UF Law v. FSU Law Forum

[runinthefront]

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[Nucky]

The undergrad reputation at UF really helps among non-attorneys (ie. potential clients). Much like at Notre Dame where the undergrad school's ranking far exceeds the law school ranking, the overall reputation benefits the law school and holders of its JD.

Is UF particularly well regarded? This is an honest question, because I have never heard of UF as anything above an average state flagship. I'm not trying to openly defy what you're saying, I just found it odd to compare UF to ND for undergrad prestige.

I have no opinions on the law schools, but the UF name definitely seems to carry a lot more weight than FSU in Florida.

UF is definitely regarded as a "Southern Ivy" in Florida. Also, I can confirm that FSU does indeed accept a lot of transfers from Stetson, FIU, Nova....even a non-neglible amount of Florida Coastal transfers.

That being said, numbers don't lie. FSU is outpacing UF in employment statistics and has been for the last few years...it's not some strange, new occurrence. The rankings have just finally caught up.

All things being equal (including cost)...pick whatever school you'd feel the most comfortable at or FSU for public interest vs. UF for private practice. These schools are one and the same.

Both schools are great options at the right price, but to be fair their employment numbers are a wash and UF places double what FSU does in Biglaw and fed clerk. Though no one should count on either from either schools.

[Nucky]

Also, it's so crazy how much rankings can influence the minds of people. Not even three months ago, if this question were asked and accompanied by a poll, the vast majority of people would go UF > FSU...even when FSU outperformed UF in employment last year.

I'm of the opinion that a large portion of TLSers who answer polls just pick the higher ranked school.

USNWR is a business. Shaking up the rankings sells magazines. No one in their right mind would pick Bama over ND, cost being equal, or Hastinga over Houston, etc.

The rankings must be taken with a grain of salt. So yeah,
I agree with you.

[wat]

Also, it's so crazy how much rankings can influence the minds of people. Not even three months ago, if this question were asked and accompanied by a poll, the vast majority of people would go UF > FSU...even when FSU outperformed UF in employment last year.

I'm of the opinion that a large portion of TLSers who answer polls just pick the higher ranked school.

USNWR is a business. Shaking up the rankings sells magazines. No one in their right mind would pick Bama over ND, cost being equal, or Hastinga over Houston, etc.

The rankings must be taken with a grain of salt. So yeah,
I agree with you.

I agree that rankings are generally sketchy, but there is some justification in this case. FSU's bar passage rates and employment numbers have been comparing favorably to UFs for some time now. It was inevitable that FSU would catch-up at some point.

Prior to this, FSU was generally seen as good in the liberal arts, music and film (befitting their former "girl's school" pedigree) while UF was where the sons of the Florida Gentry went for the "serious professions," like law, medicine and engineering.

I believe that FSUs administration calculated that being located in the state capital confers an advantage to FSU, while UF suffers somewhat from being in a small college town. Because of this, they placed special priority on their law school -- particularly in regards to their career placement center -- to give FSU the edge in a high-profile, professional major.

For this reason, I expect FSU will continue to aggressively prioritize law. They need it more than UF does, who still has its big-time research hospital to rest its laurels on.

[Nucky]

Also, it's so crazy how much rankings can influence the minds of people. Not even three months ago, if this question were asked and accompanied by a poll, the vast majority of people would go UF > FSU...even when FSU outperformed UF in employment last year.

I'm of the opinion that a large portion of TLSers who answer polls just pick the higher ranked school.

USNWR is a business. Shaking up the rankings sells magazines. No one in their right mind would pick Bama over ND, cost being equal, or Hastinga over Houston, etc.

The rankings must be taken with a grain of salt. So yeah,
I agree with you.

I agree that rankings are generally sketchy, but there is some justification in this case. FSU's bar passage rates and employment numbers have been comparing favorably to UFs for some time now. It was inevitable that FSU would catch-up at some point.

Prior to this, FSU was generally seen as good in the liberal arts, music and film (befitting their former "girl's school" pedigree) while UF was where the sons of the Florida Gentry went for the "serious professions," like law, medicine and engineering.

I believe that FSUs administration calculated that being located in the state capital confers an advantage to FSU, while UF suffers somewhat from being in a small college town. Because of this, they placed special priority on their law school -- particularly in regards to their career placement center -- to give FSU the edge.

I don't necessarily disagree. FSU Law has come a long way. But bar passage rates are also a wash. Both sit at around 90% so if you're diligent passing the BAR at either school shouldn't be an issue. Like I said though, FSU's location offers a definitive advantage for gov or PI work, so if that's what you want to do and costs are equal you should go there without hesitation.

But costs equal and you're aiming for private or undecided I still think you should go UF. FWIW, I'm an 0L faced with this decision and I am UF or bust if I'm going to the state of Florida for LS. But I want private. Otherwise I'd give FSU a hard look.

[sublime]

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[Nucky]

I have had this argument with Nucky and others before, but I tend to be pro-FSU, and was even before the rankings switch, on the basis that if you want the types of jobs that UF is better in (biglaw or fedclerk) you probably shouldn't go to either.

I don't think anyone is going UF over NU or CCN though. Sometimes you have to roll with the options you have. As long as cost is low, the outcomes should be solid from either.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Also, it's so crazy how much rankings can influence the minds of people. Not even three months ago, if this question were asked and accompanied by a poll, the vast majority of people would go UF > FSU...even when FSU outperformed UF in employment last year.

I'm of the opinion that a large portion of TLSers who answer polls just pick the higher ranked school.

USNWR is a business. Shaking up the rankings sells magazines. No one in their right mind would pick Bama over ND, cost being equal, or Hastinga over Houston, etc.

The rankings must be taken with a grain of salt. So yeah,
I agree with you.

I agree that rankings are generally sketchy, but there is some justification in this case. FSU's bar passage rates and employment numbers have been comparing favorably to UFs for some time now. It was inevitable that FSU would catch-up at some point.

Prior to this, FSU was generally seen as good in the liberal arts, music and film (befitting their former "girl's school" pedigree) while UF was where the sons of the Florida Gentry went for the "serious professions," like law, medicine and engineering.

I believe that FSUs administration calculated that being located in the state capital confers an advantage to FSU, while UF suffers somewhat from being in a small college town. Because of this, they placed special priority on their law school -- particularly in regards to their career placement center -- to give FSU the edge.

I don't necessarily disagree. FSU Law has come a long way. But bar passage rates are also a wash. Both sit at around 90% so if you're diligent passing the BAR at either school shouldn't be an issue. Like I said though, FSU's location offers a definitive advantage for gov or PI work, so if that's what you want to do and costs are equal you should go there without hesitation.

But costs equal and you're aiming for private or undecided I still think you should go UF. FWIW, I'm an 0L faced with this decision and I am UF or bust if I'm going to the state of Florida for LS. But I want private. Otherwise I'd give FSU a hard look.

Wait... You think U of F is a private school? Sorry I'm confused.

Also +1 to whoever said UF would be winning the poll if they were ranked higher. It such a shame that even on TLS people are such rankings whores. I remember TLS from just two, three years ago.. these UF/FSU threads always had more UF votes at equal cost, despite the rational posters telling everyone that the schools were peers and each school had advantages.

[sublime]

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[wat]

One question about the private employment numbers for UF:

Since UF Law is much older than FSU Law, wouldn't UFs tilt towards private employment be partly the result of the fact that UF students are more likely have family connections in private firms?

Obviously, if you have connections to UF alumni, pick UF. If you are a lone wolf, I doubt there is much of a difference between the schools.

[Nucky]

I meant that I want to work in private practice.

[Nucky]

One question about the private employment numbers for UF:

Since UF Law is much older than FSU Law, wouldn't UFs tilt towards private employment be partly the result of the fact that UF students are more likely have family connections in private firms?

Obviously, if you have connections to UF alumni, pick UF. If you are a lone wolf, I doubt there is much of a difference between the schools.

That's a stretch. You're assuming no FSU students have the same connections. You just have to take the data at face value. No way to tell otherwise.

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[raininthedesert]

There are a multitude of threads on this topic and every other permutation of law school in Florida vs. law school in Florida thread.

Assuming COA is the same, there is no differentiating which one is "better" than the other. Your best bet is to decide whether you value externship opportunities during the school year -- which are better at FSU -- and/or what size environment you want to be in. FSU is small an intimate but, due to its size, has a lot smaller course selection and other law school oriented activities. UF has every course you could imagine under the sun and is a larger environment.

Visit both and see which one feels right. Logic won't answer this question.

[Nucky]

Miami and UF are generally regarded as the top schools for undergrad, with FSU not far behind.

It seems like UF's lay prestige, among Floridians, grew significantly during the Urban Meijer (and Billy Donovan) era. I've often wondered if the same was true outside of Florida.

Does that translate to academic prestige though? While ND certainly has cache with the football crowds (particularly those dreaming back to the glory days), it also carries with it a decently strong academic reputation on level with Duke, Georgetown, NYU, etc. I have never once in my life heard about UF in any sort of academic light. Success on the football field or basketball court does not equal academic preftige.

I agree.

That's why I keep qualifying my "prestige" comments with "in Florida." Floridians think UF is borderline ivy-league. I am not joking.

I can attest to that. To answer that one question, no, most people outside the state of Florida know that UF and FSU are both peer state schools. I'd say they are on par with Ohio State, UGA, and Clemson in terms of state schools. Top 25 state schools, but not on UVA's or UNC's level. However, within the state of Florida, the Gators carry unreal prestige. I'd bet UF would carry MORE weight there than any school besides HYPS and MIT. That said, unless your goal is Shitlaw, you don't care what the layperson's thoughts are about your school. Firms are going to know which is better. FSU has been pummeling the Gators for a while now in actual employment and it's only a matter of time until the rankings reflect that. I wouldn't go to either for more than free, but if I were to choose, I'd go with the Noles. Even if they have a rapist on their football team.[/quote]

That's not true. Their overall numbers are essentially a wash and UF has about double FSU's Biglaw/fed clerk placement.

[phireblast]

I'm a FL resident who was accepted to both UF and FSU with 29k from UF and 30k from FSU in scholarship money.

I had no previous inclinations to either school, so I was totally open to ending up in either school. The 1k in scholarship difference didn't really make a big difference for me.

I was impressed by both schools. My mindset going into this cycle was that I wanted to go to the best school I could gain admission to. Over time, through the perspectives and advice found on TLS I changed that to "I want to go to the best school with the best employment chances while taking out the least amount of debt." Watching my student debt from undergrad grow by the thousands due to interest scared the crap out of me and really made me think hard about taking out more loans.

I also wanted to be realistic about my performance at law school. I didn't want to make any decisions based on the least possible outcome. I didn't have the test scores for a realistic shot at big law, so I wrote those goals off for now. My decision was not influenced by the shoddy chance at big law at either UF or FSU, though, I will admit that UF has placed better in that category and I do believe that does carry weight.

The obvious answer always seemed to be UF. But as I monitored both schools, it just felt like FSU was trending upward and UF was stalling. I've had this feeling months before the USNWR offered superficial evidence for this.

I still, to this day, cannot understand why and how FSU was able to place more students (in terms of raw numbers) in long term, full time, JD required jobs than the University of Florida. The fact that UF's graduating class is much larger by sheer numbers should give them an obvious edge. It also, for me, discredited the notion that UF was so much more prestigious.

If you're graduating more students, have a larger (and loyal) alumni base, and have the "prestige" factor, then how the heck are you placing less students in long term JD required, full time jobs than FSU who graduates less students, has a smaller alumni base, and "lacks" prestige?

I think the answer really comes down to the opportunities provided by location.

I took a year off after graduating undergrad, yet my resume still sucks. I'm sure there are a lot of people in my position. I ultimately chose FSU over UF because I wanted to be in Tallahassee, which I feel will provide me with a chance to bolster my resume. 500+ law firms in Tallahassee means there are more than 2 law firms per incoming 1L (just talking numbers here, I don't literally mean that 1Ls will be having threesomes with law firms). On top of that, you have everything else the state capital would offer.

I am not saying this is the end of the UF/FSU debate or that I am correct in my decision. I could be totally wrong here. At the end of the day I'm just another clueless 0L trying to piece the puzzle together to make the best decision for myself. I'm not posting this as a lecture to anyone here. I know you've all done your homework in making your own decisions.

Honestly I looked hard for a valuable UF/FSU thread and really came up short. I think we should all lay out the reasonings for our decision for future 0Ls. I think this thread has already been better than any of the others I could find via search function.

[Nucky]

I'm a FL resident who was accepted to both UF and FSU with 29k from UF and 30k from FSU in scholarship money.

I had no previous inclinations to either school, so I was totally open to ending up in either school. The 1k in scholarship difference didn't really make a big difference for me.

I was impressed by both schools. My mindset going into this cycle was that I wanted to go to the best school I could gain admission to. Over time, through the perspectives and advice found on TLS I changed that to "I want to go to the best school with the best employment chances while taking out the least amount of debt." Watching my student debt from undergrad grow by the thousands due to interest scared the crap out of me and really made me think hard about taking out more loans.

I also wanted to be realistic about my performance at law school. I didn't want to make any decisions based on the least possible outcome. I didn't have the test scores for a realistic shot at big law, so I wrote those goals off for now. My decision was not influenced by the shoddy chance at big law at either UF or FSU, though, I will admit that UF has placed better in that category and I do believe that does carry weight.

The obvious answer always seemed to be UF. But as I monitored both schools, it just felt like FSU was trending upward and UF was stalling. I've had this feeling months before the USNWR offered superficial evidence for this.

I still, to this day, cannot understand why and how FSU was able to place more students (in terms of raw numbers) in long term, full time, JD required jobs than the University of Florida. The fact that UF's graduating class is much larger by sheer numbers should give them an obvious edge. It also, for me, discredited the notion that UF was so much more prestigious.

If you're graduating more students, have a larger (and loyal) alumni base, and have the "prestige" factor, then how the heck are you placing less students in long term JD required, full time jobs than FSU who graduates less students, has a smaller alumni base, and "lacks" prestige?

I think the answer really comes down to the opportunities provided by location.

I took a year off after graduating undergrad, yet my resume still sucks. I'm sure there are a lot of people in my position. I ultimately chose FSU over UF because I wanted to be in Tallahassee, which I feel will provide me with a chance to bolster my resume. 500+ law firms in Tallahassee means there are more than 2 law firms per incoming 1L (just talking numbers here, I don't literally mean that 1Ls will be having threesomes with law firms). On top of that, you have everything else the state capital would offer.

I am not saying this is the end of the UF/FSU debate or that I am correct in my decision. I could be totally wrong here. At the end of the day I'm just another clueless 0L trying to piece the puzzle together to make the best decision for myself. I'm not posting this as a lecture to anyone here. I know you've all done your homework in making your own decisions.

Honestly I looked hard for a valuable UF/FSU thread and really came up short. I think we should all lay out the reasonings for our decision for future 0Ls. I think this thread has already been better than any of the others I could find via search function.

Solid post. I just want to point out that UF having a larger class does not give it an advantage. In fact, this is likely why it's employment numbers are not significantly better than FSU's. Whether it is a better school or not, there are a finite number of jobs available. Also, UF has recently cut it's class size down to 300-ish. It was 400+ before.

All that being said, as the economy gets better I think the class of 2017 will have great prospects from either UF or FSU.

Of course, none of this is stopping shit schools like FL Coastal from flooding the market with over 500 grads headed for a life of financial ruin.

[sublime]

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[rdelaney]

UF really should stop being a diploma mill. And it hurts them, but I don't see why we should give them leeway on it. They made the conscious decision to continue to have large classes despite high underemployment

This is a good point, but the numbers don't seem to make sense. The amount of matriculates for both schools are quite interesting. UF has twice as many students accepting an offer (UF: 39% & FSU: 20%). I mean, I guess they can control that number with WL students, but I feel like not many students are accepted off the WL. I really think the whole UF v FSU is a personal choice, the differences are not very present.

Check these out:
http://www.law.ufl.edu/_pdf/about/Std509InfoReport1.pdf

http://www.law.fsu.edu/prospective_stud ... rt2013.pdf

As a 0L, I've gone to UG at UF and that was a big factor in my decision. As well as the $$$ I got from UF and NOT from FSU. After going to both ASDs, I really felt that UF had more to offer with alumni networking, affordability, and leverage in the legal community in Florida. FSU just kept touting the #1 ranking in Florida (which wasn't a factor in my decision), faculty scholarship (also don't care), and the location (which is one thing I really liked).

After sitting and thinking about what was important to me:
Networking and Alumni Network
Cost of Attendance
Enjoyment of the next 3 years

All of the other numbers didn't matter in my opinion. Bar passage rates?? If I apply myself, I'll be passing and that's all I care about. Employment stats??? Those were important, but USNWR is pulling from THREE years ago, the new rankings "2015" are pulled from the "2012" records. I can just check out recent results from the ABA and the difference is negligible. The people not getting jobs are probably bottom 30% and didnt apply themselves to find a job throughout law school. But that is only an assumption.

[sublime]

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[cricketlove00]

UF really should stop being a diploma mill. And it hurts them, but I don't see why we should give them leeway on it. They made the conscious decision to continue to have large classes despite high underemployment

This is why I withdrew to be honest.

Is this debate really still going on? It's a wash. Which one is cheaper?

[wat]

FSUs rise was largely due to their decision to prioritize their law school (along with their better location).

I expect that FSU will continue to rise in rankings simply because they *need* this more than UF does. They will devote whatever resources they can to ensure that they can stay on top in at least one of the professional fields. UF traditionally beats FSU in most other professional fields, so UF can afford to be a bit complacent here. When supporters of either school start talking academic smack, UF can still point to their colleges of engineering and medicine.

[rdelaney]

FSUs rise was largely due to their decision to prioritize their law school (along with their better location).

I expect that FSU will continue to rise in rankings simply because they *need* this more than UF does. They will devote whatever resources they can to ensure that they can stay on top in at least one of the professional fields. UF traditionally beats FSU in most other professional fields, so UF can afford to be a bit complacent here. When supporters of either school start talking academic smack, UF can still point to their colleges of engineering and medicine.

It will be interesting to see how this works out in the next couple of years. The fire on UF's ass is practically an inferno. They don't like being second best to FSU. The alumni don't want that to happen either. I don't think UF will get complacent in the next few years. So keep your eyes peeled!

[Nucky]

I agree rdelaney. Weird that you got $$$ from UF but not FSU. In that situation, it is definitely the right call to go to UF.

They are pretty much equal at equal cost. I give the slight edge to FSU, but reasonable minds could disagree about that.

UF did cut their class size by 25%. They deserve credit for that. I'd like to see it cut further, but the downsizing reflects positively on UF.

Florida Gulf Coast cranks out over 500 grads a year. UM has a huge class as well. UF is not some shameless diploma mill. You're better than that sublime. That's an unwarranted cheap shot.

[runinthefront]

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