Columbia for non-NYC markets?

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Cucumber
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Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby Cucumber » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:52 pm

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Last edited by Cucumber on Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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phillywc
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby phillywc » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:14 pm

Columbia can get every one of those markets, but the lack of ties/institutional support might make it difficult. If you end up getting money from Penn and don't mind Philly Big Law, that would work well I think.

Curious to hear what others have to say about this one.

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smaug_
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby smaug_ » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:20 pm

First, you might get some need based aid from CLS. It is a real thing that actually happens.

Second, it'll be tough to get any of those markets without ties. I think that you might be OK if you do UT->Texas biglaw, but otherwise, I'm not sure that it would be significantly easier to crack those markets from UVA.

You should talk to admissions and ask if you can talk to someone at the regional societies at CLS. I know there's a Midwest Society. I think there's a Texas one as well. They'll know better than anyone else what it's like trying to work in secondary markets.

The more depressing answer is that you might have to consider working in New York if you don't have ties to a major market. Being OK with working in NYC is part of the package with most T14 schools. It's where the jobs are. This is increasingly true as firms in secondary markets take in laterals and decrease summer class sizes.

daleearnhardt123
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby daleearnhardt123 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:33 pm

You might be able to leverage that 10k/year at Michigan into 10k/year at UVA. That's probably worth a shot. 10k/year at UVA would probably make your COA at UVA some 80k lower than COA at Columbia.

UVA probably does as good or better than CLS at 3 of your 4 listed target markets (DC, Atlanta, Texas) so spending 80k less in total for that would seem to be a no-brainer. As any good advisor will tell you, though, unless you do pretty well during 1L you are going to have to look at NYC for safety purposes. And in NYC, CLS naturally crushes UVA and every other school you listed.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:57 pm

If you want biglaw, unless you are from LA or Chicago or Houston or something and have worked there, you are talking about New York firms. Without real ties, you should either go to a T14 expecting to bid nyc, or a non-T14 without the expectation of biglaw.

If you managed to do really well - like top third or something at a T14 - you might not have to bid as conservatively. Ive heard of people lining up 1L PI or gov gigs in a new-ish market, and then using those as "ties" at OCI to make it more legit. People from CLS do get to new markets, but its not very frequent because normally people who come here either want to go home, or stay in new york.

Depending on where you are in the "midwest", could serve as sufficient ties to Chicago or something.

If you land below median after 1L at CLS or any other school, best to bid all NYC or risk striking out of biglaw altogether. So as another poster said, best thing to do would be accept the strong possibility of new york firm work, but fight for alternatives in the meantime.

Since you're not instate, i would choose columbia over michigan or uva w/ $10K-yr. Worth the difference. See what you can negotiate with all the schools and wait on your CLS package, come back with full info

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:27 pm

None of those schools are worth the listed prices if you aren't willing to bid on NYC firms. About 35-40% of biglaw positions are in NYC, so if you remove that market from the equation the non-HYS T14 all place like non-T14's. And no school outside the T14 is worth 200k+

daleearnhardt123
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby daleearnhardt123 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:36 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:None of those schools are worth the listed prices if you aren't willing to bid on NYC firms. About 35-40% of biglaw positions are in NYC, so if you remove that market from the equation the non-HYS T14 all place like non-T14's. And no school outside the T14 is worth 200k+


Come on that's a gross exaggeration. UVA places more in DC than it does in NY. I'd imagine something similar is true for Chicago regarding Midwest placement v. NY.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:49 pm

daleearnhardt123 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:None of those schools are worth the listed prices if you aren't willing to bid on NYC firms. About 35-40% of biglaw positions are in NYC, so if you remove that market from the equation the non-HYS T14 all place like non-T14's. And no school outside the T14 is worth 200k+


Come on that's a gross exaggeration. UVA places more in DC than it does in NY. I'd imagine something similar is true for Chicago regarding Midwest placement v. NY.

UVA placed 14% of its class into New York. Only 62% of the class got Biglaw or Federal Clerkships. Removing New York takes a big bite out of what is already pretty dicey placement for that price. By comparison, Vandy/Texas/USC/UCLA put 35-40% of the class of 2012 into biglaw/fed clerkship. So sure it's a little better than a non-T14 but not by a whole lot.

You might have a better argument for Chicago because they have such a strong home market, but even they sent 17% of the class to NYC and of course OP didn't get into Chicago.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:51 pm

daleearnhardt123 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:None of those schools are worth the listed prices if you aren't willing to bid on NYC firms. About 35-40% of biglaw positions are in NYC, so if you remove that market from the equation the non-HYS T14 all place like non-T14's. And no school outside the T14 is worth 200k+


Come on that's a gross exaggeration. UVA places more in DC than it does in NY. I'd imagine something similar is true for Chicago regarding Midwest placement v. NY.


UVA places more fellowships in DC maybe, but certainly not large private firms.. Like 15% of UVA goes to temporary FT school funded positions, most of which are probably located around the capital

ansteam
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby ansteam » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:30 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
daleearnhardt123 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:None of those schools are worth the listed prices if you aren't willing to bid on NYC firms. About 35-40% of biglaw positions are in NYC, so if you remove that market from the equation the non-HYS T14 all place like non-T14's. And no school outside the T14 is worth 200k+


Come on that's a gross exaggeration. UVA places more in DC than it does in NY. I'd imagine something similar is true for Chicago regarding Midwest placement v. NY.


UVA places more fellowships in DC maybe, but certainly not large private firms.. Like 15% of UVA goes to temporary FT school funded positions, most of which are probably located around the capital


For Classes 2010-12, UVA placed 157 in DC firms, compared to 141 for NY firms: http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/career_map.htm. It's possible that some of those DC firms weren't large firms, maybe, but their placement in DC seems pretty good.

BigZuck
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:38 pm

smaug wrote:First, you might get some need based aid from CLS. It is a real thing that actually happens.

Second, it'll be tough to get any of those markets without ties. I think that you might be OK if you do UT->Texas biglaw, but otherwise, I'm not sure that it would be significantly easier to crack those markets from UVA.

You should talk to admissions and ask if you can talk to someone at the regional societies at CLS. I know there's a Midwest Society. I think there's a Texas one as well. They'll know better than anyone else what it's like trying to work in secondary markets.

The more depressing answer is that you might have to consider working in New York if you don't have ties to a major market. Being OK with working in NYC is part of the package with most T14 schools. It's where the jobs are. This is increasingly true as firms in secondary markets take in laterals and decrease summer class sizes.


I go to UT. I'm not from Texas but lived here for years before attending law school. I get grilled about ties during interviews for 1L summer jobs. I can't imagine what it would be like if I had never lived in TX before law school.

I wouldn't recommend anyone go to UT unless they have TX ties before law school.

OP- if you want big law, I think you need to be ok with working in NY or don't go to law school. The job market is tough enough and you'll be going into so much debt that when you inevitably end up a median bro at Columbia you don't want to strike out because you targeted a bunch of ties-sensative markets.

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L’Étranger
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby L’Étranger » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:00 pm

Strongly disagree with everyone's thinking above.

Unless you will have access to specialized job fairs as a law student (i.e. you are an IP person or a URM), at a T14 OCI will be your absolute best opportunity to land permanent legal employment.

Columbia, for example, is optimized for NY big law, because NY employers predominantly show up to their OCI. However, if employers from Chicago (or the other markets you want) show up to Columbia's OCI, then that's your chance to shine.

Think of ties as a soft rather than a necessity if you are otherwise an attractive candidate at OCI.

I would suggest contacting the OCS at the schools you were accepted too and ask them if employers from your choice markets come to their OCI.

If say 10 or more employers show up from those regions, then you should be fine.

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smaug_
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby smaug_ » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:05 pm

Yeah, but as someone who has gone through EIP at CLS, interviewed with firms from secondary markets there and done callbacks with some of those firms, I'm saying that ties are something that interviewers will push hard on.

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L’Étranger
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby L’Étranger » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:24 pm

smaug wrote:Yeah, but as someone who has gone through EIP at CLS, interviewed with firms from secondary markets there and done callbacks with some of those firms, I'm saying that ties are something that interviewers will push hard on.


Sure, ties will be asked about. I would expect that Chicago firms will want to know that you've at least been to Chicago and know what the weather is like there. I'm just saying I don't think they rise to the level of deal-breaker.

Do you feel like lack of ties alone kept you from getting offers?

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smaug_
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby smaug_ » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:27 pm

L’Étranger wrote:
smaug wrote:Yeah, but as someone who has gone through EIP at CLS, interviewed with firms from secondary markets there and done callbacks with some of those firms, I'm saying that ties are something that interviewers will push hard on.


Sure, ties will be asked about. I would expect that Chicago firms will want to know that you've at least been to Chicago and know what the weather is like there. I'm just saying I don't think they rise to the level of deal-breaker.

Do you feel like lack of ties alone kept you from getting offers?


I don't think it'll prevent anyone from getting offers on its own, but I think it hurts you significantly. There's a big difference between "will want to know that you've at least been to Chicago" and talking for 10 minutes about "why Chicago." My experiences are far closer to the latter than the former.

ETA: I think a big part of the push is that if you're not from the NE and choose to go to CLS/NYU, it kinda shows your hand in that you chose to go to law school in New York and are probably thinking about working in New York. I know people in my class going to WA, GA, CA, IL—all over the map. But, the vast majority have a fairly strong connection to that area, be it parents living in that state, undergrad in that state or a fiancée from that area.

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Crowing
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby Crowing » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:29 pm

Ties aren't really concrete; it's more about being able to deliver a compelling and believable story for why you want to be somewhere. From what I've seen and heard it's not too terribly difficult to convince Chicago firms that you want to be in Chicago when you're from a "small Midwestern city." Chicago is worried about people going to NY or maybe DC or California. Nobody in Chicago is the least bit concerned about you ditching them for Milwaukee or Indianapolis or Podunk, Missouri.

So with that being said--why isn't Northwestern an option?

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banjo
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby banjo » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:46 pm

I've gotten email responses from employers (not even firms) that are basically like, "Thanks for your interest. Do you have any ties to _______?" Ties really do make a difference--I wouldn't go into OCI bidding on markets to which you only have weak ties.

tiltedwindmill
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby tiltedwindmill » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:24 pm

banjo wrote:I've gotten email responses from employers (not even firms) that are basically like, "Thanks for your interest. Do you have any ties to _______?" Ties really do make a difference--I wouldn't go into OCI bidding on markets to which you only have weak ties.

This is a ridiculously naive question but what is stopping people from lying about ties (I.e. Family etc) when interviewing?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:57 pm

tiltedwindmill wrote:
banjo wrote:I've gotten email responses from employers (not even firms) that are basically like, "Thanks for your interest. Do you have any ties to _______?" Ties really do make a difference--I wouldn't go into OCI bidding on markets to which you only have weak ties.

This is a ridiculously naive question but what is stopping people from lying about ties (I.e. Family etc) when interviewing?


First, a halfway decent interviewer can tell when your bullshit by asking you a probing question or too.

Even if you did significant background research for your interview, jokes on you if you get the job and have to work there for 3-5 years keeping up the same charade.

Also firms will check your facebook, linkedin, other online presence ect and they can call your references. It would have to be a very extensive con, and again, it would just fuck you over when you summer there lol

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:25 pm

Can't speak to the Midwest but I think it would be a mistake to expect to break into any Southern legal market without ties. Atlanta and Texas in particular are very concerned about ties. This doesn't even address the question of grades - if you're median at Columbia or GULC without ties to Atlanta, no way that's happening.

ETA: the t14 outside of HYS is regional. In the south the pecking order is generally HYS > VD > UT/Vandy > state schools. CCNMPNG don't really enter into the equation.

BigZuck
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:56 pm

MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:Can't speak to the Midwest but I think it would be a mistake to expect to break into any Southern legal market without ties. Atlanta and Texas in particular are very concerned about ties. This doesn't even address the question of grades - if you're median at Columbia or GULC without ties to Atlanta, no way that's happening.

ETA: the t14 outside of HYS is regional. In the south the pecking order is generally HYS > VD > UT/Vandy > state schools. CCNMPNG don't really enter into the equation.


I think this is overstating things a bit. In Texas at least, I get the sense that a firm would gladly take a Georgetown kid (with ties) over a UT bro. Let alone a Columbia bro over a UT kid.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:55 pm

BigZuck wrote:
MyNameIsFlynn! wrote:Can't speak to the Midwest but I think it would be a mistake to expect to break into any Southern legal market without ties. Atlanta and Texas in particular are very concerned about ties. This doesn't even address the question of grades - if you're median at Columbia or GULC without ties to Atlanta, no way that's happening.

ETA: the t14 outside of HYS is regional. In the south the pecking order is generally HYS > VD > UT/Vandy > state schools. CCNMPNG don't really enter into the equation.


I think this is overstating things a bit. In Texas at least, I get the sense that a firm would gladly take a Georgetown kid (with ties) over a UT bro. Let alone a Columbia bro over a UT kid.


I think you and I are in agreement. No doubt T6 / 14 with ties will have an easier time. Not much help to OP though.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:02 pm

CLS to Chicago is rare. Don't know whether that's self-selection or what; but Kirkland-Chicago and Sidley-Chicago, the two most prominent offices in the city, don't even do OCI at CLS.

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2014
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby 2014 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:15 pm

What's your status with U.Chi? This is an obvious scenario where we are probably your optimal school, but if you are a high LSAT splitter a WL is probably imminent.


The goal is to go somewhere where you can pay off your debt. I think it's really tough to justify UVA or Michigan in your shoes because you are giving up double digit percentage points in job placement in exchange for $0-$30 grand + COA differences. That's nothing to scoff at, but also not enough to justify them over Columbia. I agree with whoever said Penn might be a good option, especially if U.Chi and NU are out of play for whatever reason.

Ultimately in your shoes I would do Columbia. I think it can carry you where you want to go, especially if you do well, but more importantly you are all but guaranteed a well paying job coming out of there which is priority #1.

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Nelson
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Re: Columbia for non-NYC markets?

Postby Nelson » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:28 pm

If you don't want NYC, pick your school based on secondary market that has the combination of the biggest legal market and your strongest ties. If the answer to that is Chicago, you need to go to Northwestern or UChi. Do not, for example, come to Penn and plan on bidding Philadelphia never having been to the city before law school. Ditto for UVA and some southern city. You're shooting yourself in the foot. Also, don't come to one of the Northeast corridor schools to go back to the midwest (Penn sends a half dozen people or less to Chicago each year, and I'd bet money they're all natives).

If your aversion to NYC is so strong that you wouldn't consider NYC firms under any circumstances, you probably shouldn't go to law school. Biglaw is so disproportionately concentrated in NYC that it's crazy to write it off.

On the other hand, you said
Cucumber wrote: I wouldn't mind living in NYC for 3 years, but I don't want to stay there.

So I really don't know what to tell you.




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