ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

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worldtraveler
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby worldtraveler » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:32 pm

johannalee wrote:Goals: Some type of civil/human rights law. Not particularly interested in making big money, just want to support myself and a family
Accepted with full tuition to IU-B and Ted I wi receive full tuition to Denver, but I have not officially been given it yet
Have not heard back from Boulder yet but hoping for full tuition with bargaining
Also received $15,000 and in state tuition to UT-Austin
My parents would help me financially through law school but probably not so far as to pay $45,000 for Austin for the three years

Would love to live in Colorado, would be fine with Bloomington, but not so thrilled about Indiana as a whole. Also I like Austin, but wouldn't want to stay in Texas

Advice?


You will not live in Colorado and practice civil and human rights law. It's just not there. You also won't practice either coming out of those schools.

If you're interested in working at legal aid, then maybe one of these free options is okay, but you will still likely have a very tough time as the jobs just aren't there.

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JCougar
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby JCougar » Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:32 pm

Civil rights law is nearly impossible to get into. You're either going to have to plan on volunteering for 1-2 years after graduation at government/non-profit "fellowships," or slave away in some plaintiff's shitlaw firm for 40K/year & 70 hours a week--and then lateral in to someplace better down the road. Which you might be able to do if you have no debt and no family to support for a few years after graduation.

Either that, or you should get into a T6.

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deadpanic
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby deadpanic » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:49 pm

anna8506 wrote:So how would you guys put UMN in the original post, as Might be worth it for free/near free or no go under any condition?
Thanks


I would just treat it like any other state flagship law school. Might be worth attending if (1) you're from MN and want to/are okay with small law practice in MN and (2) take on no more than 50ish thousand in debt for COA (maybe slightly more if you don't have any other debt)

johannalee
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby johannalee » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:53 am

Woops I apparently wasn't paying much attention when I wrote my previous post. Civil Rights/Human Rights is what I'd like to do if Berkeley or Harvard work out, otherwise I'm pretty open. I'm considering Family law or maybe some sort of inmate justice law (Innocence Project, etc.) . I know Indiana has a pretty cool program with that, and so does Denver I believe.

Anyways, doubt that changes anything, but still worth noting.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:36 am

johannalee wrote:Woops I apparently wasn't paying much attention when I wrote my previous post. Civil Rights/Human Rights is what I'd like to do if Berkeley or Harvard work out, otherwise I'm pretty open. I'm considering Family law or maybe some sort of inmate justice law (Innocence Project, etc.) . I know Indiana has a pretty cool program with that, and so does Denver I believe.

Anyways, doubt that changes anything, but still worth noting.

Do you mean IU and DU have Innocence Project programs? What kind of job do you think this will get you out of school? There aren't a lot of jobs in inmate justice law because, frankly, inmates don't have any money. The reason there are Innocence Project clinics in law schools is because they provide free legal services.

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:39 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
johannalee wrote:Woops I apparently wasn't paying much attention when I wrote my previous post. Civil Rights/Human Rights is what I'd like to do if Berkeley or Harvard work out, otherwise I'm pretty open. I'm considering Family law or maybe some sort of inmate justice law (Innocence Project, etc.) . I know Indiana has a pretty cool program with that, and so does Denver I believe.

Anyways, doubt that changes anything, but still worth noting.

Do you mean IU and DU have Innocence Project programs? What kind of job do you think this will get you out of school? There aren't a lot of jobs in inmate justice law because, frankly, inmates don't have any money. The reason there are Innocence Project clinics in law schools is because they provide free legal services.


This. I know a little about this area of law. It is insanely difficult to get a job with the IP or Neufeld, Scheck. Top of the class at a T10 difficult.

It's easier to get a job as a public defender or in legal aid, and working in a criminal justice clinic in law school will help with that. But that's very different work and requires a different skill set.

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JCougar
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby JCougar » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:43 pm

Yeah, people forget about the economics of law pretty often. You can't make a salary representing poor/underprivileged people because they have no money to pay you. So if you want to do civil rights law, either you have to rely on charitable donations or government funding to pay your salary, or you have to practice in an area where you can bring class actions where the potential reward is high enough to work on a contingency basis and outweighs the risk of putting in hundreds of hours that you know your clients can't pay you for if you lose. Or you can volunteer--which it seems like most PI jobs require these days after graduation before they actually hire you on a year or so later.

Plaintiffs class action civil rights firms are few and far between, and rarely hire straight out of law school unless you go to HYS, and maybe CCNB (Berkeley is better than Penn in this regard). And even if you go to one of these schools, it can be difficult to work at these places. I know people that graduated from Harvard that wanted to do this kind of work but couldn't.

That's not to be confused with consumer class actions/personal injury, etc. These firms will hire from everywhere if you target them right away. But when it comes to civil rights class actions, it's incredibly hard to get a job no matter where you go. I think civil rights class actions are actually harder to get into than securities class actions. Besides Article III clerkships, it might be the most selective area of law in the country--except it's not all about grades. It's about school rank, background, writing ability, and demonstrated focus in the area.

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anna8506
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby anna8506 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:06 pm

deadpanic wrote:
anna8506 wrote:So how would you guys put UMN in the original post, as Might be worth it for free/near free or no go under any condition?
Thanks


I would just treat it like any other state flagship law school. Might be worth attending if (1) you're from MN and want to/are okay with small law practice in MN and (2) take on no more than 50ish thousand in debt for COA (maybe slightly more if you don't have any other debt)

Thanks!

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MKX
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby MKX » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:47 pm

edit wrong section.
Last edited by MKX on Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rpupkin
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby rpupkin » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:00 pm

MKX wrote:Going to Chicago-Kent with a great sized scholarship...

I live in the Chicago area so I will be staying at home so I won't have anything to pay for except school/books. I hope to work in Chicago as well. Was Kent a reasonable choice for me then?

I hope to do corporate law and I know someone who can 99% guarantee me an in house business law internship. They can't obviously guarantee me a job because they work in a different department but I figure not a bad start..


Just wondering what are my chances of being able to transfer into NW after 1L? (I start this fall). It was my freshman GPA in college that hurt me in the selection process. I had under a 3.0 my first year in school and I'll be graduating around a 3.6 so I turned it around but I couldn't fix my GPA in time for applications.

This thread is for telling you why your top choice is bad; it's not for making you feel better about a choice you've already made.

As for your question about transferring to NU, ask in the transfers forum.

rad lulz
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:34 pm

anna8506 wrote:So how would you guys put UMN in the original post, as Might be worth it for free/near free or no go under any condition?
Thanks

Free or near free if you are from mn that's it

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FKASunny
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby FKASunny » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:56 pm

rad lulz wrote:
anna8506 wrote:So how would you guys put UMN in the original post, as Might be worth it for free/near free or no go under any condition?
Thanks

Free or near free if you are from mn that's it

What if you're from Boston and want to practice Eskimo Law?

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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby ncj » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:37 pm

university of san francisco with ~1/2 tuition scholarship
golden gate university with full tuition scholarship

both contingent on 3.0 gpa after each spring

would live with parents
born/raised in san francisco
lsat 158
gpa 3.5 from USF, but lower overall (transfer)
goal: not sure yet but probably too old for biglaw anyways

ty

rad lulz
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:33 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JCougar
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby JCougar » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:47 pm

ncj wrote:university of san francisco with ~1/2 tuition scholarship
golden gate university with full tuition scholarship

both contingent on 3.0 gpa after each spring

would live with parents
born/raised in san francisco
lsat 158
gpa 3.5 from USF, but lower overall (transfer)
goal: not sure yet but probably too old for biglaw anyways

ty


Yeah, neither are worth the opportunity cost even if free.

Seems like you should have better options with a 158. Golden Gate has like open admissions and lets anyone with a pulse in. I'd think about retaking to see if you can get into Hastings and take advantage of in-state tuition and zero cost of living. And hopefully a little scholly on top of that.

ETA: Hastings' LSAT median last year was 159. Not sure if they're going to maintain that this year, but this is why you should retake. A single point and you can probably go there for the cost of USF. Not that options from even Hastings are great these days, but GG and USF are two of the worst schools in the entire country at placing people into actual lawyer jobs.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby ScottRiqui » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:19 am

Goal(s): IP in Dallas, wanting to start off in biglaw and eventually transition to in-house/boutique.
Regional Ties: Strong Texas ties, especially Dallas/Ft. Worth (grew up in Texas, high school and undergrad in D/FW, family still there, etc)
School(s): UT, with total published COA covered except for about $5k/year
Other pertinent information: Household income of about $85k/year from spouse and other sources.

Opportunity cost: Staying at my current job isn't an option, but I could probably bypass law school and get into something making ~75k/year, with gradual advancement/pay increases over time.

I realize that I'm in a very good position overall, but I'm wondering how realistic "Dallas or bust" is from outside the T14, especially in a niche market like IP. If it matters, my undergrad is computer science engineering and my master's is in physics. Haven't really worked in either field, though.

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JCougar
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby JCougar » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:22 am

I have a hard time telling you not to go to Texas knowing all that. You're in great shape.

rad lulz
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby rad lulz » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:33 am

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby ScottRiqui » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:43 am

rad lulz wrote:I wouldn't go to UT if you're making that money already


Just to clarify, that $85k/year total household income is after I leave my job in a few months (which is happening - I have no choice in the matter). Right now, household income is about $175k/year in total. So skipping law school and going straight into the kind of job I think I could get would leave me about $15k/year short of where I am right now.

El Principe
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby El Principe » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:06 am

.
Last edited by El Principe on Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:12 am

El Principe wrote:High COA for UT... but UT is a good school, but for 150-170K... idk.

Keep in mind this thread is designed for practicing attorneys to comment, not 0Ls. (Also, ScottRiqui posted that he'd be paying $5K/year in COA, so I'm not sure what this refers to.)

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Bikeflip
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:28 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:(Also, ScottRiqui posted that he'd be paying $5K/year in COA, so I'm not sure what this refers to.)


Yeah. Just to clarify, Scott you've got tuition and cost of living nearly covered, correct? You're just $5,000 short and would have to borrow $5,000? And you could get a $75,000 a year job, or at least work up to one that makes that much, reasonably soon? (This last figure come from plugging in your latest numbers: Currently have a HH income of $175,000, which will soon be $85,000. So your current job is $90,000, and if you can get a job that pays $15,000 less, you'd make $75,000).

At $5,000 a year, UT is a steal, but if you could have a HH Income of $160,000 (spouse's $85,000 and your $75,000), I'd skip law school.

El Principe
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby El Principe » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:42 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Keep in mind this thread is designed for practicing attorneys to comment, not 0Ls. (Also, ScottRiqui posted that he'd be paying $5K/year in COA, so I'm not sure what this refers to.)


Sorry... had several tabs open & didn't realize I was replying to this thread and not just a general one in this section. :oops:

jjleague
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby jjleague » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:42 am

I have read some of the other Oregon centric comments so I thought I would throw my choices.

Goal(s): Post school are return to the Coast Guard as a Judge Advocate, not really a goal more a requirement since they will be paying me and for my school. I will be an active duty O-3 the entire time with full pay and allotments. My long term goals once I retire from the service is to return to Oregon and work for a practice,teach at law school or open a private practice.
Regional Ties: Friends who run a medical practice no legal ties, yet. No school ties.
School(s): Willamette, free with CG and scholly and 2.9 stip
Oregon, maybe free with CG, scholly (no stip) and fellowship, if no fellowship then 4500/year which I will cash flow
Seattle, 8k/yr out of pocket which we would cash flow.

Other pertinent information: No COA or other debt, wife will get a job once move back stateside.

cotterpyke
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby cotterpyke » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:12 pm

Goal: to work in litigation when I graduate. Ideally in biglaw or prosecution, but I would be okay with working at a smaller law firm or a government agency. Prefer to be in NY over DC, though I will take the best job I can find.

Ties: No legal or school ties in either city.

Schools: Half-tuition scholarship at Fordham, 10k at GW. Waitlisted at lower-T14. Scholarship at GW may be increased.

Other info: Paying for school with combination of scholarships/family. Took lsat twice, highest score (165) was around my average pt so I feel comfortable that I maxed out.

My plan is to ride the waitlist, but if I don't get in, I will consider the scholarship situation and updated employment data. Any thoughts?




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