ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

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rad lulz
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:23 am

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Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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blink
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby blink » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:55 pm

Nomo wrote:
blink wrote:
Nomo wrote:Are you in the military already? Because getting JAG will be no walk in the park. And jumping from JAG to AUSA isn't exactly easy either. What's plan B, plan C, and plan D? What are you totally uninterested in?


No military, but my resume screams PI and I'll be focusing on JAG from day 1.

Plan B: clerk for a year or two if necessary and continue to apply to JAG.
Plan C: biglaw? This option isn't something I'd like but if need be, I'd do it.
Plan D: be the token white guy at the end of coach K's bench to hold everyone else back when Jabari hits a big shot.

I guess I'd be totally uninterested in being unsuccessful, whatever that might mean.


The problem is that if you gun hard for JAG and don't get it you're out of the running for biglaw. That's a serious problem. So Biglaw can't really be plan C . . . You need to know what plan C is before you enroll and you need to feel good about it. Even if you were gunning for biglaw you'd still need a backup plan and that's true for everyone outside HYS and I guess CCN.

Assuming you've got a realistic backup plan that you're happy with I'll discuss your options . . . I would go for low cost of attendance. What you really want is JAG, and JAG isn't that prestige obsessed. If you have thee options you should probably look for a school where you've got an even lower cost of attendance. A full-ride, or something close to it, at a state flagship should be your ideal goal, a place like Ohio State since you're from Ohio might make sense. There's no point in blowing cash on Duke or UCLA if you don't want biglaw. Your JAG backup options are most likely going to be PD, DA, legal aid, insurance defense, etc. These jobs, like JAG, pay good money, but its not good enough with high debt. You should minimize debt.

Full disclosure: I went to MVPB with somewhat similar career goals. I graduated with about 150k debt. I got a job, and I like it, but I regret the way I handled my cycle. I had a chance to go to a top 50 state flagship for about 50k of debt. I wish I had gone to the state flagship school.


Wouldn't I have the potential to be one of those rare cases where 3L OCI could actually work for me? I know it has a bad rep on here, and especially in the Vale, but I thought people who were gunning for PI and missed out on it for whatever reason could stand to benefit from interviewing with firms 3L.

To your point on minimizing COA, I have no full ride offers, and the next best offers are only ~30-40k better than duke, but in places with higher COL. I missed out on the Moritz scholarship at OSU and that may have made a difference for me. I'm pretty set on Duke at this point. Is it justifiable?

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rayiner
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby rayiner » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:57 pm

There were 168 3L OCI offers in the whole country, and probably the majority were for people switching firms. I've never met someone who got a 3L OCI offer.

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blink
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby blink » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:01 pm

rayiner wrote:There were 168 3L OCI offers in the whole country, and probably the majority were for people switching firms. I've never met someone who got a 3L OCI offer.


Do you have the breakdown by school? This would seem to be weighted towards the T-14, no?

Also, how many schools even have 3L OCI? To what degree is the (shockingly) low total of offers due to a lower overall amount of students "attending" 3L OCI?

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reasonable_man
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:03 pm

rayiner wrote:There were 168 3L OCI offers in the whole country, and probably the majority were for people switching firms. I've never met someone who got a 3L OCI offer.



They are about as common as those 2L and 3Ls my mid-law firm is hiring these days...

But seriously, 3L OCI is not a real thing. I lump it into the category with unicorns, leprechauns and married men that get regular blow jobs from their wives...

NYSprague
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby NYSprague » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:30 pm

blink wrote:
rayiner wrote:There were 168 3L OCI offers in the whole country, and probably the majority were for people switching firms. I've never met someone who got a 3L OCI offer.


Do you have the breakdown by school? This would seem to be weighted towards the T-14, no?

Also, how many schools even have 3L OCI? To what degree is the (shockingly) low total of offers due to a lower overall amount of students "attending" 3L OCI?

To no degree. The low number is because there are no jobs. Most of this small number have a offer from their summer firm and are trading up or changing markets.

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Get2daChoppa
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Get2daChoppa » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:56 pm

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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby blink » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:36 pm

Get2daChoppa wrote:Goal(s): Biglaw/IP boutique
Regional Ties: Born/raised/UG/worked in Texas. Targeting Texas for employment.
School(s): NYU @ $225k COA (sticker) vs UCLA @ $93k COA ($120k schol).
Other pertinent information: Engineer with 2 years WE. Taking patent bar soon. 50k for first year is saved. Spouse has a good job and will be paying the rest as we go. Expect to graduate with little (<20k) or no debt as long as his employment is stable. Leaving a boring 60k job (120k lifetime ceiling) for a gamble on being bored/stressed in law but making more.


Why no UT?

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Get2daChoppa
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Get2daChoppa » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:39 pm

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blink
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby blink » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:42 pm

Get2daChoppa wrote:
blink wrote:
Get2daChoppa wrote:Goal(s): Biglaw/IP boutique
Regional Ties: Born/raised/UG/worked in Texas. Targeting Texas for employment.
School(s): NYU @ $225k COA (sticker) vs UCLA @ $93k COA ($120k schol).
Other pertinent information: Engineer with 2 years WE. Taking patent bar soon. 50k for first year is saved. Spouse has a good job and will be paying the rest as we go. Expect to graduate with little (<20k) or no debt as long as his employment is stable. Leaving a boring 60k job (120k lifetime ceiling) for a gamble on being bored/stressed in law but making more.


Why no UT?


Good question. Spouse can't move his job there (finance), so we would have to take on debt while crippling his career to live in Austin.


idk how i would feel about trying to get to Texas from either of those schools. What about Duke?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:45 pm

blink wrote:
Get2daChoppa wrote:
blink wrote:
Get2daChoppa wrote:Goal(s): Biglaw/IP boutique
Regional Ties: Born/raised/UG/worked in Texas. Targeting Texas for employment.
School(s): NYU @ $225k COA (sticker) vs UCLA @ $93k COA ($120k schol).
Other pertinent information: Engineer with 2 years WE. Taking patent bar soon. 50k for first year is saved. Spouse has a good job and will be paying the rest as we go. Expect to graduate with little (<20k) or no debt as long as his employment is stable. Leaving a boring 60k job (120k lifetime ceiling) for a gamble on being bored/stressed in law but making more.


Why no UT?


Good question. Spouse can't move his job there (finance), so we would have to take on debt while crippling his career to live in Austin.


idk how i would feel about trying to get to Texas from either of those schools. What about Duke?

Weren't you just asking for yourself? This isn't a thread for 0L's to give advice.

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Get2daChoppa
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Get2daChoppa » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:46 pm

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blink
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby blink » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:52 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Weren't you just asking for yourself? This isn't a thread for 0L's to give advice.


fair enough.

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:55 pm

I concur in what my learned colleagues say about 3LOLCI. It's a way for the top tier firms to round out their class with people from slightly lower ranked biglaw firms.

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sl5uw13
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby sl5uw13 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:29 pm

Goal(s): Biglaw in Richmond VA
Regional Ties: Richmond, Tidewater area
School(s): UVA 80k total COA
Other pertinent information: 25k undergrad loans, parents will probably help a little with COL, unmarketable liberal arts degree with low hourly wage job, soo opportunity cost is super low.

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deadpanic
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby deadpanic » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:05 pm

sl5uw13 wrote:Goal(s): Biglaw in Richmond VA
Regional Ties: Richmond, Tidewater area
School(s): UVA 80k total COA
Other pertinent information: 25k undergrad loans, parents will probably help a little with COL, unmarketable liberal arts degree with low hourly wage job, soo opportunity cost is super low.


UVA for 80k and wanting to work in VA? Enjoy Charlottesville.

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sl5uw13
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby sl5uw13 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:33 pm

deadpanic wrote:
sl5uw13 wrote:Goal(s): Biglaw in Richmond VA
Regional Ties: Richmond, Tidewater area
School(s): UVA 80k total COA
Other pertinent information: 25k undergrad loans, parents will probably help a little with COL, unmarketable liberal arts degree with low hourly wage job, soo opportunity cost is super low.


UVA for 80k and wanting to work in VA? Enjoy Charlottesville.


Thanks! I waffle back and forth over this though because it's still a significant amount of money and I keep reading the threads that are like stupid 0Ls don't know what they're getting into and shouldn't go to law school etc. On the other hand, I dont have much room for advancement at my current job and can't do a whole lot with my degree and should I get biglaw I could probably knock out my debt in 1-2 years living in Richmond with a roommate and having parental help.

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deadpanic
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby deadpanic » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:16 pm

sl5uw13 wrote:
deadpanic wrote:
sl5uw13 wrote:Goal(s): Biglaw in Richmond VA
Regional Ties: Richmond, Tidewater area
School(s): UVA 80k total COA
Other pertinent information: 25k undergrad loans, parents will probably help a little with COL, unmarketable liberal arts degree with low hourly wage job, soo opportunity cost is super low.


UVA for 80k and wanting to work in VA? Enjoy Charlottesville.


Thanks! I waffle back and forth over this though because it's still a significant amount of money and I keep reading the threads that are like stupid 0Ls don't know what they're getting into and shouldn't go to law school etc. On the other hand, I dont have much room for advancement at my current job and can't do a whole lot with my degree and should I get biglaw I could probably knock out my debt in 1-2 years living in Richmond with a roommate and having parental help.


I did overlook the 25k debt you are carrying. That being said, it is still completely justifiable.

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presh
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby presh » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:48 pm

sl5uw13 wrote:
deadpanic wrote:
sl5uw13 wrote:Goal(s): Biglaw in Richmond VA
Regional Ties: Richmond, Tidewater area
School(s): UVA 80k total COA
Other pertinent information: 25k undergrad loans, parents will probably help a little with COL, unmarketable liberal arts degree with low hourly wage job, soo opportunity cost is super low.


UVA for 80k and wanting to work in VA? Enjoy Charlottesville.


Thanks! I waffle back and forth over this though because it's still a significant amount of money and I keep reading the threads that are like stupid 0Ls don't know what they're getting into and shouldn't go to law school etc. On the other hand, I dont have much room for advancement at my current job and can't do a whole lot with my degree and should I get biglaw I could probably knock out my debt in 1-2 years living in Richmond with a roommate and having parental help.


I agree with deadpanic. That is a decent choice. Go for it, even if you end up in midlaw, that debt should be serviceable.

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sl5uw13
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby sl5uw13 » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:07 pm

Thanks you both! I estimated my debt without including 1L and 2L summer money which could knock it down a fair bit and my family says they will help me but haven't said how much so I'm just going to assume zero to be safe. but it could be around 15-20k over the three years so that could bring down the debt too.

rad lulz
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:26 am

sl5uw13 wrote:
deadpanic wrote:
sl5uw13 wrote:Goal(s): Biglaw in Richmond VA
Regional Ties: Richmond, Tidewater area
School(s): UVA 80k total COA
Other pertinent information: 25k undergrad loans, parents will probably help a little with COL, unmarketable liberal arts degree with low hourly wage job, soo opportunity cost is super low.


UVA for 80k and wanting to work in VA? Enjoy Charlottesville.


Thanks! I waffle back and forth over this though because it's still a significant amount of money and I keep reading the threads that are like stupid 0Ls don't know what they're getting into and shouldn't go to law school etc. On the other hand, I dont have much room for advancement at my current job and can't do a whole lot with my degree and should I get biglaw I could probably knock out my debt in 1-2 years living in Richmond with a roommate and having parental help.

You're not paying off $100k in 2 yrs.

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Get2daChoppa
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Get2daChoppa » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:10 pm

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Last edited by Get2daChoppa on Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bound
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby bound » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:24 pm

Goal(s): Texas Biglaw > Literally anywhere else in the country
Regional Ties: Dallas, Tucson, Bay Area
School(s): SMU 130K - This is the absolute most debt that I would be in. This figure is assuming I never work a day, take out loans in the full amount, and my family doesn't contribute a dime. All of this is unlikely, but I wanted to know my absolute worst case scenario.
Other pertinent information: No undergrad debt. WE after college in a firm. I want to work in Dallas long term. I do have other schools I'm considering but I wanted to hear input about this school specifically. SMU is appealing because of it's location, and that I have family/ties who graduated from the school and now work in Dallas at big firms. I have tried negotiating with them about my scholarship amount, but they won't budge and I guess historically they don't negotiate at all. It's bothersome because I have full rides at a number of other schools ranked higher than SMU, but of course those schools aren't in Dallas.

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deadpanic
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby deadpanic » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:19 pm

bound wrote:Goal(s): Texas Biglaw > Literally anywhere else in the country
Regional Ties: Dallas, Tucson, Bay Area
School(s): SMU 130K - This is the absolute most debt that I would be in. This figure is assuming I never work a day, take out loans in the full amount, and my family doesn't contribute a dime. All of this is unlikely, but I wanted to know my absolute worst case scenario.
Other pertinent information: No undergrad debt. WE after college in a firm. I want to work in Dallas long term. I do have other schools I'm considering but I wanted to hear input about this school specifically. SMU is appealing because of it's location, and that I have family/ties who graduated from the school and now work in Dallas at big firms. I have tried negotiating with them about my scholarship amount, but they won't budge and I guess historically they don't negotiate at all. It's bothersome because I have full rides at a number of other schools ranked higher than SMU, but of course those schools aren't in Dallas.


I don't know if I would take out 130k for UTexas and definitely not that much for SMU.

How much higher ranked are we talking for the other schools with full rides? And have you got into Texas?

I know you want to be in Dallas but I think you are approaching it wrong as Dallas or bust due to family/friends--you might have to move elsewhere for law school to give you the best opportunity on getting back to Dallas at the job you want that allows you repay your debt. You have to look at it as 130k and, IMO, that is a completely unreasonable amount for SMU. It may work out and you land big law, but the odds are against you. I wouldn't take that gamble.

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bound
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby bound » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:51 pm

deadpanic wrote:
bound wrote:Goal(s): Texas Biglaw > Literally anywhere else in the country
Regional Ties: Dallas, Tucson, Bay Area
School(s): SMU 130K - This is the absolute most debt that I would be in. This figure is assuming I never work a day, take out loans in the full amount, and my family doesn't contribute a dime. All of this is unlikely, but I wanted to know my absolute worst case scenario.
Other pertinent information: No undergrad debt. WE after college in a firm. I want to work in Dallas long term. I do have other schools I'm considering but I wanted to hear input about this school specifically. SMU is appealing because of it's location, and that I have family/ties who graduated from the school and now work in Dallas at big firms. I have tried negotiating with them about my scholarship amount, but they won't budge and I guess historically they don't negotiate at all. It's bothersome because I have full rides at a number of other schools ranked higher than SMU, but of course those schools aren't in Dallas.


I don't know if I would take out 130k for UTexas and definitely not that much for SMU.

How much higher ranked are we talking for the other schools with full rides? And have you got into Texas?

I know you want to be in Dallas but I think you are approaching it wrong as Dallas or bust due to family/friends--you might have to move elsewhere for law school to give you the best opportunity on getting back to Dallas at the job you want that allows you repay your debt. You have to look at it as 130k and, IMO, that is a completely unreasonable amount for SMU. It may work out and you land big law, but the odds are against you. I wouldn't take that gamble.


Thanks for the response! And you hit everything that I've been hesitant about in regards to SMU. As much as I would like to think that connections would get me where I want to be, I do recognize there's a good chance it won't happen. I also know I can't bank on being at the top of my class. Both of which make me nervous.


I was waitlisted at UT, unfortunately. I don't exactly know why other than I'm out of state and I applied late. I have full rides from all of the other reputable Texas schools other than SMU. I also have full rides from asu and uofa. Half tuition at WUSTL and UCLA. Still waiting on from vandy and cornell. Id probably pick vandy if they got back to me with the right price...probably anything 75K+




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