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publicinterest123
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Postby publicinterest123 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:46 pm

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Last edited by publicinterest123 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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twenty
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Re: PI: Michigan(105k) vs. Chicago(LRAP) vs. Boalt(?sticker)

Postby twenty » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:04 pm

Are you: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=120676

If so, you should probably stick to one account. ;)

publicinterest123 wrote:Michigan (35k per year)
--Offered a surprisingly large scholarship. Still kinda floored.
--Visited recently and it has a great vibe.
--total cost of living by far the lowest.
--Interesting clinics
--fairly large PI group

Chicago (sticker)
--Will not be receiving any money
--LRAP is the best because it ignores my wife's $$ entirely
--The student vibe of U Chicago sounds absolutely terrible. Whenever I "ask a student", all I hear is-- "the rumors are all true"
--small PI community with 6 Post-grad fellowships = high likelihood of getting one
--Best "rank" school
--Chicago is cold an clammy

Boalt (pretending I wont get anything...I know about the matching scholarships but reading the last few years of threads makes me not so optimistic)
--This is the area of the country that I intend to work in... so can get hooked up to resources early, extern, volunteer, etc.
--Best weather, and the city we would most like to live in for the next 3 years
--Largest PI resources
--Not sure if I will be eligible for the LRAP............


Biggest pros and cons to (imho) your second best choice, Michigan:
+ That's enough of a scholarship that, with your wife's support, you could feasibly graduate debt free.
+ Michigan is very solid for non-govt PI.
- Coming from a California guy, Ann Arbor is not going to be oodles of fun.
- While that's a big scholarship, it's perhaps not enough to justify blowing through your wife's earnings if you're going to do PAYE anyway.

Pros and cons to IMHO your best choice, Chicago:
+ UChicago's PI placement is on par with Harvard. If you're looking at a more prestigious PI field, Chicago for sure.
+ The LRAP is awesome, and if you're never making more than 80k, you'll never make a payment.
+ Even if the IBR goes away, their old LRAP is still awesome.
+ Chicago > Ann Arbor
- Hope you're committed to PI, because otherwise you'll be staring at -250k or at the very least, twenty years of payments and a tax bomb.
- Berkeley > Chicago

Pros and cons to IMHO your worst choice, Berkeley
+ Being in the area will help you a lot come PI job-finding-time. Depending on the type of PI work you want to do, this may overwhelm everything else (i.e, if you want a DAs office).
- Cost. See Chicago.
- Lack of LRAP.
- The PI resources are great, but less-great than Chicago.

Keep in mind that even if you're not eligible for LRAP at Berkeley, if you file separately, your PAYE payments should still be super low (i.e, <6k a year).

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worldtraveler
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Re: PI: Michigan(105k) vs. Chicago(LRAP) vs. Boalt(LRAP)

Postby worldtraveler » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:40 pm

What do you actually want to do? It is really difficult to say where to go without knowing that.

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Nelson
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Re: PI: Michigan(105k) vs. Chicago(LRAP) vs. Boalt(?sticker)

Postby Nelson » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:44 pm

twenty wrote:+ UChicago's PI placement is on par with Harvard. If you're looking at a more prestigious PI field, Chicago for sure.

Becoming a UChi troll as a 0L won't help you get in.

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twenty
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Re: PI: Michigan(105k) vs. Chicago(LRAP) vs. Boalt(LRAP)

Postby twenty » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:46 pm

Didn't apply to UChi this cycle, but thanks for your vote of confidence. :)

Here, let me help you insult me better. The reason I argue UChi's PI placement is up there with Harvard must be because I'm trying to get OP to bail on Berkeley, which is a school I did apply to (and haven't gotten in yet.)

WheninLaw
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Re: PI: Michigan(105k) vs. Chicago(LRAP) vs. Boalt(LRAP)

Postby WheninLaw » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:55 pm

publicinterest123 wrote:Hello everybody! This is my first post here and would really appreciate some feedback. I applied on opening day of the cycle, so have heard back from all of my schools.

I am 100% committed to PI, and my goal is to work in the Bay Area or Pacific northwest. I have read many threads on this forum challenging OP's who are committed to PI. I will ask that you simply trust me...I am 35 years old. I applied to law school entirely to pursue one avenue of law. This field is actually attainable (ie it is not international freedom fighting), but still incredibly incredibly competitive. It is not government. It will pay <50k per year forever.

Other than scholarships, I will be paying for school with loans and using LRAP.

Michigan (35k per year)
--Offered a surprisingly large scholarship. Still kinda floored.
--Visited recently and it has a great vibe.
--total cost of living by far the lowest.
--Interesting clinics
--fairly large PI group

Chicago (sticker)
--Will not be receiving any money
--LRAP is the best because it ignores my wife's $$ entirely
--The student vibe of U Chicago sounds absolutely terrible. Whenever I "ask a student", all I hear is-- "the rumors are all true"
--small PI community with 6 Post-grad fellowships = high likelihood of getting one
--Best "rank" school. Highest likelihood of clerking or post-grad PI fellow if I cant secure full time PI post grad
--Chicago is cold an clammy

Boalt (pretending I wont get anything...I know about the matching scholarships but reading the last few years of threads makes me not so optimistic)
--This is the area of the country that I intend to work in... so can get hooked up to resources early, extern, volunteer, etc.
--Best weather, and the city we would most like to live in for the next 3 years
--Largest PI resources
--May take spouse's income into consideration for LRAP


Thanks anonymous people! I am glad to join the forum frenzy.


My understanding is that scholarship information (at UoC) is not out yet, so unsure how you know that you will be paying sticker. It also strikes me as unlikely that you would receive $35K from Michigan and 0 from Chicago/Boalt considering: 1. Chicago would likely give you 10-20 based on Mich $$ and 2. Boalt's matching program. So yeah, I don't get it.

And what is with this "bad student vibe" thing? Everyone is happy, considering they are in law school. 0L rumors are really strange. The weather, though, absolutely sucks.

publicinterest123
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Joined: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:20 pm

Re: PI: Michigan(105k) vs. Chicago(LRAP) vs. Boalt(LRAP)

Postby publicinterest123 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:01 pm

Thanks for the input. For people voting boalt, is this due to location or PI focus of school? I presumed it would be last due to debt and ? Lrap
Regarding career goals, I hesitate from being more revealing because it is so specific. I do understand that it makes the question tougher to answer, so thanks for bearing with me.

Yes, the bad student vibe thing is probably overstated. I guess I should not buy into rumors, but current students PMed saying they feel it is cut throat. Do you feel like PI is well supported by admin at u chicago? Based on my numbers it is incredibly unlikely that I will receive any money from chicago, and if I do it would be tiny and not come close to reaching that mountain from mich

WheninLaw
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Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:35 pm

Re: PI: Michigan(105k) vs. Chicago(LRAP) vs. Boalt(LRAP)

Postby WheninLaw » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:08 pm

publicinterest123 wrote:Thanks for the input. For people voting boalt, is this due to location or PI focus of school? I presumed it would be last due to debt and ? Lrap
Regarding career goals, I hesitate from being more revealing because it is so specific. I do understand that it makes the question tougher to answer, so thanks for bearing with me.

Yes, the bad student vibe thing is probably overstated. I guess I should not buy into rumors, but current students PMed saying they feel it is cut throat. Do you feel like PI is well supported by admin at u chicago? Based on my numbers it is incredibly unlikely that I will receive any money from chicago


You are really doing yourself a disservice by putting out choices that are likely wrong. I had 15K/year at Michigan, and Chicago gave me 10k/year. With the Rubenstein $$ covering the top 20 students, Chicago throws a ton of cash at everyone. My guess is you will get at least 10, and maybe 20/year. Negotiate smart and this choice will be easier.

I'm not PI, so I can't speak to how well supported it is. The LRAP is insane, but I know people have chosen NYU over UoC because of more institutional PI support. I'd reach out to current students.

publicinterest123
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Re: PI: Michigan(105k) vs. Chicago(LRAP) vs. Boalt(LRAP)

Postby publicinterest123 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:19 pm

Thanks for your response. I will hold off on straining over this until I hear back from the last 2 re financial aid. Is there a way to cancel the survey?

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worldtraveler
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Re: Deleted

Postby worldtraveler » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:01 pm

No one is going to out you based on what your career goals are. I really don't understand the paranoia.

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dresden doll
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Re: Deleted

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:07 pm

I think people may be somewhat overestimating the importance of LRAP.

If you're planning on taking out 200k in order to work at a job that almost certainly won't pay you more than 60k to start with (in fact, it's unlikely to even pay 60k), your payments under IBR are likely to be zero, or close to it. Since LRAP merely picks up IBR payments, it's utterly needless if that's the case.

Additionally as time goes on, negative amortization is likely to kick in (i.e. your payments under IBR won't be sufficient to cover interest on your loans, thus causing you to owe more and more with each passing year until the 10 year clock brings you discharge). Thus, even if your initial IBR payments are over 0, they'll likely go down to 0 in a very short period of time.

Of course, this math changes if your scholarship is relatively substantial. But for those paying sticker, I would definitely advise to choose a school with excellent institutional support for PI-oriented students over a school with good LRAP (although the two typically go hand in hand).

In fact, if you're sure you want PI, prioritize school-funded PI fellowships over LRAP. You're relatively likely to need them at graduation.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Deleted

Postby worldtraveler » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:09 pm

dresden doll wrote:I think people may be somewhat overestimating the importance of LRAP.

If you're planning on taking out 200k in order to work at a job that almost certainly won't pay you more than 60k to start with (in fact, it's unlikely to even pay 60k), your payments under IBR are likely to be zero, or close to it. Since LRAP merely picks up IBR payments, it's utterly needless if that's the case.

Additionally as time goes on, negative amortization is likely to kick in (i.e. your payments under IBR won't be sufficient to cover interest on your loans, thus causing you to owe more and more with each passing year until the 10 year clock brings you discharge). Thus, even if your initial IBR payments are over 0, they'll likely go down to 0 in a very short period of time.

Of course, this math changes if your scholarship is relatively substantial. But for those paying sticker, I would definitely advise to choose a school with excellent institutional support for PI-oriented students over a school with good LRAP (although the two typically go hand in hand).

In fact, if you're sure you want PI, prioritize school-funded PI fellowships over LRAP. You're relatively likely to need them at graduation.



Yeah I would say that is by far the most important factor if you are absolutely sure you want PI. PI students should really be planning to graduate unemployed.

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twenty
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Re: Deleted

Postby twenty » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:18 pm

Additionally as time goes on, negative amortization is likely to kick in (i.e. your payments under IBR won't be sufficient to cover interest on your loans, thus causing you to owe more and more with each passing year until the 10 year clock brings you discharge). Thus, even if your initial IBR payments are over 0, they'll likely go down to 0 in a very short period of time.


This is very fascinating -- I was under the impression your payments were solely contingent on your salary. How do they decrease with negative amortization?

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dresden doll
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Re: Deleted

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:38 pm

twenty wrote:
Additionally as time goes on, negative amortization is likely to kick in (i.e. your payments under IBR won't be sufficient to cover interest on your loans, thus causing you to owe more and more with each passing year until the 10 year clock brings you discharge). Thus, even if your initial IBR payments are over 0, they'll likely go down to 0 in a very short period of time.


This is very fascinating -- I was under the impression your payments were solely contingent on your salary. How do they decrease with negative amortization?


Instead of risking mucking it all up for you with my own explanation, I'm copy/pasting from an IBR Guideline Document you can find at http://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/ ... -and-a.pdf.

The IBR monthly payment amount is based on your annual Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) and family
size. Specifically, the maximum annual amount you are required to repay under IBR during any period
when you have a “partial financial hardship” (as discussed in Q&A #4 above) is 15 percent of the
difference between your AGI and 150 percent of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
(HHS) Poverty Guideline amount for your family size and state. This annual repayment amount is then
divided by 12 to determine your monthly IBR repayment amount.

For example, 150 percent of the 2011 HHS poverty guideline amount for a family of three in the 48
contiguous states and the District of Columbia is $27,795. If your AGI was $40,000, the difference
would be $12,205. Fifteen percent of that is $1,831; dividing this amount by 12 results in a monthly IBR
payment amount of $153. As noted in Q&A #4 above, this compares with a monthly payment amount of
$518 under a 10-year Standard Repayment Plan (based on an eligible loan debt amount of $45,000).

If the calculated IBR payment amount using the formula described above is less than $5.00, the
monthly payment amount is zero. If the calculated payment is more than $5.00 but less than $10.00,
the monthly payment is $10.00.

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twenty
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Re: Deleted

Postby twenty » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:51 pm

I'm re-reading that over and over again and I feel dumb. :P I think I'm missing how negative amortization decreases your payments? I'm sure it's staring right at me.




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