ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

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rad lulz
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby rad lulz » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:46 pm

Chances of ANY job from Cardozo aren't good so I'd probs pass on that

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Dr. Review
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Dr. Review » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:47 pm

rad lulz wrote:Chances of ANY job from Cardozo aren't good so I'd probs pass on that

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:50 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:Timb: I don't plan on re-taking.



Why not? It seems like you have a job that can hold you over another year.

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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby C0NFUSED0L » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:52 pm

I know... i don't think I'm in an ideal situation, but honestly, if I had a gun to my head right now, I'm a 1L in Cardozo on a full ride, against the odds.

I probably should have taken the LSAT slightly more seriously, but at this point, I don't see when I would retake because I definitely want to be in law school in August...can't set my life back a year, with an SO who wants to get engaged in a year + .

Any thoughts on negotiating with Fordham to move up within the NYC rankings a little bit?

Again, appreciate the thoughts.

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Dr. Review
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Dr. Review » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:59 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:I know... i don't think I'm in an ideal situation, but honestly, if I had a gun to my head right now, I'm a 1L in Cardozo on a full ride, against the odds.

I probably should have taken the LSAT slightly more seriously, but at this point, I don't see when I would retake because I definitely want to be in law school in August...can't set my life back a year, with an SO who wants to get engaged in a year + .

Any thoughts on negotiating with Fordham to move up within the NYC rankings a little bit?

Again, appreciate the thoughts.

I understand your trepidation. In fact, I ended up not doing a retake when I should have. It worked out for me because I am a special snowflake (read: IP background), but for the vast majority it won't. Retaking the LSAT and sitting tight for a year could literally be the difference in getting the job of your dreams and having no job at all. Think about that. For more information, see, e.g., The Vale of Tears. You think it won't happen to you, but more than 4 out of every 10 grads from Cardozo last year is not a lawyer right now. Meanwhile at NYU, less than 1 in 10 are in the same boat. You have the GPA and the LSAT is within reach. Not everyone can say that.

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:05 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:I know... i don't think I'm in an ideal situation, but honestly, if I had a gun to my head right now, I'm a 1L in Cardozo on a full ride, against the odds.

I probably should have taken the LSAT slightly more seriously, but at this point, I don't see when I would retake because I definitely want to be in law school in August...can't set my life back a year, with an SO who wants to get engaged in a year + .

Any thoughts on negotiating with Fordham to move up within the NYC rankings a little bit?

Again, appreciate the thoughts.


My legal career began way before I set foot in law school. In retrospect, where I am now had a lot to do with deciding to study like mad for the LSAT get a good score and get into a school where there was a lot more wiggle room to be mediocre (and even I had problems getting a job from a T6- people I know who graduated from Cardozo my year are much less fortunate). Again, you really have to think of it not as setting your life back, but moving it forward by seriously increasing your options. Want to clerk for a district court judge? Have a shot at working for the federal government? Work for a litigation boutique?

If you are not prepared to take the LSAT seriously than you are not prepared to take law school or the profession seriously. That's just the plain truth of it.

C0NFUSED0L
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby C0NFUSED0L » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:08 pm

one of these posts I will figure out how to quote, haha.

While on a black/white scale it seems obvious to retake, I wish I had known that in September or even December. At this point, though, I am resigned to going to school this fall. I just can't push off going to school for a year, as I will be almost 24 when I start.

Consdering I would be in on a full scholarship though, doesn't that seem to set me up for success and make me way more likely to be one of the 2/10 grads getting good job or 6/10 getting any job? (less pressure due to no stips/no debt, and good #'s compared to classmates)

Additionally, due to the fact that I would have 'minimal debt' (i'd venture to say 20-25k TOTAL if i went to dozo), wouldn't I have a lot of options within and outside of the law world? I am confident in my intellect and abilities, but the real kicker for me is that I would be in as much debt as the average undergrad, yet with a JD.

I know this wouldn't compare with a 173 > Harvard > world is my oyster, but considering my situation (S.O., family/friends in NYC area, strong desire to attend in fall '14) is it really THAT bad?

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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby C0NFUSED0L » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:10 pm

TIMBS- you are definitely correct.

It's not a matter of being willing to take it seriously. I'm more than willing. Just in retrospect, I could have done more. If I knew TLS existed in 2013 things may be different.

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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:15 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:one of these posts I will figure out how to quote, haha.

While on a black/white scale it seems obvious to retake, I wish I had known that in September or even December. At this point, though, I am resigned to going to school this fall. I just can't push off going to school for a year, as I will be almost 24 when I start.

Consdering I would be in on a full scholarship though, doesn't that seem to set me up for success and make me way more likely to be one of the 2/10 grads getting good job or 6/10 getting any job? (less pressure due to no stips/no debt, and good #'s compared to classmates)

Additionally, due to the fact that I would have 'minimal debt' (i'd venture to say 20-25k TOTAL if i went to dozo), wouldn't I have a lot of options within and outside of the law world? I am confident in my intellect and abilities, but the real kicker for me is that I would be in as much debt as the average undergrad, yet with a JD.

I know this wouldn't compare with a 173 > Harvard > world is my oyster, but considering my situation (S.O., family/friends in NYC area, strong desire to attend in fall '14) is it really THAT bad?


1) I work with a guy who is 40 years old, graduated my year, and went to law school after being hugely successful in an entirely different field. I knew half a dozen classmates in their 30s, also with prior careers. I think the mean age was something like 25 or 26. 24 is actually the perfect age IMO (I was 21 when I started- far too young). You're also in an advantage in that you're doing something legally related, and you seem to be in NYC already, which takes out the "I'd rather go to law school in NYC than move back with my parents in nowheresville and study" post-college malaise.

2) There's some correlation between LSAT/GPA and first-year grades. But it's not as strong as you'd think, and the improvement in job prospects between a place like Cardozo and CLS/NYU worth it. Maybe you'd end up in the top 25% at Cardozo or the top 40% at Fordham- that's on the cusp for biglaw and completely shuts you out of most other prestigious work like a federal clerkship. But median at CLS/NYU puts you in a great spot for a wider variety of jobs.

Oh, and the higher you go, the more likely an employer is going to bite at your resume for a nonlaw job. I was getting interviews with banks and consulting firms just off the basis of my law school being elite.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

californiauser
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby californiauser » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:16 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:one of these posts I will figure out how to quote, haha.

While on a black/white scale it seems obvious to retake, I wish I had known that in September or even December. At this point, though, I am resigned to going to school this fall. I just can't push off going to school for a year, as I will be almost 24 when I start.

Consdering I would be in on a full scholarship though, doesn't that seem to set me up for success and make me way more likely to be one of the 2/10 grads getting good job or 6/10 getting any job? (less pressure due to no stips/no debt, and good #'s compared to classmates)

Additionally, due to the fact that I would have 'minimal debt' (i'd venture to say 20-25k TOTAL if i went to dozo), wouldn't I have a lot of options within and outside of the law world? I am confident in my intellect and abilities, but the real kicker for me is that I would be in as much debt as the average undergrad, yet with a JD.

I know this wouldn't compare with a 173 > Harvard > world is my oyster, but considering my situation (S.O., family/friends in NYC area, strong desire to attend in fall '14) is it really THAT bad?



Most lawyers don't want to hire Cardozo grads, why would someone outside of the legal profession want to hire a Dozo grad?

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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby C0NFUSED0L » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:16 pm

What I'm basically getting at, is that I think you guys are right, but in terms of what i AM working with, it looks like Cardozo/Fordham/awaiting good news from a T14.

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:18 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:What I'm basically getting at, is that I think you guys are right, but in terms of what i AM working with, it looks like Cardozo/Fordham/awaiting good news from a T14.


Gun to my head, I'd choose Cardozo, just because if you mess up it's not going to be the end of the world debt-wise.

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dwil770
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby dwil770 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:20 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:one of these posts I will figure out how to quote, haha.

While on a black/white scale it seems obvious to retake, I wish I had known that in September or even December. At this point, though, I am resigned to going to school this fall. I just can't push off going to school for a year, as I will be almost 24 when I start.

Consdering I would be in on a full scholarship though, doesn't that seem to set me up for success and make me way more likely to be one of the 2/10 grads getting good job or 6/10 getting any job? (less pressure due to no stips/no debt, and good #'s compared to classmates)

Additionally, due to the fact that I would have 'minimal debt' (i'd venture to say 20-25k TOTAL if i went to dozo), wouldn't I have a lot of options within and outside of the law world? I am confident in my intellect and abilities, but the real kicker for me is that I would be in as much debt as the average undergrad, yet with a JD.

I know this wouldn't compare with a 173 > Harvard > world is my oyster, but considering my situation (S.O., family/friends in NYC area, strong desire to attend in fall '14) is it really THAT bad?


I'm in a somewhat similar boat. Decided waiting to retake would be worth it.

The chance of things panning out with the SO and you getting a job as a lawyer out of dozo is less than 25%. You're 23. Don't call it a game just yet.

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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby C0NFUSED0L » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:23 pm

Great points all.

Is it unreasonable to go into Cardozo with the mindset of:

"I am highly confident that I can finish in the top 20 percent, while being aware that everyone thinks this way.

But if I don't, my life isn't over debt-wise, and I hope to get lucky (by means of a connection/current employer/find a different job that i have the freedom to take due to minor financial constraints)"

as opposed to re-taking, getting a 168, and being in a similar position next year with maybe slightly different offers but an equally difficult decision.

my current job is low-paying. it's not enough to live on in NYC. i'm out of my parents house regardless after this year, and I don't know if the rent will be taken care of if I'm not in school...i know it's hard to go case-by-case like this...

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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:29 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:Great points all.

Is it unreasonable to go into Cardozo with the mindset of:

"I am highly confident that I can finish in the top 20 percent, while being aware that everyone thinks this way.

But if I don't, my life isn't over debt-wise, and I hope to get lucky (by means of a connection/current employer/find a different job that i have the freedom to take due to minor financial constraints)"

as opposed to re-taking, getting a 168, and being in a similar position next year with maybe slightly different offers but an equally difficult decision.

my current job is low-paying. it's not enough to live on in NYC. i'm out of my parents house regardless after this year, and I don't know if the rent will be taken care of if I'm not in school...i know it's hard to go case-by-case like this...


Yes. Thats is a very unreasonable mindset. Sorry

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Bikeflip
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:35 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:my current job is low-paying. it's not enough to live on in NYC. i'm out of my parents house regardless after this year, and I don't know if the rent will be taken care of if I'm not in school...i know it's hard to go case-by-case like this...



That's how people make bad choices, they feel they must make the choice. Also, "I must go to one those schools" is a false choice. So let me give you another false choice: Your life may suck for a year while you sit out and retake, but it beats being an unemployed 3L/post grad and looking at your loan balance. Read this thread to see what can (and most likely will) happen if you don't have a job lined up by the end of 2L.

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worldtraveler
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:40 pm

Bikeflip wrote:
C0NFUSED0L wrote:my current job is low-paying. it's not enough to live on in NYC. i'm out of my parents house regardless after this year, and I don't know if the rent will be taken care of if I'm not in school...i know it's hard to go case-by-case like this...



That's how people make bad choices, they feel they must make the choice. Also, "I must go to one those schools" is a false choice. So let me give you another false choice: Your life may suck for a year while you sit out and retake, but it beats being an unemployed 3L/post grad and looking at your loan balance. Read this thread to see what can (and most likely will) happen if you don't have a job lined up by the end of 2L.


Yeah that's a terrible reason to make a life changing decision.

go teach English in Korea or something if you're really that desperate. It's one year of your life vs. the rest of it.

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Dr. Review
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Dr. Review » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:41 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:Great points all.

Is it unreasonable to go into Cardozo with the mindset of:

"I am highly confident that I can finish in the top 20 percent, while being aware that everyone thinks this way.

But if I don't, my life isn't over debt-wise, and I hope to get lucky (by means of a connection/current employer/find a different job that i have the freedom to take due to minor financial constraints)"

as opposed to re-taking, getting a 168, and being in a similar position next year with maybe slightly different offers but an equally difficult decision.

my current job is low-paying. it's not enough to live on in NYC. i'm out of my parents house regardless after this year, and I don't know if the rent will be taken care of if I'm not in school...i know it's hard to go case-by-case like this...

You are statistically unlikely to be much above median, and no amount of hard work can guarantee you anything. It may be hard to conceptualizer that, but this is not a case where effort is rewarded by success. You are curved against your classmates. Some people just get it and some just don't, and there's no way of knowing which you are until it is too late. I might also add that grades give you a shot at a job, they don't guarantee one.

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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:42 pm

C0NFUSED0L wrote:Great points all.

Is it unreasonable to go into Cardozo with the mindset of:

"I am highly confident that I can finish in the top 20 percent, while being aware that everyone thinks this way.

But if I don't, my life isn't over debt-wise, and I hope to get lucky (by means of a connection/current employer/find a different job that i have the freedom to take due to minor financial constraints)"

as opposed to re-taking, getting a 168, and being in a similar position next year with maybe slightly different offers but an equally difficult decision.

my current job is low-paying. it's not enough to live on in NYC. i'm out of my parents house regardless after this year, and I don't know if the rent will be taken care of if I'm not in school...i know it's hard to go case-by-case like this...


Look, if your parents are willing to subsidize you for law school, then they can subsidize you living out of the house (or you can just live with them). Explain that another year might yield much better results, you're not going to be sitting around doing nothing, and worst-case scenario you end up in the exact same boat.

muskies970
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby muskies970 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:51 pm

Dude what are you in such a rush to go to law school for? Do you think law school is some fundamentally altering experience that will change you positively that it has to happen right now? Spend a year off working a decent job, spending quality time with your fiance, travelling, whatever, and study hard as hell for the LSAT and see your score go up. Like you said, you didn't even take the LSAT seriously, imagine what months of hard training and drilling on weekends will do.

Then, in 3 years like all these people with experience are telling you, you will be graduating with much more certain chances of a stable job, a stable future to plan with your wife, and just all around in a better place. Or you can rush into law school, be stressed and worried about your future, and then it may or may not work out.

A year off before law school is not a bad thing when you're preparing for it, there's not need to rush other than you "wanting to" as a sign you're beginning your life or something weird.

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Bikeflip
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:01 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Bikeflip wrote:
C0NFUSED0L wrote:my current job is low-paying. it's not enough to live on in NYC. i'm out of my parents house regardless after this year, and I don't know if the rent will be taken care of if I'm not in school...i know it's hard to go case-by-case like this...



That's how people make bad choices, they feel they must make the choice. Also, "I must go to one those schools" is a false choice. So let me give you another false choice: Your life may suck for a year while you sit out and retake, but it beats being an unemployed 3L/post grad and looking at your loan balance. Read this thread to see what can (and most likely will) happen if you don't have a job lined up by the end of 2L.


Yeah that's a terrible reason to make a life changing decision.

go teach English in Korea or something if you're really that desperate. It's one year of your life vs. the rest of it.


Hell, go play hockey while teaching English in Korea. Not wanting to stand up to your parents is a terrible reason to do anything, let alone law school.

anneshirley
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby anneshirley » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:29 pm

Goal: Biglaw in Chicago

Regional Ties: Originally from Chicago and Undergrad in Chicago. Immediate family here. Extended all in Michigan (not sure that even matters)

School(s): Accepted to: University of Michigan and Northwestern (no scholarhip info yet) University of Illinois (-75k over 3 years in scholarship), Chicago-Kent (full ride scholarship), Washington University (-105k over 3 years in scholarship).

Other Info: Will be graduating undergrad debt free.

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Bikeflip
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:41 pm

anneshirley wrote:Goal: Biglaw in Chicago

Regional Ties: Originally from Chicago and Undergrad in Chicago. Immediate family here. Extended all in Michigan (not sure that even matters)

School(s): Accepted to: University of Michigan and Northwestern (no scholarhip info yet) University of Illinois (-75k over 3 years in scholarship), Chicago-Kent (full ride scholarship), Washington University (-105k over 3 years in scholarship).

Other Info: Will be graduating undergrad debt free.



Forget Kent. I've heard UMich isn't placing grads into Chicago like they were, but a chunk of that could be self selection. Have you tried to leverage Michigan's offer against Northwestern in an attempt to get Northwestern to give you money?

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BlueLotus
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:54 pm

Why Cardozo=Bad Under Any Circumstances and Temple=Good, when they are similarly ranked (and both located in markets saturated with lawl schools)?

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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby anneshirley » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:01 pm

Bikeflip wrote:
anneshirley wrote:Goal: Biglaw in Chicago

Regional Ties: Originally from Chicago and Undergrad in Chicago. Immediate family here. Extended all in Michigan (not sure that even matters)

School(s): Accepted to: University of Michigan and Northwestern (no scholarhip info yet) University of Illinois (-75k over 3 years in scholarship), Chicago-Kent (full ride scholarship), Washington University (-105k over 3 years in scholarship).

Other Info: Will be graduating undergrad debt free.



Forget Kent. I've heard UMich isn't placing grads into Chicago like they were, but a chunk of that could be self selection. Have you tried to leverage Michigan's offer against Northwestern in an attempt to get Northwestern to give you money?
Last edited by anneshirley on Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.




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