Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

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patogordo
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby patogordo » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:12 am

i would suggest using $50k on therapy to learn to cope with the lack of a yale degree and then pocket the difference.

legends159
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby legends159 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:12 pm

stillwater wrote:Chicago for as good as it is just isn't in the same league as Yale.


lol wut? we're not comparing yale with fordham or some other school in the same range. don't be naive - there's nothing you can do with a yale degree that you can't do with a chicago degree.

tiltedwindmill
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby tiltedwindmill » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:19 pm

legends159 wrote:
stillwater wrote:Chicago for as good as it is just isn't in the same league as Yale.


lol wut? we're not comparing yale with fordham or some other school in the same range. don't be naive - there's nothing you can do with a yale degree that you can't do with a chicago degree.


Isn't Yale's clerkship rate about twice Chicago's?

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jselson
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby jselson » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:20 pm

tiltedwindmill wrote:
legends159 wrote:
stillwater wrote:Chicago for as good as it is just isn't in the same league as Yale.


lol wut? we're not comparing yale with fordham or some other school in the same range. don't be naive - there's nothing you can do with a yale degree that you can't do with a chicago degree.


Isn't Yale's clerkship rate about twice Chicago's?


It's closer to three times the rate.

legends159
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby legends159 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:24 pm

jselson wrote:
tiltedwindmill wrote:
legends159 wrote:
stillwater wrote:Chicago for as good as it is just isn't in the same league as Yale.


lol wut? we're not comparing yale with fordham or some other school in the same range. don't be naive - there's nothing you can do with a yale degree that you can't do with a chicago degree.


Isn't Yale's clerkship rate about twice Chicago's?


It's closer to three times the rate.


not sure how that's relevant. is there a clerkship you can get a yale that you can't get at chicago? will a specific judge only hire yale students or never hire chicago grads as a matter of policy?

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thewaves
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby thewaves » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:25 pm

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/c ... clerkships

Normal caveats on statistics and self-selection apply, etc. etc.
Last edited by thewaves on Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cicero76
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby Cicero76 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:25 pm

legends159 wrote:not sure how that's relevant. is there a clerkship you can get a yale that you can't get at chicago? will a specific judge only hire yale students or never hire chicago grads as a matter of policy?


Yeah. I believe their names are John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Sam Alito, Clarence Thomas, Anthony Kennedy, Sonia Sotomayor, Ruth Ginsberg, Elena Kagan, and Stephen Breyer.

/troll

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:36 pm

legends159 wrote:not sure how that's relevant. is there a clerkship you can get a yale that you can't get at chicago? will a specific judge only hire yale students or never hire chicago grads as a matter of policy?

That's like saying there is no Biglaw job available to you from Penn that isn't available to you from Fordham. I'd still take Chicago but only because of the huge difference in cost.

0913djp
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby 0913djp » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:27 pm

Free is good.

That is all.

WheninLaw
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby WheninLaw » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:36 pm

Cicero76 wrote:
legends159 wrote:not sure how that's relevant. is there a clerkship you can get a yale that you can't get at chicago? will a specific judge only hire yale students or never hire chicago grads as a matter of policy?


Yeah. I believe their names are John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Sam Alito, Clarence Thomas, Anthony Kennedy, Sonia Sotomayor, Ruth Ginsberg, Elena Kagan, and Stephen Breyer.

/troll


This is fairly dumb, considering Chicago always places at least 1 (and often 2+) on SCOTUS each year. Also, if you are deciding career goals based on SCOTUS clerkship opportunities, you may be beyond help.

Yale has an insane clerkship rate. Is that worth 100K? For me the answer is "hell no," but I could see someone rationally answering yes.

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Ambi-Turner
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby Ambi-Turner » Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:43 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
Cicero76 wrote:
legends159 wrote:not sure how that's relevant. is there a clerkship you can get a yale that you can't get at chicago? will a specific judge only hire yale students or never hire chicago grads as a matter of policy?


Yeah. I believe their names are John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Sam Alito, Clarence Thomas, Anthony Kennedy, Sonia Sotomayor, Ruth Ginsberg, Elena Kagan, and Stephen Breyer.

/troll


This is fairly dumb, considering Chicago always places at least 1 (and often 2+) on SCOTUS each year. Also, if you are deciding career goals based on SCOTUS clerkship opportunities, you may be beyond help.

Yale has an insane clerkship rate. Is that worth 100K? For me the answer is "hell no," but I could see someone rationally answering yes.

This. Also: http://abovethelaw.com/2010/02/clarence ... arent-ttt/. Thomas still holds a lot of resentment towards Yale. In his book he wrote about how he put a 15 cent price tag on his diploma, because "that's how much his degree was worth." (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wire ... ce-thomas/) In other news, Justice Thomas is a tool.
Last edited by Ambi-Turner on Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

abl
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby abl » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:00 pm

I'm a fed clerk paying loans and still think Yale is the easy choice.

(1) We know what the Ruby is in our chambers, but it doesn't factor into our clerkship/externship decisions. Yale, on the other hand, carries a lot of weight. I have now had close experience with two fed judges (both in desirable districts/circuits) and that was the case for both of them. Neither of them went to HYS. The couple times something of this nature has come up in my conversations with people clerking for other chambers, the general consensus has been that nobody cares about what scholarships you got pre-law school, but people DO care whether you went to HYS or not.

(2) Loans are a bummer, but do you want to know what's more of a bummer? Not getting the job that you want. Chicago will open nearly all of the same doors that Yale will, but some will only be open a crack, whereas at Yale they will be wide open. I may have stretched that analogy too far -- my point is that the mere fact that it's POSSIBLE to get fed clerkships, fed jobs, prestigious PI, etc from both schools is only part of the question. The rest is: how likely is it that you'll get the position that you want? For something like biglaw, where your chances are high at both schools, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to pay a lot extra for the difference between 99% likelihood and 75% likelihood (or whatever the numbers are). Either way, you're probably getting biglaw, so you might as well save your money. But that's simply not the case for fed clerkships, academia, prestigious PI, or prestigious gov positions. These are all competitive enough, that even if you work very hard at Chicago, you almost certainly won't get them. And even at Yale your chances won't be great. But the degrees of unlikelihood at these two schools are wildly different. Factor in the reality that many/most Yale students are not killing themselves academically whereas just about everyone at Chicago is, and you have a situation where the differences become even more magnified.

(3) There are other reasons to go to Yale than just job outcomes. The experiences you have, your fellow classmates, etc, will be different. It's debatable whether those differences alone justify paying more, but they're something that you should consider -- and something that should probably push you over the edge if you're on the fence.

Pulsar
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby Pulsar » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:43 pm

What will you do after your clerkship abl? Just curious. If it's not a firm, then I could see how Yale would make sense for you. If it is a firm then I don't think even one in your position could say Yale over a ruby would have made sense.

abl
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby abl » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:51 pm

Pulsar wrote:What will you do after your clerkship abl? Just curious. If it's not a firm, then I could see how Yale would make sense for you. If it is a firm then I don't think even one in your position could say Yale over a ruby would have made sense.


I'm not sure I understand the question exactly, but without going into too many details, for all of the options I'm currently considering -- both short term and long term -- a clerkship and/or HYS are helpful at the least and borderline required at the most. Think prestigious PI, prestigious gov, appellate litigation, academia, etc.

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jselson
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby jselson » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:53 pm

Lol, the goalpost shifting is hilarious. Just wait til you're a student! Just wait til you've graduated! Just wait until after you're clerkship! THE DEEP PAIN OF REGRET OF ATTENDING YALE WILL FIND YOU

abl
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby abl » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:26 pm

jselson wrote:Lol, the goalpost shifting is hilarious. Just wait til you're a student! Just wait til you've graduated! Just wait until after you're clerkship! THE DEEP PAIN OF REGRET OF ATTENDING YALE WILL FIND YOU


? There's no goalpost shifting. Me pointing out I'm a clerk was in response to the dismissive comments of many on this thread that only 0Ls think that Yale is the superior option. Incidentally, I've never claimed to have attended Yale. But from my experience, your law school choice will impact you when you are a student, when you graduate, and after a clerkship.

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Cicero76
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby Cicero76 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:31 pm

abl wrote:
jselson wrote:Lol, the goalpost shifting is hilarious. Just wait til you're a student! Just wait til you've graduated! Just wait until after you're clerkship! THE DEEP PAIN OF REGRET OF ATTENDING YALE WILL FIND YOU


? There's no goalpost shifting. Me pointing out I'm a clerk was in response to the dismissive comments of many on this thread that only 0Ls think that Yale is the superior option. Incidentally, I've never claimed to have attended Yale. But from my experience, your law school choice will impact you when you are a student, when you graduate, and after a clerkship.


That's what he means. The anti-Yale bros keep saying you'll regret Yale vs. a full ride, but keep pushing back when that supposed regret will happen.

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patogordo
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby patogordo » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:35 pm

you'll never regret either decision because cognitive dissonance. subjective "regret" is a pretty terrible metric for decisionmaking.

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jselson
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby jselson » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:44 pm

patogordo wrote:you'll never regret either decision because cognitive dissonance. subjective "regret" is a pretty terrible metric for decisionmaking.


If I wanted a clerkship, went to Chicago, was above median and didn't get one, I'd regret not going to Yale. If I was in the top 5% and got a clerkship, but not SCOTUS, I'd regret not going to Yale.

Pulsar
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby Pulsar » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:50 pm

You read more impurity in my motives than is warranted. He might be one of the folks for whom Yale over $$$ *might* be warranted (I don't have enough info to be sure) it sounds like. I was just curious. Only if he had said "oh y'know just going back to my V10 like normal" would I laugh.

Nelson--most clerkships aren't worth a quarter-million dollars. There are plenty of people who could clerk and don't because they won't pay even the $50k-ish (after-tax and clerkship bonus) penalty it costs to clerk. I think your statements indicate that you haven't thought seriously about these choices.

LochnerMonster
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby LochnerMonster » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:52 pm

abl wrote:I'm a fed clerk paying loans and still think Yale is the easy choice.

(1) We know what the Ruby is in our chambers, but it doesn't factor into our clerkship/externship decisions. Yale, on the other hand, carries a lot of weight. I have now had close experience with two fed judges (both in desirable districts/circuits) and that was the case for both of them. Neither of them went to HYS. The couple times something of this nature has come up in my conversations with people clerking for other chambers, the general consensus has been that nobody cares about what scholarships you got pre-law school, but people DO care whether you went to HYS or not.

(2) Loans are a bummer, but do you want to know what's more of a bummer? Not getting the job that you want. Chicago will open nearly all of the same doors that Yale will, but some will only be open a crack, whereas at Yale they will be wide open. I may have stretched that analogy too far -- my point is that the mere fact that it's POSSIBLE to get fed clerkships, fed jobs, prestigious PI, etc from both schools is only part of the question. The rest is: how likely is it that you'll get the position that you want? For something like biglaw, where your chances are high at both schools, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to pay a lot extra for the difference between 99% likelihood and 75% likelihood (or whatever the numbers are). Either way, you're probably getting biglaw, so you might as well save your money. But that's simply not the case for fed clerkships, academia, prestigious PI, or prestigious gov positions. These are all competitive enough, that even if you work very hard at Chicago, you almost certainly won't get them. And even at Yale your chances won't be great. But the degrees of unlikelihood at these two schools are wildly different. Factor in the reality that many/most Yale students are not killing themselves academically whereas just about everyone at Chicago is, and you have a situation where the differences become even more magnified.

(3) There are other reasons to go to Yale than just job outcomes. The experiences you have, your fellow classmates, etc, will be different. It's debatable whether those differences alone justify paying more, but they're something that you should consider -- and something that should probably push you over the edge if you're on the fence.


+1

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jselson
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby jselson » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:52 pm

Pulsar wrote:You read more impurity in my motives than is warranted. He might be one of the folks for whom Yale over $$$ *might* be warranted (I don't have enough info to be sure) it sounds like. I was just curious. Only if he had said "oh y'know just going back to my V10 like normal" would I laugh.

Nelson--most clerkships aren't worth a quarter-million dollars. There are plenty of people who could clerk and don't because they won't pay even the $50k-ish (after-tax and clerkship bonus) penalty it costs to clerk. I think your statements indicate that you haven't thought seriously about these choices.


Yes, clerkships have no benefits besides the $50k bonus after leaving for a firm, Jesus Christ. Clearly, that is the only reason they are so highly sought after.

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thewaves
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby thewaves » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:06 pm

abl, how much does Y stand out vs H and S for your judges? Is it just a reputation thing?

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patogordo
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby patogordo » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:38 pm

jselson wrote:
Pulsar wrote:You read more impurity in my motives than is warranted. He might be one of the folks for whom Yale over $$$ *might* be warranted (I don't have enough info to be sure) it sounds like. I was just curious. Only if he had said "oh y'know just going back to my V10 like normal" would I laugh.

Nelson--most clerkships aren't worth a quarter-million dollars. There are plenty of people who could clerk and don't because they won't pay even the $50k-ish (after-tax and clerkship bonus) penalty it costs to clerk. I think your statements indicate that you haven't thought seriously about these choices.


Yes, clerkships have no benefits besides the $50k bonus after leaving for a firm, Jesus Christ. Clearly, that is the only reason they are so highly sought after.

that's not what he's referring to when he says $50k-ish, genius

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jselson
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Re: Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard

Postby jselson » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:41 pm

patogordo wrote:
jselson wrote:
Pulsar wrote:You read more impurity in my motives than is warranted. He might be one of the folks for whom Yale over $$$ *might* be warranted (I don't have enough info to be sure) it sounds like. I was just curious. Only if he had said "oh y'know just going back to my V10 like normal" would I laugh.

Nelson--most clerkships aren't worth a quarter-million dollars. There are plenty of people who could clerk and don't because they won't pay even the $50k-ish (after-tax and clerkship bonus) penalty it costs to clerk. I think your statements indicate that you haven't thought seriously about these choices.


Yes, clerkships have no benefits besides the $50k bonus after leaving for a firm, Jesus Christ. Clearly, that is the only reason they are so highly sought after.

that's not what he's referring to when he says $50k-ish, genius


Whatever, misread it, sue me.




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