Mn big law and what school will get me there

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azditamo
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Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby azditamo » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:15 am

As you can guess I am trying to practice in one of the big law firms here in Minnesota but I am trying to hedge my risk early. With that being said I have applied to all law schools here in Minnesota and I only heard back from hamline and I got a pretty decent scholarship from them with a 2.0 stipulation attached to it. I also saw that they are outperforming old standing rival william mitchell, I know past a certain rank it does not really mater about ranking so that really won't be a real factor. My question is for somebody like me who is looking to practice in this state with maybe the possibility of WL at the U, does it matter which one of the other schools I go to? In other words if I'm not willing to move and if I don't get into the U, should I go to the school that gives me more money with the mentally I have to work harder then the next person and I better make damn sure I'm top of my class to be competitive in the job market ( which I will do whatever school I go). I just want to be able to go to the second best option school if there is one aside from the U if I do not get into the U. Any advice is welcome, thank you.

UndecidedMN
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby UndecidedMN » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:25 am

PM me if you want details. First rule do not go to Hamline. Second rule, do not go to Hamline. Third rule, do not go to Hamline. You have to do some serious research on this forum site. What are your stats? MN big law is very hard to get into right now. There are 4 schools in MN and that is atleast 1 too many. There is a thread about MN Big Law, it will give you alot of information.

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lawhopeful10
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby lawhopeful10 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:42 am

Just also understand that working hard in law school is far from a guarantee of doing well, or finishing near the top of your class since almost everyone will likely be working just as hard. If you end up at a regional school make sure your debt level is low enough that if you strike out gunning for big law you aren't toast.

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Clearly
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby Clearly » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:44 am

Yeah, you're gonna wanna retake the LSAT.

skrzypce
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby skrzypce » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:53 am

Oy vey.

If your goal is "big law" in Minnesota, then under no circumstances should you ever consider going to Hamline. That would be a catastrophic mistake. You should know that the legal job market is shockingly saturated in the Twin Cities and any student who enters law school with the explicit intention of doing big law is probably delusional and setting himself up for misery. Even only a tiny, tiny percentage of the class at the U goes into what you might call "big law." The best option for you probably is to stop applying now and retake the LSAT.

By the way, the other poster is right. In my experience, hard work is not really the dispositive factor in putting you at the top of the curve. Quite a bit of luck, natural aptitude at law school exam taking, and very smart preparation are necessary. Everyone I know worked very hard to prepare for finals, but the grading system forces a curve and inevitably leaves a lot of people very disappointed. Everyone is "damn sure" they'll work harder than everyone else.

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Tanicius
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby Tanicius » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:58 am

You can even get perfect grades and still not be a shoe-in for Biglaw at any of the Minnesota firms. There are so few of them that many of the top kids at Hamline, Mitchell and St. Thomas still strike out, because if you secure five interviews, you're looking at 2-3 callbacks if you're lucky, and maybe one offer. Have a friend who's top 10 (students) in his class at Mitchell and he got interviews at all of the firms, but not a single offer.

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azditamo
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby azditamo » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:54 am

Does anybody have a link to that forum, I tried to look for it but could not find it. So it seems people are saying retake and try the U? But even if I do that the chances of me going to big law are slim, so how the hell do you do this? Also why is hamline so bad, please explain. People scream murder when you say hamline but never offer a good reason not to go. I know that a lot of people were saying that the market has too many lawyer and law schools but I figured with the trend of declining applications and some of the lawyers getting out of the practice that might be getting better. I am not really sure how to approach this now, is it the U or bust? A little more background on me I have people that went thourgh law school here some at the U, Wm and hamline they all kind of say the same thing and bad mouth the other school. All of them are not working for any big law firms so that in itself is not good information, but some of them make as much as an entering associate makes if not more in some rare cases. I just do not want to wait another year if push come to shove I rather go to WM and try to transfer out, if not their alumi association is good enough to the point where I can push myself on to a job off the strength of the name. Thank you for the advice.

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Nova
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby Nova » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:08 am

I go to the U and I wouldn't even recommend coming here if you want Minneapolis big law. Everyone here is smart and only 20% will have the opportunity to work in big law.


The other law schools are bad because of their terrible job prospects and low admission standards. its kind of a joke.
Last edited by Nova on Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NYstate
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby NYstate » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:21 am

azditamo wrote:Does anybody have a link to that forum, I tried to look for it but could not find it. So it seems people are saying retake and try the U? But even if I do that the chances of me going to big law are slim, so how the hell do you do this? Also why is hamline so bad, please explain. People scream murder when you say hamline but never offer a good reason not to go. I know that a lot of people were saying that the market has too many lawyer and law schools but I figured with the trend of declining applications and some of the lawyers getting out of the practice that might be getting better. I am not really sure how to approach this now, is it the U or bust? A little more background on me I have people that went thourgh law school here some at the U, Wm and hamline they all kind of say the same thing and bad mouth the other school. All of them are not working for any big law firms so that in itself is not good information, but some of them make as much as an entering associate makes if not more in some rare cases. I just do not want to wait another year if push come to shove I rather go to WM and try to transfer out, if not their alumi association is good enough to the point where I can push myself on to a job off the strength of the name. Thank you for the advice.


Minnesota big law is a tiny number of firms. You can't expect to get a job there. You not only have local competition you have students from T14 schools who are returning to the market.It is so unlikely it isn't realistic. The best school is probably Harvard or any other T6 school with local ties.

You can't assume that you will do well and transfer. Law school has a mandatory curve and you can't know how well you will do.

Look at law school transparency scores for Hamline

Do you want big law because you know about the work or is it just that you have seen the paycheck and decide you want that?

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Nova
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby Nova » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:23 am

If you need a tangible reason not to attend wm/ust/ham, look at LST. Way less than half the grads from those schools will ever practice law

Remember viewtopic.php?f=9&t=210672

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby TheSpanishMain » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:49 am

azditamo wrote:Also why is hamline so bad, please explain. People scream murder when you say hamline but never offer a good reason not to go.


The same reason almost all schools in that range are bad: a significant number of their graduates, often over half, will never actually get jobs as lawyers. I don't mean "will never get BigLaw jobs". I mean they'll never get any legal job of any kind.

What's your LSAT/GPA?

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UVAIce
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby UVAIce » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:31 am

It's not a problem with Hamline; it's a problem with all the schools in Minnesota right now. If your main, and only, real goal is MN big law then you should not attend a MN school. Maybe if you had no real ties to the state the U on a full-ride would be okay.

I had a 1L SA in the Twin Cities - I am originally from the Twin Cities - and over half of my SA class was from the T-14. Another complicating factor is that a lot of MN big law does a lot of lateral hiring. The firms would rather have small SA classes and then lateral hire any additional needs they have. And let's be honest, it's a buyers market out there.

Oh yeah, and Hamline is in some real financial trouble at the moment. I think Hamline's incoming class this year is well under 100 students. From what I understand Mitchell has been having similar issues just not as drastic.

Some people will give you terrible advice on the schools in the Twin Cities. I worked with a UST Law grad who thought that she made the right choice taking a full-ride to UST, because look at her now. I asked her about all her unemployed classmates and she acted as if that could never have happened to her (she was the no.1 student in her class). The problem is that you can really only act that cocky in hindsight. She could have easily flubbed one test in law school and not had a big law job.

tl;dr: DO NOT GO TO HAMLINE. DO NOT GO TO WM. DO NOT GO TO UST.

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azditamo
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby azditamo » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:02 am

Well this is discouraging, to know even the U is not a safe bet. My gpa is not good enough for any t14 schools and I knew that going in to this and I will save you the sob story of why it is not. However I thought doing well on the lsat would offset for the U at least. But with them not giving me a response yet I'm assuming I did not get in to that school. To answer some of your questions I wanted to get into big law not for the money as a sole reason while yes I'm human and that would be great but I want to learn the business from the best. So that one day I can do my own thing, the end goal is not partner it's to own my own firm and work for myself. I just want a legal education and work experience that will do that, I know that most tls want that big law partner experience I do not. I have worked for another person for awhile now and trust me it's bs. Why make somebody else rich and do a lot of work when you can do it yourself and it be more rewarding. With that being said I just want to get into a school where I can achieve this if it's not the U then the second best option and I know that is frowned upon by people here. But you have to understand I do not want to wait on the sideline for another year and be studying while dealing with cubical servitude. Also I'm not trying to belittle anybody's advice just let you now where I'm coming from.

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nothingtosee
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby nothingtosee » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:10 am

azditamo wrote:Well this is discouraging, to know even the U is not a safe bet. My gpa is not good enough for any t14 schools and I knew that going in to this and I will save you the sob story of why it is not. However I thought doing well on the lsat would offset for the U at least. But with them not giving me a response yet I'm assuming I did not get in to that school. To answer some of your questions I wanted to get into big law not for the money as a sole reason while yes I'm human and that would be great but I want to learn the business from the best. So that one day I can do my own thing, the end goal is not partner it's to own my own firm and work for myself. I just want a legal education and work experience that will do that, I know that most tls want that big law partner experience I do not. I have worked for another person for awhile now and trust me it's bs. Why make somebody else rich and do a lot of work when you can do it yourself and it be more rewarding. With that being said I just want to get into a school where I can achieve this if it's not the U then the second best option and I know that is frowned upon by people here. But you have to understand I do not want to wait on the sideline for another year and be studying while dealing with cubical servitude. Also I'm not trying to belittle anybody's advice just let you now where I'm coming from.


Study for one year --> Reap benefits for 40 years of career
Don't study for one year --> Have one fewer year AS A SERVANT

NYstate
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby NYstate » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:17 am

Biglaw practice isn't something you can do on your own. Maybe you should think about what other areas might interest you.

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stillwater
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby stillwater » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:29 am

azditamo wrote:Does anybody have a link to that forum, I tried to look for it but could not find it. So it seems people are saying retake and try the U? But even if I do that the chances of me going to big law are slim, so how the hell do you do this? Also why is hamline so bad, please explain. People scream murder when you say hamline but never offer a good reason not to go. I know that a lot of people were saying that the market has too many lawyer and law schools but I figured with the trend of declining applications and some of the lawyers getting out of the practice that might be getting better. I am not really sure how to approach this now, is it the U or bust? A little more background on me I have people that went thourgh law school here some at the U, Wm and hamline they all kind of say the same thing and bad mouth the other school. All of them are not working for any big law firms so that in itself is not good information, but some of them make as much as an entering associate makes if not more in some rare cases. I just do not want to wait another year if push come to shove I rather go to WM and try to transfer out, if not their alumi association is good enough to the point where I can push myself on to a job off the strength of the name. Thank you for the advice.


i dunno, maybe data? hamline students dont become lawyers.

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nothingtosee
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby nothingtosee » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:34 am

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=mn

Dig around this site, OP.
63% of UMN grads become lawyers
49% of Mitchell grads become lawyers
42% of UST grads become lawyers
41% of Hamline grads become lawyers

Not big law - we're talking small law.

How bad is your GPA? If it's under a 2.5...you may honestly be precluded from becoming an attorney. If we're talking a 2.8, study hard, hit that 170, go to NU or UVA, profit.

edit - Your writing/thinking quality is also a bit concerning, says random person on the internet. This won't help for law school exams.
edit 2 - Sentences like this: "In other words if I'm not willing to move and if I don't get into the U, should I go to the school that gives me more money with the mentally I have to work harder then the next person and I better make damn sure I'm top of my class to be competitive in the job market ( which I will do whatever school I go)."

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sublime
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby sublime » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:38 am

..

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azditamo
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby azditamo » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:40 am

nothingtosee wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=mn

Dig around this site, OP.
63% of UMN grads become lawyers
49% of Mitchell grads become lawyers
42% of UST grads become lawyers
41% of Hamline grads become lawyers

Not big law - we're talking small law.

How bad is your GPA? If it's under a 2.5...you may honestly be precluded from becoming an attorney. If we're talking a 2.8, study hard, hit that 170, go to NU or UVA, profit.

edit - Your writing/thinking quality is also a bit concerning, says random person on the internet. This won't help for law school exams.
edit 2 - Sentences like this: "In other words if I'm not willing to move and if I don't get into the U, should I go to the school that gives me more money with the mentally I have to work harder then the next person and I better make damn sure I'm top of my class to be competitive in the job market ( which I will do whatever school I go)."


I'm typing with my thumbs, give me a break.

tachikara
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby tachikara » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:45 am

NYstate wrote:Biglaw practice isn't something you can do on your own. Maybe you should think about what other areas might interest you.


Yeah, who goes to big law with the intention to "own my own firm and work for myself"? OP also doesn't want "that big law partner experience."

OP, if you want to hang your own shingle and work on small cases for individuals and small companies, big law would almost certainly be useless since your clients will be completely different.

If you have a dream of eventually founding your own big law firm, you will definitely not be able to do so without many years of successful "big law partner experience."

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby TheSpanishMain » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:48 am

azditamo wrote:
I'm typing with my thumbs, give me a break.


It's not an insult by any means, but in reviewing your post history it looks like English is not your first language. Your English is fine conversationally; it's perfectly clear what you mean. Your writing, though, is rough. Again, it's clear enough, but it's awkward. The ability to write clearly, fluently, and correctly is huge in law school.

Honestly, if your goal is to make a lot of money and work for yourself, there are many, many better ways to do this than law school. Maybe you should explore other options?

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sublime
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby sublime » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:49 am

..

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azditamo
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby azditamo » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:00 am

TheSpanishMain wrote:
azditamo wrote:
I'm typing with my thumbs, give me a break.


It's not an insult by any means, but in reviewing your post history it looks like English is not your first language. Your English is fine conversationally; it's perfectly clear what you mean. Your writing, though, is rough. Again, it's clear enough, but it's awkward. The ability to write clearly, fluently, and correctly is huge in law school.

Honestly, if your goal is to make a lot of money and work for yourself, there are many, many better ways to do this than law school. Maybe you should explore other options?


I know you are not try to insult me and no English is not my first language. While I do want to work for myself, the main reason why I want to go to law school is so that I can help people who were in the same situation I was. Who are either trying to come to this country or are trying to stay.

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sublime
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby sublime » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:04 am

..

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azditamo
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Re: Mn big law and what school will get me there

Postby azditamo » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:10 am

sublime wrote:
azditamo wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:
azditamo wrote:
I'm typing with my thumbs, give me a break.


It's not an insult by any means, but in reviewing your post history it looks like English is not your first language. Your English is fine conversationally; it's perfectly clear what you mean. Your writing, though, is rough. Again, it's clear enough, but it's awkward. The ability to write clearly, fluently, and correctly is huge in law school.

Honestly, if your goal is to make a lot of money and work for yourself, there are many, many better ways to do this than law school. Maybe you should explore other options?


I know you are not try to insult me and no English is not my first language. While I do want to work for myself, the main reason why I want to go to law school is so that I can help people who were in the same situation I was. Who are either trying to come to this country or are trying to stay.


That typically won't be well paid, or biglaw. Just a heads up.


That's true but it will something that I enjoy doing and it will be rewarding. Better than sitting in cubical do something that you really do not know what the end result of what you do is. Thank you guys for your help, I have a lot to think about.




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