ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
The Godfather
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby The Godfather » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:56 pm

What about midsize law? anybody have some good info about the MSP market in general?

User avatar
bjsesq
TLS Poet Laureate
Posts: 13383
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:02 am

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby bjsesq » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:57 pm

The Godfather wrote:Goal : Biglaw law in the local region
Full Ride at U of Minn Law (if kept above 2.5)


If your goals are flexible, I say go for it. If your goal is that or bust, run, don't walk.

The Godfather
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby The Godfather » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:01 pm

If my goals are flexible, but the endgame is to make a nice living, full ride at minnesota or sticker at U of Michigan?

User avatar
Bikeflip
Posts: 1833
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:03 pm

bjsesq wrote:
The Godfather wrote:Goal : Biglaw law in the local region
Full Ride at U of Minn Law (if kept above 2.5)


If your goals are flexible, I say go for it. If your goal is that or bust, run, don't walk.



Yeah, I kinda feel a fair amount of 0Ls were like me as a 0L. "I want big law so I can be rich, or at least comfortable, in my local market." Awesome. Being rich in a mid-size city that values culture and beer can be great. There's enough stuff to do, and housing's cheaper than NYC/SFO. Plus your friends are there, so you have people to go to new bars or events with! Valid reasons to want to be rich or comfortable. Just look at the big law numbers and realize there are easier ways to become rich without paying back $150,000 in loans at $1,500 a month.

User avatar
worldtraveler
Posts: 7669
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:47 am

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:06 pm

The Godfather wrote:If my goals are flexible, but the endgame is to make a nice living, full ride at minnesota or sticker at U of Michigan?


How do you feel about living in MN your whole life?

User avatar
bjsesq
TLS Poet Laureate
Posts: 13383
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:02 am

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby bjsesq » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:06 pm

The Godfather wrote:If my goals are flexible, but the endgame is to make a nice living, full ride at minnesota or sticker at U of Michigan?


You can make a nice living outside of biglaw, dooder. Honest. Also, consider how nice your living is going to be with 250k in debt waiting for you at the end of school.

The Godfather
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby The Godfather » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:10 pm

Gotta look up definition of dooder... :shock:.
I wouldnt mind getting my first job in MN, but 5-10 years down the road i would want the option of moving back to the east coast...

User avatar
Bikeflip
Posts: 1833
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:15 pm

The Godfather wrote:Gotta look up definition of dooder... :shock:.
I wouldnt mind getting my first job in MN, but 5-10 years down the road i would want the option of moving back to the east coast...



Minn's most likely out then. Godfather bro, what would you do if you didn't wanna be a lawyer?

User avatar
bjsesq
TLS Poet Laureate
Posts: 13383
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:02 am

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby bjsesq » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:15 pm

The Godfather wrote:Gotta look up definition of dooder... :shock:.
I wouldnt mind getting my first job in MN, but 5-10 years down the road i would want the option of moving back to the east coast...


Moving from a secondary to a primary market (assuming east coast= DC or NYC) is decidedly more difficult than the reverse.

The Godfather
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby The Godfather » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:25 pm

I don't know Bikeflip.... I have a lot of connections in MN, but if i cant reasonably rely on coming back to the east coast down the road, I would be scared to make that commitment...

User avatar
Bikeflip
Posts: 1833
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:35 pm

The Godfather wrote:I don't know Bikeflip.... I have a lot of connections in MN, but if i cant reasonably rely on coming back to the east coast down the road, I would be scared to make that commitment...



Which is understandable. The risk of being stuck in a place you don't wanna live in would suck. Any of those connections helpful to get a good nonlegal job that will allow you to live comfortably (and ideally has great upwards mobility)?

The Godfather
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby The Godfather » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:39 pm

Believe it or not, most of the connections are lawyers. I could possibly try to get into another area of work, but is it a total waste to give up a full ride at U of Minn?

User avatar
bjsesq
TLS Poet Laureate
Posts: 13383
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:02 am

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby bjsesq » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:42 pm

The Godfather wrote:Believe it or not, most of the connections are lawyers. I could possibly try to get into another area of work, but is it a total waste to give up a full ride at U of Minn?


To be honest, I am just not sure you have reasonable expectations about what you can do in the future and might hold off on law school completely. What you've said so far reads like this to me:

I want to be a big law lawyer and that is about it. I want to do it in the MN area, and then after 10 years escape back to the coast.

That's about all you have given us. With these facts, I would just tell you not to go to law school.

User avatar
worldtraveler
Posts: 7669
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:47 am

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:43 pm

The Godfather wrote:Believe it or not, most of the connections are lawyers. I could possibly try to get into another area of work, but is it a total waste to give up a full ride at U of Minn?


If you want to spend your life in MN, it's a great deal. If you don't, you'd be better off taking money at BC or BU if you want the east coast more.

User avatar
Bikeflip
Posts: 1833
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:52 pm

bjsesq wrote:
The Godfather wrote:Believe it or not, most of the connections are lawyers. I could possibly try to get into another area of work, but is it a total waste to give up a full ride at U of Minn?


To be honest, I am just not sure you have reasonable expectations about what you can do in the future and might hold off on law school completely. What you've said so far reads like this to me:

I want to be a big law lawyer and that is about it. I want to do it in the MN area, and then after 10 years escape back to the coast.

That's about all you have given us. With these facts, I would just tell you not to go to law school.



So far I have to agree. Law school is a bad place to be if you just want a place to be; 3 years is an expensive opportunity cost, even if you don't have debt. Those attorneys have clients. They know anyone hiring? Networking is an overused career services office term, but it can be useful in a situation like this.

User avatar
paglababa
Posts: 888
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:34 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby paglababa » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:55 pm

Not sure if this has been tackled on the thread, but some of the T14 not worth it at sticker? Not even HYS?

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:59 pm

paglababa wrote:Not sure if this has been tackled on the thread, but some of the T14 not worth it at sticker? Not even HYS?


Again, it just depends on your debt tolerance and how you want to spend your 20s and early 30s.

As someone without much UG debt, and who is now paying back low-six figs of law school debt, it sucks. It's numbers on a page or computer screen to you guys, but I make a very good salary and 70% of my income goes to the government in some form (and I don't even qualify for a tax break for SL interest since I make more than $75K- although I paid over $10K in interest on those loans this year). I'm not an "all taxation is evil" guy, but there's something seriously fucked up with that system. I pull a lot of 60 or 80 hour weeks to live like a law student.

If you have any other decently paying options I have no idea why you'd go 250 or 300K in debt even for a biglaw job.

Don't get me wrong, my job is awesome and I am extraordinarily lucky to be one of the ones who "made it." That's why I cannot even begin to understand what the people I know who took out 200K in debt and did not get good work are thinking.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Godfather
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby The Godfather » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:02 pm

Well my Bio should read like this....
I want to make a comfortable income, I THINK I could enjoy law because I worked in a law office and loved studying for the LSAT. I could get a free degree from the best school in the region, should I go for it or is the law market stupid to get into and wouldnt allow for any moving flexibility.
I agree that I am not freakingly passionate about law, but is it my best career choice I can make?

User avatar
Bikeflip
Posts: 1833
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:03 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
paglababa wrote:Not sure if this has been tackled on the thread, but some of the T14 not worth it at sticker? Not even HYS?


Again, it just depends on your debt tolerance and how you want to spend your 20s and early 30s.

As someone without much UG debt, and who is now paying back low-six figs of law school debt, it sucks. It's numbers on a page or computer screen to you guys, but I make a very good salary and 70% of my income goes to the government in some form (and I don't even qualify for a tax break for SL interest since I make more than $75K- although I paid over $10K in interest on those loans this year). I'm not an "all taxation is evil" guy, but there's something seriously fucked up with that system. I pull a lot of 60 or 80 hour weeks to live like a law student.

If you have any other decently paying options I have no idea why you'd go 250 or 300K in debt even for a biglaw job.



This. Many go to law school to get ahead in life. I honestly feel that law school set me back.

The Godfather wrote:Well my Bio should read like this....
I want to make a comfortable income, I THINK I could enjoy law because I worked in a law office and loved studying for the LSAT. I could get a free degree from the best school in the region, should I go for it or is the law market stupid to get into and wouldnt allow for any moving flexibility.
I agree that I am not freakingly passionate about law, but is it my best career choice I can make?



If you're not passionate, then it's not your best move. If you're like me and liked brain teaser puzzles as a kid, the LSAT was kinda fun. Being a(n underemployed) attorney looking up statutes to finish a motion is nothing like the LSAT. It's actually boring but very dense reading.

What I would do is have one of your legal connections hire you to do paralegal work, and see if you like it. A fair amount of paralegal work is substantially similar to baby lawyer work. You've got sometime between now and August, if you do decide to enroll in law school, to test drive being a lawyer (and get paid to do it).

The Godfather
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby The Godfather » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:10 pm

Bikeflip, why?

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:10 pm

Here's two broad themes that keep popping up ITT that maybe could use some greater analysis from all of us. I think they describe the situation a lot of applicants are in.

1) I got into [insert regional or T50 school here] with a large or full scholarship, but I really just want to work biglaw/corporate law. Should I still go to law school?

2) I got into a T14 with no or little money, I'm not sure what I want to do in the law, and I am kind of debt averse. Should I still go to law school?

User avatar
Bikeflip
Posts: 1833
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:01 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:31 pm

The Godfather wrote:Bikeflip, why?


Cuz bro.

leib10
Posts: 106
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:49 am

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby leib10 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:18 pm

Goal(s): District Attorney's Office, unknown later goals
Regional Ties: Family and friends in law in El Paso, TX
School(s): Texas Tech, $7000/yr scholarship; Baylor, no scholarship
Other pertinent information: Spouse will provide cost of living, friends and family in Lubbock

User avatar
worldtraveler
Posts: 7669
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:47 am

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:56 pm

leib10 wrote:Goal(s): District Attorney's Office, unknown later goals
Regional Ties: Family and friends in law in El Paso, TX
School(s): Texas Tech, $7000/yr scholarship; Baylor, no scholarship
Other pertinent information: Spouse will provide cost of living, friends and family in Lubbock


The only way this would possibly work is if you are absolutely committed to being a DA forever and can go on PSLF. Even then that's a bit of a risk given that you might not even find an eligible job.

Otherwise, absolutely not for that amount of work.

User avatar
BlueLotus
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:07 pm

Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:57 pm

dresden doll wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
beach_terror wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:Why Cardozo=Bad Under Any Circumstances and Temple=Good, when they are similarly ranked (and both located in markets saturated with lawl schools)?

Philadelphia isn't saturated like NYC is (and is much cheaper). Temple is also high in the peaking order, along with Villanova. The Philadelphia equivalent of a Cardozo in NYC is Widener or Drexel. Job prospects in Philly are still very poor, FWIW.


Thanks!

I chose to go to a T30 in a neighboring market for free, and wanna do PD/Legal Aid in Philly. As someone familiar with that market, what steps would you recommend I take? Did my 1L summer there, and secured a 2L summer PI jerb in Philly as well as a spring/winter break pro bono thing. Have strong ties, as in grew up in southeastern PA.


Does your school offer fellowships? If so, it may be easiest to apply for those (although I'd still search otherwise and treat the fellowship as a backup option). Many PDs will take on law school fellows because they perpetually need more staff than they can afford to fund. You may wind up with a full time gig from that point onwards; a number of people have.


Should I do Moot Ct.? Will it boost my employability in any measurable way, or is it a waste of time? I am already interning ~20 hours a week on top of classes, so I'm not sure I'd have time to devote to it!




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: almondjoy, Baidu [Spider], mt2165, Thomas Hagan, ESQ. and 3 guests