Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard Forum

[dobryden]

i would suggest using $50k on therapy to learn to cope with the lack of a yale degree and then pocket the difference.

This is my favorite line from this thread.

[kaiser]

For what it's worth, I regret choosing YLS over the Hamilton at Columbia all the time. I acknowledge that I have done well in large part due to professor connections and other opportunities at YLS (I have two clerkships in very competitive courts). But I was very unhappy at YLS and I resent the albatross of debt.

Having been out of school for a few years, I now think that a lot of the YLS advantage is self-perpetuating. People at YLS are extremely ambitious, talented and successful. They would still be ambitious, talented and successful somewhere else. The Hamilton scholars I know have all done very well and are clerking on the same courts I am and practicing in the same fields that I am interested in. I have no way of knowing if I would have done as well professionally at Columbia as I did at Yale, but I am fairly certain that I would have been much happier.

If you have these choices, you will do well wherever you go. Try to make a decision based on more than theoretical advantages for unicorn job opportunities. Learn more about the culture of the schools, the curriculum, what it is really like to be a student there. YLS is a great law school, but it is not right for everyone.

Amen. Can't tell you how many times I hear students who went to Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, etc. say that they wish they had taken the full scholarship at a slightly lower ranked school. We aren't talking T3 to T20 or something. The Harvard guy I know had a pretty much full scholarship at Columbia that he passed up, and the Stanford guy could have gone to Berkeley for close to free. Plus I know a guy who passed up a full scholarship to Cornell to go to Columbia at sticker. Despite their awesome job outcomes, all 3 have indicated that they wish they took the debt-free/low debt route.

[jkwo07]

you'll never regret either decision because cognitive dissonance. subjective "regret" is a pretty terrible metric for decisionmaking.

[scoopDeeDoo]

..

[dueprocess14]

Hey! A YLS 3L here. Given the fairly significant differential in debt between YLS and Chicago, I'd say Chicago is pretty tempting, but I do think YLS is pretty well positioned in terms of foreign policy and especially State Dep't. With Koh back at YLS and the very decent likelihood of a Clinton campaign and decent likelihood of a Clinton win, I just can't imagine any other school that comes close to connections to State right now. We send a couple of people there every summer, and just about every year at least one person gets a Heyman fellowship to design their own year working at the State Department: http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/cdo ... wships.htm. They often parley this into other jobs at State or elsewhere.

In terms of Public Policy, have you considered Woodrow Wilson? It'd add zero additional debt (actually subtract some at YLS, since you'd only pay for 2.5 years of YLS), and I've known several people who have done YLS + MPP at WW and then ended up at State or similar foreign policy-related gov't jobs post-law/grad school.

All of this is to say, depending on how confident you are you want to do foreign policy work, YLS may actually be pretty nicely situated. I say this knowing little about Chicago's resources in this field, but I do get the sense at the moment that my friends at YLS interested in moving into foreign policy post-YLS are really, really well situated to do so compared to other law students at top law schools. I'm sure a smart, talented, and motivated person could do this from either Chicago or YLS, however.

The other thing I'd say, although you didn't explicitly ask, is that I've never been part of a more impressive and inspiring group of folks in my life, and I've done a Ph.D., masters, and undergrad each at "shiny"/prestigous institutions. Me peers have also become some of my closest, most cherished friendships. For me, there's no price tag on that. But it's clearly not a universal experience, as a previous poster indicated. And there are a healthy share of complete pricks, just like anywhere else.

Congrats and good luck! Both options are pretty amazing!

[jimbeam21]

I don't understand why anyone who wants to go into PI would be willing to take on debt.

From the Yale website: "In 2014-2015, students will be expected, depending on the class year, to meet the first $41,100, $42,100 or $43,100 of their need with loans."

That means even if the rest of your COA is covered by a need-based grant, you're still looking at around $130k in loans!!!

Sure, you can rely on LIPP/LRAP/COAP or whatever. The downfall of relying on this has been highlighted in other threads on here. Take the Ruby, a less prestigious post-grad position, and live debt free.

I'm in a similar position here, minus Yale but plus Stanford, so feel free to PM me.

[Tiago Splitter]

Sure, you can rely on LIPP/LRAP/COAP or whatever. The downfall of relying on this has been highlighted in other threads on here. Take the Ruby, a less prestigious post-grad position, and live debt free.

I'd recommend the Ruby as well, but I wouldn't make any decisions based on concerns that Yale will leave PI people out in the cold if PSLF gets reduced or eliminated.

[aboutmydaylight]

I don't understand why anyone who wants to go into PI would be willing to take on debt.

From the Yale website: "In 2014-2015, students will be expected, depending on the class year, to meet the first $41,100, $42,100 or $43,100 of their need with loans."

That means even if the rest of your COA is covered by a need-based grant, you're still looking at around $130k in loans!!!

Sure, you can rely on LIPP/LRAP/COAP or whatever. The downfall of relying on this has been highlighted in other threads on here. Take the Ruby, a less prestigious post-grad position, and live debt free.

I'm in a similar position here, minus Yale but plus Stanford, so feel free to PM me.

$130k in debt from Yale is pretty good. You can also look at average debt at graduation for those that took out a loan and for last year, Yale was at $112k. That will increase, but its still manageable.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+4

I mean half tuition schollys now a days might cover 80k over 3 years? That effectively puts you at 140k-160k of debt at graduation depending on school if you have no other source of contribution. I think if you can get out of HYS with debt in the low 100s, you can justify the decision. That may be the "average" debt at graduation, but who knows how feasible, or what the median is. Of course, you're choice is only as good as your next best option, and with a Ruby on the table...

[PrideandGlory1776]

Yale > Hamilton > Ruby > Harvard

[dobryden]

I don't understand why anyone who wants to go into PI would be willing to take on debt.

From the Yale website: "In 2014-2015, students will be expected, depending on the class year, to meet the first $41,100, $42,100 or $43,100 of their need with loans."

That means even if the rest of your COA is covered by a need-based grant, you're still looking at around $130k in loans!!!

Sure, you can rely on LIPP/LRAP/COAP or whatever. The downfall of relying on this has been highlighted in other threads on here. Take the Ruby, a less prestigious post-grad position, and live debt free.

I'm in a similar position here, minus Yale but plus Stanford, so feel free to PM me.

$130k in debt from Yale is pretty good. You can also look at average debt at graduation for those that took out a loan and for last year, Yale was at $112k. That will increase, but its still manageable.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+4

I mean half tuition schollys now a days might cover 80k

I wanted to return to this topic with some numbers, having received my financial aid from Yale. They are giving me about $13,000 a year, but also expecting my parents to contribute $16,000 per year (which is a hardship on them). I'll take on about $54,000 in debt per year - and perhaps more if my family is unable/unwilling to contribute.

Chicago is debt-free, allowing me to graduate with about $20,000 in savings.

With these figures, does this change anyone's opinion?

over 3 years? That effectively puts you at 140k-160k of debt at graduation depending on school if you have no other source of contribution. I think if you can get out of HYS with debt in the low 100s, you can justify the decision. That may be the "average" debt at graduation, but who knows how feasible, or what the median is. Of course, you're choice is only as good as your next best option, and with a Ruby on the table...

I actually revisited this thread because I just received my financial aid package from Yale (details are quoted above). Do these numbers influence anyone's thoughts?

[Cicero76]

For what it's worth, I regret choosing YLS over the Hamilton at Columbia all the time. I acknowledge that I have done well in large part due to professor connections and other opportunities at YLS (I have two clerkships in very competitive courts). But I was very unhappy at YLS and I resent the albatross of debt.

Having been out of school for a few years, I now think that a lot of the YLS advantage is self-perpetuating. People at YLS are extremely ambitious, talented and successful. They would still be ambitious, talented and successful somewhere else. The Hamilton scholars I know have all done very well and are clerking on the same courts I am and practicing in the same fields that I am interested in. I have no way of knowing if I would have done as well professionally at Columbia as I did at Yale, but I am fairly certain that I would have been much happier.

If you have these choices, you will do well wherever you go. Try to make a decision based on more than theoretical advantages for unicorn job opportunities. Learn more about the culture of the schools, the curriculum, what it is really like to be a student there. YLS is a great law school, but it is not right for everyone.

Amen. Can't tell you how many times I hear students who went to Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, etc. say that they wish they had taken the full scholarship at a slightly lower ranked school. We aren't talking T3 to T20 or something. The Harvard guy I know had a pretty much full scholarship at Columbia that he passed up, and the Stanford guy could have gone to Berkeley for close to free. Plus I know a guy who passed up a full scholarship to Cornell to go to Columbia at sticker. Despite their awesome job outcomes, all 3 have indicated that they wish they took the debt-free/low debt route.

And I know literally zero of my classmates with this opinion, though there probably are some. Anecdata ftw

[aboutmydaylight]

I don't understand why anyone who wants to go into PI would be willing to take on debt.

From the Yale website: "In 2014-2015, students will be expected, depending on the class year, to meet the first $41,100, $42,100 or $43,100 of their need with loans."

That means even if the rest of your COA is covered by a need-based grant, you're still looking at around $130k in loans!!!

Sure, you can rely on LIPP/LRAP/COAP or whatever. The downfall of relying on this has been highlighted in other threads on here. Take the Ruby, a less prestigious post-grad position, and live debt free.

I'm in a similar position here, minus Yale but plus Stanford, so feel free to PM me.

$130k in debt from Yale is pretty good. You can also look at average debt at graduation for those that took out a loan and for last year, Yale was at $112k. That will increase, but its still manageable.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... ngs/page+4

I mean half tuition schollys now a days might cover 80k

I wanted to return to this topic with some numbers, having received my financial aid from Yale. They are giving me about $13,000 a year, but also expecting my parents to contribute $16,000 per year (which is a hardship on them). I'll take on about $54,000 in debt per year - and perhaps more if my family is unable/unwilling to contribute.

Chicago is debt-free, allowing me to graduate with about $20,000 in savings.

With these figures, does this change anyone's opinion?

over 3 years? That effectively puts you at 140k-160k of debt at graduation depending on school if you have no other source of contribution. I think if you can get out of HYS with debt in the low 100s, you can justify the decision. That may be the "average" debt at graduation, but who knows how feasible, or what the median is. Of course, you're choice is only as good as your next best option, and with a Ruby on the table...

I actually revisited this thread because I just received my financial aid package from Yale (details are quoted above). Do these numbers influence anyone's thoughts?

So how much are your parents actually going to contribute? Do you have savings to contribute as well? Just because Yale says they're going to contribute 16k doesn't mean they're capable of it (which you alluded to). Yale's budget is 76k. If they give you 13k and your parents actually contribute 16k, that means 47k a year in loans. They probably won't give you any need based aid your 3rd year if you get a SA position (?) and remember, interest accrues on loans WHILE you're still in school. Best case scenario you're looking around 165k in debt by the time you start paying them off. Around 237k over the life of the loan. That's about 2k per month on a 10 year plan. Is Yale worth that much to you?

[pedestrian]

COAP is actually pretty complicated, beyond the tapering subsidies as your income climbs north of $60,000. In calculating your income you are allowed to make several deductions for things like children, house payments, retirement savings, and maybe some other major life expenses. On top of that, there is also a sort of "bonus" deduction that increases each year and is meant to take into account the fact that your expenses grow as you journey deeper into adulthood. They don't want you to emerge 10 years later with your debt paid off and/or forgiven, but still living on a shoestring.

The net result is that even if you are making 100k + in six years, you will probably still be getting help from COAP. Spousal income complicates that too, as you suggest - although it is not simply added to your income, it is similarly tiered in with no penalty if your spouse makes below a certain floor.

Takeaway: talk to Asha and Jill Stone before making a decision and go to ASW. Try to get a more complete understanding of what it would be like to work at State on COAP. Lots of Yalies do what you are hoping to do, so I'm sure that they could also set you up with an alum.

On that point, a final benefit of Yale beyond the initial boost in your odds of landing an exclusive government job is the alumni network. So many Yalies are in DOJ, State, etc. that you will have a much easier time networking and moving around throughout your career. Even if you don't get your top pick, one of your classmates probably will and might be able to help you at some point in the future.

If your goal is to minimize cost, for sure got to Chicago. If you want to maximize your opportunity, I'd vote Yale.

[jbagelboy]

For what it's worth, I regret choosing YLS over the Hamilton at Columbia all the time. I acknowledge that I have done well in large part due to professor connections and other opportunities at YLS (I have two clerkships in very competitive courts). But I was very unhappy at YLS and I resent the albatross of debt.

Having been out of school for a few years, I now think that a lot of the YLS advantage is self-perpetuating. People at YLS are extremely ambitious, talented and successful. They would still be ambitious, talented and successful somewhere else. The Hamilton scholars I know have all done very well and are clerking on the same courts I am and practicing in the same fields that I am interested in. I have no way of knowing if I would have done as well professionally at Columbia as I did at Yale, but I am fairly certain that I would have been much happier.

If you have these choices, you will do well wherever you go. Try to make a decision based on more than theoretical advantages for unicorn job opportunities. Learn more about the culture of the schools, the curriculum, what it is really like to be a student there. YLS is a great law school, but it is not right for everyone.

Amen. Can't tell you how many times I hear students who went to Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, etc. say that they wish they had taken the full scholarship at a slightly lower ranked school. We aren't talking T3 to T20 or something. The Harvard guy I know had a pretty much full scholarship at Columbia that he passed up, and the Stanford guy could have gone to Berkeley for close to free. Plus I know a guy who passed up a full scholarship to Cornell to go to Columbia at sticker. Despite their awesome job outcomes, all 3 have indicated that they wish they took the debt-free/low debt route.

And I know literally zero of my classmates with this opinion, though there probably are some. Anecdata ftw

1Ls have yet to taste their first debt payment. Still, the poster only said Harvard, Columbia, and Stanford students expressed regret. Maybe Yale truly is special. (Except for the Yale poster on the previous page and the many similarly situated others).

[kaiser]

For what it's worth, I regret choosing YLS over the Hamilton at Columbia all the time. I acknowledge that I have done well in large part due to professor connections and other opportunities at YLS (I have two clerkships in very competitive courts). But I was very unhappy at YLS and I resent the albatross of debt.

Having been out of school for a few years, I now think that a lot of the YLS advantage is self-perpetuating. People at YLS are extremely ambitious, talented and successful. They would still be ambitious, talented and successful somewhere else. The Hamilton scholars I know have all done very well and are clerking on the same courts I am and practicing in the same fields that I am interested in. I have no way of knowing if I would have done as well professionally at Columbia as I did at Yale, but I am fairly certain that I would have been much happier.

If you have these choices, you will do well wherever you go. Try to make a decision based on more than theoretical advantages for unicorn job opportunities. Learn more about the culture of the schools, the curriculum, what it is really like to be a student there. YLS is a great law school, but it is not right for everyone.

Amen. Can't tell you how many times I hear students who went to Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, etc. say that they wish they had taken the full scholarship at a slightly lower ranked school. We aren't talking T3 to T20 or something. The Harvard guy I know had a pretty much full scholarship at Columbia that he passed up, and the Stanford guy could have gone to Berkeley for close to free. Plus I know a guy who passed up a full scholarship to Cornell to go to Columbia at sticker. Despite their awesome job outcomes, all 3 have indicated that they wish they took the debt-free/low debt route.

And I know literally zero of my classmates with this opinion, though there probably are some. Anecdata ftw

And theres the key difference. I'm talking about colleagues, you are talking about classmates. The former are presently making large monthy debt payments, realizing they would have almost certainly gotten the same biglaw jobs had they just taken the scholarship. Of course, the people I mentioned didn't go to Yale, so perhaps that one school really is the exception to this sentiment

Edit: Just realized the post above mine said pretty much exactly the same thing

[Cicero76]

And theres the key difference. I'm talking about colleagues, you are talking about classmates. The former are presently making large monthy debt payments, realizing they would have almost certainly gotten the same biglaw jobs had they just taken the scholarship. Of course, the people I mentioned didn't go to Yale, so perhaps that one school really is the exception to this sentiment

Edit: Just realized the post above mine said pretty much exactly the same thing

Fair enough. I think there's a lurking variable though: law school in general just sucks. Even a full tuition scholly is gunna mean north of 50k debt, so it's all kind of a red herring.

[Blessedassurance]

I'm a 1L, chose HLS over Chi at 90k, with similar goals to OP, and haven't worried much about debt or the job market since, and know almost no one here who really has. I'm very happy with the decision. If I had been in the OP's position, I would've gone to Yale.

Lol. Wait until you graduate and start making loan payments.

So much this.

I've done the math (yes, at sticker, no, my parents aren't helping), and I think I'll be fine.

no you won't. and for your sake i hope you enjoy biglaw or whatever. do you even realize how much you have to pay back to get back to zero net worth?

[Blessedassurance]

As a counter this, my choice was HYS vs full-scholarship (plus stipend in a number of cases) at most of the non-HYS top 10. While I don't necessarily regret choosing H (I have the a very good job offer in my field) I do wonder if it was worth it in incremental terms as I make my budget for after graduation. I have the maximum aid you can get at HLS while doing a 2L SA and that still results in 5 years of ~$2500/month loan payments, 5 years of delaying a home or having children and 5 years without the freedom that should be associated with my income level.

are you a 2l? if so, expect the earnings from your 2L SA to count negatively against your grant. you will lose at least ~10 grand for that third year, if you are getting the maximum grant. this is one aspect that is often neglected.

[AspiringAcademic]

And theres the key difference. I'm talking about colleagues, you are talking about classmates. The former are presently making large monthy debt payments, realizing they would have almost certainly gotten the same biglaw jobs had they just taken the scholarship. Of course, the people I mentioned didn't go to Yale, so perhaps that one school really is the exception to this sentiment

Edit: Just realized the post above mine said pretty much exactly the same thing

Fair enough. I think there's a lurking variable though: law school in general just sucks. Even a full tuition scholly is gunna mean north of 50k debt, so it's all kind of a red herring.

Not necessarily. Ruby is 15k a year stipend. Assuming 25k a year COA (outside of tuition):

-75k (room, board, etc) +45k (stipend) + 5k(1L summer guaranteed PI money) + 30k (2L firm (3x10weeks))= +5k

This is glossing over taxes etc, but you're pretty close to cost-neutral. Given a little parental support or savings, you could coast through without taking out a dime.

[kaiser]

no you won't. and for your sake i hope you enjoy biglaw or whatever. do you even realize how much you have to pay back to get back to zero net worth?

I certainly hope biglaw isn't his goal if he took HLS over CLS at 90K. That is literally 90K completely wasted if biglaw is the goal.

[TigerDude]

These decisions are a lot easier to make in theory. Harder when presented with actual Stanford, Harvard, and (wow, unicorns exist!) Yale acceptances.

[cotiger]

These decisions are a lot easier to make in theory. Harder when presented with actual Stanford, Harvard, and (wow, unicorns exist!) Yale acceptances.

... Really? I find it pretty easy to say no to sticker.

[michlaw]

Fair enough. I think there's a lurking variable though: law school in general just sucks.

Best post ever. Like lipstick on a pig.

[cotiger]

Types of people I think it makes sense to take YHS for:

-Parents/family helping you out in a big way.

-Super softs, low-ish numbers person who gets YHS acceptance but limited money elsewhere (so not applicable to Ruby people)

-If you have a specific unicorn-y job in mind and have experience that will actually give you a decent chance at getting that job

-Coming from a very low income family and so get big grants (though I'd still probably say go to T14 full-ride if that option is available)

That's really it.

[kaiser]

Types of people I think it makes sense to take YHS for:

-Parents/family helping you out in a big way.

-Super softs, low-ish numbers person who gets YHS acceptance but limited money elsewhere (so not applicable to Ruby people)

-If you have a specific unicorn-y job in mind and have experience that will actually give you a decent chance at getting that job

-Coming from a very low income family and so get big grants (though I'd still probably say go to T14 full-ride if that option is available)

That's really it.

I agree with this entirely. Shouldn't just choose HYS at sticker because you were starstruck by the name, and pushed rationality aside as a result. There are very few reasons or circumstances that would genuinely make HYS at sticker a better choice than CCN with a ton of money, and I think the above encompasses most of them.

I tend to think of law school like any other product. I go to the store because I need something, not because I think it could perhaps be useful in the future. I'm not going to spend a bunch more for something I don't need, and may very well never even use. Thats why the whole "I want to keep lots of doors open" argument seems a bit silly to me, especially when compared to the six figures of debt it will take to keep those extra doors open.