and to get one from a non - T14 requires you being near the top of your class as opposed to being around the median. It's far easier to get your LSAT score up than it is to be top 10 % of your law school class.

Big Dog
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby Big Dog » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:34 pm

I'm good at exams, not standardized tests.


Standard (female) response which predominates in HS, usually because parents enable the pov.

Spend some money on counseling instead. Retake. Attend LS for free.

I asked for advice on these schools...


All horrible choices, given your upside potential.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby ManoftheHour » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:39 pm

TwirlerGirl wrote:I just hate the prospect of wasting a whole year of my life to study in the hopes that I increase my score. And if I only increase it to a 161, was it worth it? I've looked at the statistics of people with my GPA and that LSAT score and they're getting accepted to the same place as me with around the same scholarship amounts.


You're not wasting a year unless all you plan to do is do nothing. In my two years off, I got to travel to three different countries, meet new friends, fall in love, save some $$$, gain some work experience, explored 2 other career paths (one of which I might choose over law school altogether).


<-----Took 2 years off and took 4 times. Last year, I got into a school at sticker. This year, I got into the same school with a full ride. HTH

daleearnhardt123
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby daleearnhardt123 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:42 pm

OP, you seem to value and be proud of your 4.0, as you should be. It's a golden ticket to many things in life. You know what happens to it once you commit to a law school? It NEVER matters again (this is, if an exaggeration at all, only a very small one). You could get HYS and it wouldn't matter, or you could get UF and it wouldn't matter. No one is ever gonna care about your 4.0 UGPA again. That said, think about your 4.0 as a wad of cash that you only get to spend once

Now, you've walked into one store (the law school store) and most of the products you want are off the shelf. Do you buy the garbage remaining? I would think not. You could wait until the products are back in stock (next year, with a better LSAT)
OR
You could go to a different store. Maybe their good products WILL be in stock. By that I mean maybe another graduate program. Maybe an entry level job in a lucrative but extremely selective field. Those options are open for you, and they represent much better "products" than the trash you wanna buy in store #1.

If you spend all your money (your 4.0) in store #1 and realize 3 years later that you made a mistake, none of the other stores are gonna let you spend that 4.0 all over again. It'll be gone and you'll be stuck with what you have.

Choose wisely.

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby WokeUpInACar » Thu Feb 06, 2014 3:51 pm

Big Dog wrote:
I'm good at exams, not standardized tests.


Standard (female) response which predominates in HS, usually because parents enable the pov.

Spend some money on counseling instead. Retake. Attend LS for free.

I asked for advice on these schools...


All horrible choices, given your upside potential.

The fuck does female have to do with this?

OP... for the love of God please retake. It would legitimately warm my heart to see another person make the right decision.

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Otunga
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby Otunga » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:04 pm

WokeUpInACar wrote:
Big Dog wrote:
I'm good at exams, not standardized tests.


Standard (female) response which predominates in HS, usually because parents enable the pov.

Spend some money on counseling instead. Retake. Attend LS for free.

I asked for advice on these schools...


All horrible choices, given your upside potential.

The fuck does female have to do with this?

OP... for the love of God please retake. It would legitimately warm my heart to see another person make the right decision.


I don't think the poster means anything bad by pointing out that it is often a female saying they suck at standardized tests. It's sort of a societal problem. In other words, I think it's more likely for a woman to say they suck at standardized tests than a guy due to the perception that guys are better at standardized tests.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby TheSpanishMain » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:18 pm

WokeUpInACar wrote:The fuck does female have to do with this?


I think he meant the females are socialized to be less confident in their academic ability, not they're innately less capable. I think there have been studies done to show that girls in class are much more likely to use qualifiers/hesitate when answering a question ("Well, I think..." or "I guess..." or "something like...") than boys are, even when they're actually pretty sure they have the right answer.

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anyriotgirl
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby anyriotgirl » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:21 pm

TheSpanishMain wrote:
WokeUpInACar wrote:The fuck does female have to do with this?


I think he meant the females are socialized to be less confident in their academic ability, not they're innately less capable. I think there have been studies done to show that girls in class are much more likely to use qualifiers/hesitate when answering a question ("Well, I think..." or "I guess..." or "something like...") than boys are, even when they're actually pretty sure they have the right answer.


I'm a girl and I do that. I know that I'm right, but for some reason people find women being right and knowing off-putting, so I quash my inner Hermione and play their game.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Choosing Between Eleven Law Schools

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:26 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:
WokeUpInACar wrote:The fuck does female have to do with this?


I think he meant the females are socialized to be less confident in their academic ability, not they're innately less capable. I think there have been studies done to show that girls in class are much more likely to use qualifiers/hesitate when answering a question ("Well, I think..." or "I guess..." or "something like...") than boys are, even when they're actually pretty sure they have the right answer.


I'm a girl and I do that. I know that I'm right, but for some reason people find women being right and knowing off-putting, so I quash my inner Hermione and play their game.


If this is a problem for you (and not looking down on you if it is), then definitely find a way to get over that before law school. Law school has a way of messing with people's confidence like nothing else. It seems especially bad for women.




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