Yale vs. Ruby at Chicago vs. Harvard Forum

[patogordo]

You read more impurity in my motives than is warranted. He might be one of the folks for whom Yale over $$$ *might* be warranted (I don't have enough info to be sure) it sounds like. I was just curious. Only if he had said "oh y'know just going back to my V10 like normal" would I laugh.

Nelson--most clerkships aren't worth a quarter-million dollars. There are plenty of people who could clerk and don't because they won't pay even the $50k-ish (after-tax and clerkship bonus) penalty it costs to clerk. I think your statements indicate that you haven't thought seriously about these choices.

Yes, clerkships have no benefits besides the $50k bonus after leaving for a firm, Jesus Christ. Clearly, that is the only reason they are so highly sought after.

that's not what he's referring to when he says $50k-ish, genius

Whatever, misread it, sue me.

i will, and i'll win because i went to yale.

[stillwater]

Whatever, misread it, sue me.

i will, and i'll win because i went to yale.

burn

[star fox]

Both are great options, congrats. Go with what's more important to you. I would take the money and avoid debt. But I guess money's not everything.

[ph14]

This has been debated time and time again on TLS (and similar questions). In the end, it's a personal decision and there isn't an objectively right or wrong answer. The pros and cons are relatively straightforward, you just have to make the decision that is best for you.

[Emma.]

We might be an outlier, but there's absolutely no difference between the way Yale and UChicago applications are treated in my (feeder) judge's chambers.

[ph14]

We might be an outlier, but there's absolutely no difference between the way Yale and UChicago applications are treated in my (feeder) judge's chambers.

Yeah but i'm not sure that's the right comparison. That's comparing the top of the Yale class with the top of Chicago's class. I'm not sure anyone is really arguing about that. It's more an argument about, from the position of 0L with no information about how they will do in law school, the value of money (and likely debt) versus increased probability of desired outcome.

[Nelson]

We might be an outlier, but there's absolutely no difference between the way Yale and UChicago applications are treated in my (feeder) judge's chambers.

I agree with you that the full ride is preferable, but you do see the problem with your sample right?

[Emma.]

We might be an outlier, but there's absolutely no difference between the way Yale and UChicago applications are treated in my (feeder) judge's chambers.

I agree with you that the full ride is preferable, but you do see the problem with your sample right?

Meh. My point is based entirely on my small sample size. All I want to do is dispell the idea that Yale necessarily opens all these doors that UChicago won't. I'm lucky enough doing what may be one of the more preftigious things you can do out of law school, and going to UChi made no difference to my chances. My judge is not connected with Chi in any way, FWIW.

[bjsesq]

We might be an outlier, but there's absolutely no difference between the way Yale and UChicago applications are treated in my (feeder) judge's chambers.

I agree with you that the full ride is preferable, but you do see the problem with your sample right?

Meh. My point is based entirely on my small sample size. All I want to do is dispell the idea that Yale necessarily opens all these doors that UChicago won't. I'm lucky enough doing what may be one of the more preftigious things you can do out of law school, and going to UChi made no difference to my chances. My judge is not connected with Chi in any way, FWIW.

EMMA, HAI. HAI EMMA.

[Emma.]

We might be an outlier, but there's absolutely no difference between the way Yale and UChicago applications are treated in my (feeder) judge's chambers.

I agree with you that the full ride is preferable, but you do see the problem with your sample right?

Meh. My point is based entirely on my small sample size. All I want to do is dispell the idea that Yale necessarily opens all these doors that UChicago won't. I'm lucky enough doing what may be one of the more preftigious things you can do out of law school, and going to UChi made no difference to my chances. My judge is not connected with Chi in any way, FWIW.

EMMA, HAI. HAI EMMA.

Oh HAI!!!

[bjsesq]

I was hoping all is well with you, and I see it is. Happy for you, buddy.

[Emma.]

I was hoping all is well with you, and I see it is. Happy for you, buddy.

Yeah, not too bad. My judge is awesome. Dunno what I want to do next though, might just do another clerkship... How are things with you?

[bjsesq]

I was hoping all is well with you, and I see it is. Happy for you, buddy.

Yeah, not too bad. My judge is awesome. Dunno what I want to do next though, might just do another clerkship... How are things with you?

Pretty bad after the Winston debacle. Couldn't find a damn job after graduation until this past week. Now at a non-profit and looking like I may part-time adjunct at my UG. It took a while, but I got somewhere.

[Emma.]

I was hoping all is well with you, and I see it is. Happy for you, buddy.

Yeah, not too bad. My judge is awesome. Dunno what I want to do next though, might just do another clerkship... How are things with you?

Pretty bad after the Winston debacle. Couldn't find a damn job after graduation until this past week. Now at a non-profit and looking like I may part-time adjunct at my UG. It took a while, but I got somewhere.

Fuck Winston. Glad you've got something figured out. Teaching should be fun.

[Ohiobumpkin]

Assuming minimal undergraduate debt (less than $20k-30k), I vote Yale. You seem dead set on the hardest non-firm related jobs and there is no better place than Yale for that.

[Pulsar]

Whatever, misread it, sue me.

Tempting, but you're probably judgment proof .

[KatyMarie]

I'm going to throw a little 0L optimism on this thread. The great thing about this decision is that you can't really make a bad decision! You have three really great options that so many folks out there would love to have. I think at this point, it's okay to think about some softer factors here, like where you want to live for 3 years, what grading situation do you like better, which city would you rather have access to while you live there etc etc.

If I were you, I'd take Ruby at Chicago just because the freedom of being debt-free after graduating from a great law school sounds awesome! But you have to do what's going to make you happy, and these are three really great choices!

[abl]

abl, how much does Y stand out vs H and S for your judges? Is it just a reputation thing?

From what I saw, Y didn't stand out vs H and S for either of my judges.*


*The one caveat to this is that Y has no curve and therefore Y students tend to have substantially prettier transcripts. My judges are both aware of this, and took this into account when evaluating candidates, but my sense is that there was still some value in the inflated Y grades (somewhat similar to NW -- all things being equal, it feels better to take someone with a 4.05 GPA from NW over a 3.75 from UVA, even if both students are in equivalent places** in their respective classes and come from peer schools).

**I made up those numbers, but you get the point.

[abl]

To add to my previous post, we got far more H applications than S or Y -- it felt like well more than 3x as many (I didn't count so that might be my imagination). I'm not sure why that's the case. Neither judge worked in a district/circuit that you would think would attract a particularly large number of H students (over Y/S). In any event, the Y/S applicants consistently stood out with respect to the H applicants and I think probably got a slight boost for this reason (scarcity). Is it logical? Nope. Did either of my judges actually prefer Y/S to H? Nope.

So to amend what I said previously, for all of the above illogical reasons, I'd say that Y students probably were looked on most favorably, followed very closely by S, and followed a little less closely by H. And there was a fairly big jump between HYS and other schools -- we gave just about every HYS applicant we received some consideration, whereas we tossed just about any applicant who fell outside of the top 15-25% or so from any other school without looking more deeply at their application. So someone who I would have guessed fell right around the top 1/3 cutoff at S would potentially be sent to the judge as part of our shortlist (assuming an incredible resume) whereas that exact same person from Columbia would not have been.

It's also worth adding to the above that in my experience looking through thousands of clerkship applications, HYS students (especially Y/S) tend to have more interesting resumes as well -- so our rough rule of thumb was not just a matter of prestige-consciousness, but I think was actually a decent efficiency tool. Put another way, in my experience, looking deeply at a Y application usually yielded some pretty impressive and fascinating things. Looking deeply at a Georgetown app usually did not.

[worldtraveler]

Doesn't Harvard have 3x as many students as Y/S? That would probably explain the difference in the number of applicants.

[heartbreaker]

For what it's worth, I regret choosing YLS over the Hamilton at Columbia all the time. I acknowledge that I have done well in large part due to professor connections and other opportunities at YLS (I have two clerkships in very competitive courts). But I was very unhappy at YLS and I resent the albatross of debt.

Having been out of school for a few years, I now think that a lot of the YLS advantage is self-perpetuating. People at YLS are extremely ambitious, talented and successful. They would still be ambitious, talented and successful somewhere else. The Hamilton scholars I know have all done very well and are clerking on the same courts I am and practicing in the same fields that I am interested in. I have no way of knowing if I would have done as well professionally at Columbia as I did at Yale, but I am fairly certain that I would have been much happier.

If you have these choices, you will do well wherever you go. Try to make a decision based on more than theoretical advantages for unicorn job opportunities. Learn more about the culture of the schools, the curriculum, what it is really like to be a student there. YLS is a great law school, but it is not right for everyone.

[t-14orbust]

For what it's worth, I regret choosing YLS over the Hamilton at Columbia all the time. I acknowledge that I have done well in large part due to professor connections and other opportunities at YLS (I have two clerkships in very competitive courts). But I was very unhappy at YLS and I resent the albatross of debt.

Having been out of school for a few years, I now think that a lot of the YLS advantage is self-perpetuating. People at YLS are extremely ambitious, talented and successful. They would still be ambitious, talented and successful somewhere else. The Hamilton scholars I know have all done very well and are clerking on the same courts I am and practicing in the same fields that I am interested in. I have no way of knowing if I would have done as well professionally at Columbia as I did at Yale, but I am fairly certain that I would have been much happier.

If you have these choices, you will do well wherever you go. Try to make a decision based on more than theoretical advantages for unicorn job opportunities. Learn more about the culture of the schools, the curriculum, what it is really like to be a student there. YLS is a great law school, but it is not right for everyone.

Clearly passed on the kool-aid

[NYstate]

For what it's worth, I regret choosing YLS over the Hamilton at Columbia all the time. I acknowledge that I have done well in large part due to professor connections and other opportunities at YLS (I have two clerkships in very competitive courts). But I was very unhappy at YLS and I resent the albatross of debt.

Having been out of school for a few years, I now think that a lot of the YLS advantage is self-perpetuating. People at YLS are extremely ambitious, talented and successful. They would still be ambitious, talented and successful somewhere else. The Hamilton scholars I know have all done very well and are clerking on the same courts I am and practicing in the same fields that I am interested in. I have no way of knowing if I would have done as well professionally at Columbia as I did at Yale, but I am fairly certain that I would have been much happier.

If you have these choices, you will do well wherever you go. Try to make a decision based on more than theoretical advantages for unicorn job opportunities. Learn more about the culture of the schools, the curriculum, what it is really like to be a student there. YLS is a great law school, but it is not right for everyone.

Great advice.

[dobryden]

I wanted to return to this topic with some numbers, having received my financial aid from Yale. They are giving me about $13,000 a year, but also expecting my parents to contribute $16,000 per year (which is a hardship on them). I'll take on about $54,000 in debt per year - and perhaps more if my family is unable/unwilling to contribute.

Chicago is debt-free, allowing me to graduate with about $20,000 in savings.

With these figures, does this change anyone's opinion?

[patogordo]

i would suggest using $50k on therapy to learn to cope with the lack of a yale degree and then pocket the difference.