Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

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ashley82929
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Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby ashley82929 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:40 pm

Case Total COA $66,000-40,000 scholarship=$26,000/yr vs OSU $46,500- $16,000= $30,500/yr

I will be paying pretty much entirely through loans. No help at all from family.
Born and raised in Northern Ohio, but went to undergrad and have family in Southeast Ohio and am really considering a move down there after LS. I am really interested in family and immigration law (although I don't think I will actually make any money at this in Ohio). My plan is to work at a firm for a few years in a city (Cleveland, Columbus) and then create a solo practice near my family.

I'm still in the running for a full scholarship at OSU but with a good possibility that I won't win it, I'm trying to figure out which is the best move. Cleveland and Columbus are both great cities and I could see myself living in either one. Does anyone know if a JD from Moritz is really considered much more valuable than one from Case? What about if I don't want to stay in the city where I study?

LSAT 164 / GPA 3.86

I was also accepted to Notre Dame, but haven't been offered any $$ yet.

Thanks for your opinions!
Last edited by ashley82929 on Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:45 pm

You definitely have to retake. 100Kish debt from both schools is way too much, especially since you want low paying legal work. Even if you want to go to one of these schools you need to bring the cost of attendance down.

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goldenflash19
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby goldenflash19 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:12 pm

Your best bet is to retake. I'm an Ohioan who had almost identical offers two years ago with similar numbers and retook to 170+. The Ohio market is so tough right now as shown by these schools' scores on LST. With that GPA, you could get into a T14 on a good scholarship that will both open up new markets and put you above the OSU and Case kids on the Ohio totem pole if you want to come back. An argument could be made for the Moritz Scholarship if you get it, but short of that, retaking is TCR. From a strict numbers standpoint, OSU is worth the 4k more per year than Case, though.

P.S. Go Browns! (No idea if you're a fan, just would be nice to know I'm not alone in my misery haha)

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ashley82929
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby ashley82929 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:18 pm

Thanks for the advice guys! Ive actually taken the LSAT twice already 163 first time, 164 second. Taking a year off could either be a really great idea or a really big waste of time for a 1 point increase so I'm a little hesitant to do that :/

I don't know if realistically I'd take out $100,000 in loans though. I'm pretty frugal plus summer jobs would cut down living expenses. In tuition I'd be paying about $5,000/year at Case and considering I'm from the area I know I could live cheap. With a roommate living in a reasonable apt (or living with family pretty far out and driving in) I don't see living expenses in CLE ever being the $17,000 a year Case suggests.

OSU would be $12,000/yr tuition plus living but idk the Columbus area well enough to know the realistic cost of living.

(ps: former browns fan lol! too many years of disappointment that I can't watch anymore haha)

BigZuck
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:24 pm

If you can keep the debt down that's great but I have found that I have borrowed more than I expected to (and sounds like that is generally the consensus). Also keep in mind that there is a good chance you won't get paid during the summers, or at least not much. It is almost impossible to get a paid 1L summer job (especially from these schools) and it can be tough 2L summer as well depending on what type of job it is. Also, interest accumulates on your loans from day one.

Of course all the debt stuff is a personal thing and you have a better sense of what you need to survive than we do. I was just assuming full loans for COL.

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goldenflash19
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby goldenflash19 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:35 pm

I can't speak about Columbus, but 17K per year is absurdly high for living in Cleveland. If you get a roommate and live relatively frugally, 12k is very feasible.

Have you thought about committing to a school and retaking in June? It'd be a lot easier to sit out the year with the score in hand, and you'd having nothing to lose.

Best of luck!

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ashley82929
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby ashley82929 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:43 pm

goldenflash19 wrote:I can't speak about Columbus, but 17K per year is absurdly high for living in Cleveland. If you get a roommate and live relatively frugally, 12k is very feasible.

Have you thought about committing to a school and retaking in June? It'd be a lot easier to sit out the year with the score in hand, and you'd having nothing to lose.

Best of luck!


That is an excellent idea. Never even crossed my mind. Thank you!

californiauser
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby californiauser » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:45 pm

Both give you a coin flip's chance of becoming a lawyer. I wouldn't go to Case under any circumstance. OSU MIGHT be worth it with a full ride if you max out all your retakes.

Good luck.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=oh

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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby rad lulz » Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:58 pm

k
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lawschool22
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby lawschool22 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:11 pm

Of the two the only one I would even consider is OSU. Have you tried negotiating that scholarship up?

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ashley82929
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby ashley82929 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:16 pm

I plan to, and am also filing for financial need and will hopefully get some from there. I don't know if it's better to try negotiating now or after the Moritz award decision.

The LST site is great, thanks for that. So clearly my top 2 options for employment in Ohio are OSU and Notre Dame, and I was accepted to both. Hopefully they offer more money.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:23 pm

Your top options for employment in Ohio are the T14. If you attend OSU or ND, it should only be for close to free.

Retake or don't go.

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lawschool22
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby lawschool22 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:46 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:Your top options for employment in Ohio are the T14. If you attend OSU or ND, it should only be for close to free.

Retake or don't go.


While a T14 will open more biglaw doors, this is somewhat misleading. There are plenty of regional firms in Ohio (Columbus specifically) that have starting classes comprised of 50%-75% OSU grads. The power of the OSU brand is very strong in Columbus, and alumni in this law firms love to hire OSU grads. I'm not saying it is easy, and you will need to graduate above median to end up at a quality firm. But as long as you are comfortable with the fact that you will most likely be practicing in Columbus and will most likely not be in biglaw (barring graduating at the top 10-15% or so) then OSU can make sense if you can get 50-75% scholarship money.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:23 pm

lawschool22 wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:Your top options for employment in Ohio are the T14. If you attend OSU or ND, it should only be for close to free.

Retake or don't go.


While a T14 will open more biglaw doors, this is somewhat misleading. There are plenty of regional firms in Ohio (Columbus specifically) that have starting classes comprised of 50%-75% OSU grads. The power of the OSU brand is very strong in Columbus, and alumni in this law firms love to hire OSU grads.


I am extremely skeptical that OSU has better placement in OH than a T14 grad with solid ties to the area, considering only 60% of OSU's class finds lawyer work anywhere. The fact that 50-75% of Ohio firms are comprised of OSU grads could just as easily speak to the options available to OSU grads or under-representation of OH students in T14 schools as much as to the preferences of OH firms. Can anybody with more knowledge of the OH market speak to this?

But as long as you are comfortable with the fact that you will most likely be practicing in Columbus and will most likely not be in biglaw (barring graduating at the top 10-15% or so) then OSU can make sense if you can get 50-75% scholarship money.


I agree with this.

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Lwoods
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby Lwoods » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:47 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
I am extremely skeptical that OSU has better placement in OH than a T14 grad with solid ties to the area, considering only 60% of OSU's class finds lawyer work anywhere. The fact that 50-75% of Ohio firms are comprised of OSU grads could just as easily speak to the options available to OSU grads or under-representation of OH students in T14 schools as much as to the preferences of OH firms. Can anybody with more knowledge of the OH market speak to this?


Hey now, finding and choosing are different things. 87% of the class of 2012 have either bar passage-required or JD-preferred positions. Perhaps for many people, a position that requires a license is always preferable to one that doesn't, but I think it's perfectly feasible that at least some of those individuals preferred jobs in compliance, HR, or consulting over small law. I don't know many of the c/o 2012, but I know there are a handful of individuals in both my class and the class of 2013 who came to law school wanting careers in JD-preferred fields. You can only read so much into any statistic.

Anyway, I think it's not uncommon for T14 students with Ohio ties to seek out summer positions in Ohio, and I suspect the big firms--at least in Columbus and Cleveland--like T14 students. It sounds like each of the big firms' summer classes tend to have at least one T14 student in the ranks (and the summer classes are small at satellite offices). But I also think good T14 students with Ohio ties become enamored with NY. I know of two who opted for positions in NY over Columbus.
Columbus midlaw doesn't like to take chances. They don't want to spend the money training an SA who's just going to leave. They like strong ties. I guess one firm got burned a couple years back when 2 of its 3 summers decided to take jobs in Cincinnati after graduation instead of staying in Columbus.
I definitely do not have any numbers to back this up, and I don't know if it's easier for any T14 student in Ohio than any OSU student, but going to a T14 will clearly open more doors overall.

However, if you know you want to work in Ohio, OSU is not a bad choice.

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ashley82929
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby ashley82929 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:13 pm

Ok thank you for all of the responses. To everyone saying Osu is fine as long as I'm not interested in big law--that is perfectly fine with me. Like I said in my post my ultimate goal is to create a solo practice in Southeast Ohio (a very poor area for people not from ohio) I'm not interested at all in big law. What does matter is a quality education and not graduating with a ton of debt. I don't see how a t-14 degree is absolutely necessary for my personal goals.

That being said, do you all think it would be worth the extra money to go to Osu (in the chance I don't get the full scholarship) instead of taking a nearly full ride at a school like Case?

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lawschool22
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby lawschool22 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:18 pm

ashley82929 wrote:Ok thank you for all of the responses. To everyone saying Osu is fine as long as I'm not interested in big law--that is perfectly fine with me. Like I said in my post my ultimate goal is to create a solo practice in Southeast Ohio (a very poor area for people not from ohio) I'm not interested at all in big law. What does matter is a quality education and not graduating with a ton of debt. I don't see how a t-14 degree is absolutely necessary for my personal goals.

That being said, do you all think it would be worth the extra money to go to Osu (in the chance I don't get the full scholarship) instead of taking a nearly full ride at a school like Case?


I know that it's tempting to say "I want a solo career, so I should minimize debt at all costs," but it's really difficult to start solo straight from law school. You really need to work for other attorneys first, to build your experience, network, etc., or else no one will want to hire you.

OSU gives you a better chance at this than Case, and at the current COA's you have posted, I think OSU is worth the extra money in this case. That's not to say your goal shouldn't be to minimize debt, however. This involves negotiating w/ OSU, living frugally while in school, etc.

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ashley82929
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby ashley82929 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:29 pm

lawschool22 wrote:
ashley82929 wrote:Ok thank you for all of the responses. To everyone saying Osu is fine as long as I'm not interested in big law--that is perfectly fine with me. Like I said in my post my ultimate goal is to create a solo practice in Southeast Ohio (a very poor area for people not from ohio) I'm not interested at all in big law. What does matter is a quality education and not graduating with a ton of debt. I don't see how a t-14 degree is absolutely necessary for my personal goals.

That being said, do you all think it would be worth the extra money to go to Osu (in the chance I don't get the full scholarship) instead of taking a nearly full ride at a school like Case?


I know that it's tempting to say "I want a solo career, so I should minimize debt at all costs," but it's really difficult to start solo straight from law school. You really need to work for other attorneys first, to build your experience, network, etc., or else no one will want to hire you.

OSU gives you a better chance at this than Case, and at the current COA's you have posted, I think OSU is worth the extra money in this case. That's not to say your goal shouldn't be to minimize debt, however. This involves negotiating w/ OSU, living frugally while in school, etc.


THANK YOU for actually answering my question. Yes, like I said above, initially my goal is to work with other attorneys for a few years and then go out on my own. The scholarship at Case is really tempting but like you said I'm worried I won't get a job when I first start out. From what I've been gathering it seems like OSU is the better choice...

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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby NYstate » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:56 pm

I think the reason T14 students don't go back to Ohio may be that they have much better opportunities in big market big law firms. The grads are self-selecting out of Ohio.

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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby lawschool22 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:28 pm

NYstate wrote:I think the reason T14 students don't go back to Ohio may be that they have much better opportunities in big market big law firms. The grads are self-selecting out of Ohio.


This is almost certainly true. No one is saying a t14 grad can't get a job at the Columbus/Cincy firms, just that due to the low number of T14 grads competing for those jobs, a person graduating from OSU will do pretty well in Ohio as long as they manage expectations and cost.

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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:40 pm

k
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ashley82929
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby ashley82929 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:49 pm

Yeah I know, I'm obviously not in it to make a ton of money. It's mostly to stay near family. there's actually a need for lawyers though, particularly family law which is what I'm interested in. Turns out lawyers never want to move to the area. Who would've guessed

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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:57 pm

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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby norkanite » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:10 pm

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ashley82929
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Re: Ohio State vs Case Western Reserve

Postby ashley82929 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:30 pm

norkanite wrote:If it's really between these two and you're absolutely sure about your plan, go tOSU. From what I've seen legal employers around Cleveland will always take buckeyes with ties over Case/CSU/Akron/ONU with ties, all else equal.

But I agree you should be cautious, and I'd encourage you to work for a solo in the Appalachian part of the state before diving in. I did for a couple years in college and it was hell.


This is really good advice. I've been networking with some attorneys down here and I plan to continue with that before I jump in. But if plans/circumstances change I want to know that my education will get me a job. Sounds like OSU is the best plan.

What part of SE Ohio did you work in?




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