ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:12 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
brianiac16 wrote:Arizona resident. Interested in PI, International, gov't. No ties anywhere. I might be vanilla kJD.
25k to William & Mary w/ STIPS.
Full ride to U Richmond no stips.
Arizona state with 20k no stips and in state
UCLA 20k - big debt definitely, but they have a program on food policy. As far as I've seen it's just UCLA, HLS, and Arkansas that have a program like that - not getting into Harvard and Arkansas just ain't for me.

Mostly want to hear what you all have to say about Richmond and about UCLA with at least 160k debt coming out.

Thanks


Image

Dude, I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think the purpose of this thread is for other 0Ls to come in and make fun of people.

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Dr. Review
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Dr. Review » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:15 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Dude, I appreciate the sentiment, but I don't think the purpose of this thread is for other 0Ls to come in and make fun of people.

Thanks, Nony.
OP wrote:Just to keep the advice as practical as possible, please limit advice posts to post-grads (although jobless 3Ls may have some input).

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ExBiglawAssociate
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:18 pm

yossarian71 wrote:
Bedsole wrote:That said, I won't engage further in this type of discussion, because there are a lot of idiot 0Ls who need me to tell them why their top choice is a shithole, and I'm doing them a disservice by spending time ITT discussing other things.


The Lord's work.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby ManoftheHour » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:18 pm

I deleted the post. Sorry.

Paul Campos
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Paul Campos » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:35 pm

I've made this suggestion a couple of times before and will make it again, as it seems especially germane to this excellent conversation:

Discussions of this type need to take into account as explicitly as possible the likely opportunity cost which will be incurred by the prospective law student. I get emails on a regular basis from people who are making $60K or more in stable jobs featuring good benefits, who are thinking about going to law school. Such people are in a radically different position than people with non-marketable undergrad degrees, working ten dollar an hour retail jobs with no benefits and zero job security.

This is an obvious point, but it's not one of the pieces of information people are asked to provide by the message stickied at the top of the forum.

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John Everyman
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby John Everyman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:39 pm

Finally have numbers to post something legitimate here...

Goals: PI, Family Law, mid boutique, just generally want to practice law near my family in Wisco.
Regional Ties: Family in Minnesota, St. Louis, Wisco, and IL. Very strong legal ties in Wisco and Illinois.
School: Minnesota $95,000 COA - Can probably get it down to 85-80 without too much difficulty.

Thoughts?

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prezidentv8
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:43 pm

John Everyman wrote:Finally have numbers to post something legitimate here...

Goals: PI, Family Law, mid boutique, just generally want to practice law near my family in Wisco.
Regional Ties: Family in Minnesota, St. Louis, Wisco, and IL. Very strong legal ties in Wisco and Illinois.
School: Minnesota $95,000 COA - Can probably get it down to 85-80 without too much difficulty.

Thoughts?


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:44 pm

John Everyman wrote:Finally have numbers to post something legitimate here...

Goals: PI, Family Law, mid boutique, just generally want to practice law near my family in Wisco.
Regional Ties: Family in Minnesota, St. Louis, Wisco, and IL. Very strong legal ties in Wisco and Illinois.
School: Minnesota $95,000 COA - Can probably get it down to 85-80 without too much difficulty.

Thoughts?


You'd be a fool not to try and swing a full out of Wisconsin or Marquette just to get dat sweet sweet diploma privilege. The bar is a good three months you could be out earning money, you want to stay in Wisconsin, and you don't seem to be wedded to biglaw/AIII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diploma_privilege
Last edited by timbs4339 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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John Everyman
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby John Everyman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:45 pm

sad, that one seemed pretty sexy.

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worldtraveler
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:49 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
John Everyman wrote:Finally have numbers to post something legitimate here...

Goals: PI, Family Law, mid boutique, just generally want to practice law near my family in Wisco.
Regional Ties: Family in Minnesota, St. Louis, Wisco, and IL. Very strong legal ties in Wisco and Illinois.
School: Minnesota $95,000 COA - Can probably get it down to 85-80 without too much difficulty.

Thoughts?


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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yossarian
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby yossarian » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:31 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
John Everyman wrote:Finally have numbers to post something legitimate here...

Goals: PI, Family Law, mid boutique, just generally want to practice law near my family in Wisco.
Regional Ties: Family in Minnesota, St. Louis, Wisco, and IL. Very strong legal ties in Wisco and Illinois.
School: Minnesota $95,000 COA - Can probably get it down to 85-80 without too much difficulty.

Thoughts?


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Can we get more info here? Similarly ranked schools have received an approved with 50-75% scholly ranking ITT. Poster doesn't have Big/AIII ambitions, and ~$100k COA is more than 50% scholly. Understand the relative merits of UofWI in poster's position, but interested why UMinn is an emphatic NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

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presh
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby presh » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:32 pm

John Everyman wrote:Finally have numbers to post something legitimate here...

Goals: PI, Family Law, mid boutique, just generally want to practice law near my family in Wisco.
Regional Ties: Family in Minnesota, St. Louis, Wisco, and IL. Very strong legal ties in Wisco and Illinois.
School: Minnesota $95,000 COA - Can probably get it down to 85-80 without too much difficulty.

Thoughts?


Why are you not going to Wisconsin on a full?

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John Everyman
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby John Everyman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:42 pm

presh wrote:
John Everyman wrote:Finally have numbers to post something legitimate here...

Goals: PI, Family Law, mid boutique, just generally want to practice law near my family in Wisco.
Regional Ties: Family in Minnesota, St. Louis, Wisco, and IL. Very strong legal ties in Wisco and Illinois.
School: Minnesota $95,000 COA - Can probably get it down to 85-80 without too much difficulty.

Thoughts?


Why are you not going to Wisconsin on a full?


Haven't heard back from Wisco yet, but I really like the Twin Cities and, whether or not biglaw/midlaw is my ultimate ambition, it seems like UMinn degree offers a bit more versatility overall if I do end up with $$ in my eyes.

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:46 pm

John Everyman wrote:
presh wrote:
John Everyman wrote:Finally have numbers to post something legitimate here...

Goals: PI, Family Law, mid boutique, just generally want to practice law near my family in Wisco.
Regional Ties: Family in Minnesota, St. Louis, Wisco, and IL. Very strong legal ties in Wisco and Illinois.
School: Minnesota $95,000 COA - Can probably get it down to 85-80 without too much difficulty.

Thoughts?


Why are you not going to Wisconsin on a full?


Haven't heard back from Wisco yet, but I really like the Twin Cities and, whether or not biglaw/midlaw is my ultimate ambition, it seems like UMinn degree offers a bit more versatility overall if I do end up with $$ in my eyes.


It offers a marginal biglaw/AIII benefit (~5%), not enough IMO to justify close to 100K in debt when you can go to Wisconsin for free. You'll likely wind up in a similar position from both, and 50K salary with COL debt is much different than 50K salary and 100K in debt (I'm including your bar expenses, some of which you will not have to pay if you take diploma privilege).
Last edited by timbs4339 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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presh
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby presh » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:46 pm

StillCutty wrote:Fair enough, i was being facetious when I said "get rich". I thought it was obvious. I'll have to remember not to rely on anyone's ability to read between the lines on this site.

Yes, I'm trying to make good money. No, I'm not trying to be some insane gajillionaire living on a yacht in Monaco.

In regards to your question, I don't know where I want to practice. I've lived on both coasts, the midwest, and the south. I'm sure I'd be happy working anywhere as long as its in a city. I'd like to have minimal debt and as many options as possible, but would be willing to take on debt if the opportunities available to me upon graduation justify it. I'm trying to figure out if the opportunities from a T14 program like Northwestern or Duke justify the amount of debt I'd have to take on versus going to Texas or any of my other scholarship offers. Lets assume I'll work hard enough to be median+ wherever I go.

Also, what if a joker came up, like an acceptance to U Chicago or NYU or Penn? Will the opportunities afforded to me there be more valuable than graduating debt free at UT or my other offers, in y'alls professional opinion?

Again, thank you.


Okay, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here because I generally do and assume that the condescension and assholery in your posts are unintentional. You came in here and asked us for advice. Don't follow that shit up with posts about us not being nice enough to you or implying that we're too dense to get your awesome sarcasm (no one got it = the problem is you).

For a serious answer, you don't know enough of what you want yet for us to really give you a good answer. "Making good money without working too hard" is not really a thing in law. The high income career path, BIGLaw, requires a high time commitment. You won't see much of those kids you want to have if you do that. Even less well paid positions, like PI, often require a lot of hours.

Outside of the T14, you're probably going to work in whatever area you go to school. So you need to figure out where you want to be in a more concrete sense than thinking you'll be reasonably content anywhere. Have you lived in Texas? Minnesota? New York?

The reason why T14 schools are often considered worth sticker is because they give you the best chance at BIGlaw, but with the debt you'll have you will likely be stuck there even if you later decide it isn't for you. That's why they call it the golden handcuffs.

Of the options you have, in my opinion, the best one is a full ride to UT (I assume this is the Texas you mean). But you should be sure that you like Texas enough to live there and determine how hospitable the local legal communities are to outsiders before you commit.

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John Everyman
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby John Everyman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:52 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
John Everyman wrote:
presh wrote:
John Everyman wrote:Finally have numbers to post something legitimate here...

Goals: PI, Family Law, mid boutique, just generally want to practice law near my family in Wisco.
Regional Ties: Family in Minnesota, St. Louis, Wisco, and IL. Very strong legal ties in Wisco and Illinois.
School: Minnesota $95,000 COA - Can probably get it down to 85-80 without too much difficulty.

Thoughts?


Why are you not going to Wisconsin on a full?


Haven't heard back from Wisco yet, but I really like the Twin Cities and, whether or not biglaw/midlaw is my ultimate ambition, it seems like UMinn degree offers a bit more versatility overall if I do end up with $$ in my eyes.


It offers a marginal biglaw/AIII benefit (~5%), not enough IMO to justify close to 100K in debt when you can go to Wisconsin for free. You'll likely wind up in a similar position from both, and 50K salary with COL debt is much different than 50K salary and 100K in debt (I'm including your bar expenses, some of which you will not have to pay if you take diploma privilege).



I fully understand that position, and my decision would probably be easier if Wisco at full ride was on the table. Unfortunately, I can only give you guys the info I have. So it comes back to it, assuming there is no UW full ride, why is that offer so negative? And when I say I can probably get it down to 85 total, I say it because it literally said in the letter, if I commit, they will raise it 2,500 a year.

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worldtraveler
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:57 pm

yossarian71 wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
John Everyman wrote:Finally have numbers to post something legitimate here...

Goals: PI, Family Law, mid boutique, just generally want to practice law near my family in Wisco.
Regional Ties: Family in Minnesota, St. Louis, Wisco, and IL. Very strong legal ties in Wisco and Illinois.
School: Minnesota $95,000 COA - Can probably get it down to 85-80 without too much difficulty.

Thoughts?


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Can we get more info here? Similarly ranked schools have received an approved with 50-75% scholly ranking ITT. Poster doesn't have Big/AIII ambitions, and ~$100k COA is more than 50% scholly. Understand the relative merits of UofWI in poster's position, but interested why UMinn is an emphatic NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.


Almost $100,000 debt for what will likely be a 50/50 shot at a job that is low paying at best. Do we need to say more?

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John Everyman
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby John Everyman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:59 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Almost $100,000 debt for what will likely be a 50/50 shot at a job that is low paying at best. Do we need to say more?


Alright, alright, sold.

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:02 pm

John Everyman wrote:
I fully understand that position, and my decision would probably be easier if Wisco at full ride was on the table. Unfortunately, I can only give you guys the info I have. So it comes back to it, assuming there is no UW full ride, why is that offer so negative? And when I say I can probably get it down to 85 total, I say it because it literally said in the letter, if I commit, they will raise it 2,500 a year.


85 is on the high end of what I would pay. There is very little difference in employment opportunity between Minnesota and Wisconsin despite the gap in USNWR ranking (a gap that you can use to your advantage).

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RobertGolddust
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby RobertGolddust » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:05 pm

University of Arizona, in state tuition, 10k a year, plus living expenses taken care of by my parents.

Law school goal: work at a top firm in Phoenix and make six figures, or settle for a small private firm and make 70 k. Leave firm at 30, start my own practice, and try to hit a home-run with a huge case.


Doable? Good decision given the cheap price and a soft major?

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Bikeflip
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:06 pm

I'm noticing one thing, and I did this too as a 0L, is the frame of mine shift from saying "In with $30K a year" vs. "in but I'll have to pay at least $140K after the discount." The former makes you feel good about the scholarship; the latter makes the numbers more real. As such, don't look at your scholarship as anything but a discount. Saying "I got 90K off a $230K bill!" still means you have a $140K bill. That's gonna be like $1,600 a month for 10 years. By contrast, a 15 year fixed mortgage for $250,000 (with decent credit & $20K down), can be the same amount, depending on where you live.


As such 0L bros, tell us what you expect to pay back, not how much you're saving.

fatheranderson15
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby fatheranderson15 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:07 pm

Long-time TLS stalker, might as well ask!

Goal(s): Biglaw/midlaw
Regional Ties: NC resident (but not looking to stay here), Southern CA (specifically Orange County; born and raised there, have family and friends there)
School: UCLA with ~75-85k of total debt coming out

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yossarian
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Postby yossarian » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:08 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
Almost $100,000 debt for what will likely be a 50/50 shot at a job that is low paying at best. Do we need to say more?


Makes sense. So, you're thoughts would be that BU/BC/ND would all yield the same emphatic NO citing relatively similar employment outcomes. (all ~65% LST scores)

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:08 pm

RobertGolddust wrote:University of Arizona, in state tuition, 10k a year, plus living expenses taken care of by my parents.

Law school goal: work at a top firm in Phoenix and make six figures, or settle for a small private firm and make 70 k. Leave firm at 30, start my own practice, and try to hit a home-run with a huge case.


Doable? Good decision given the cheap price and a soft major?


Your goals seem unrealistic (biglaw is low probability, very few small firms start at 70K, most will pay you something around 40-50K), but the price isn't. What are your current non-law job options?

EDIT: You are not going to hit a home-run in PI law at such an early stage without a huge investment and ad budget. It just doesn't happen with so much competition from established lawyers. Real life is not like The Rainmaker.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Bikeflip
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:12 pm

RobertGolddust wrote: University of Arizona, in state tuition, 10k a year, plus living expenses taken care of by my parents.

Law school goal: work at a top firm in Phoenix and make six figures, or settle for a small private firm and make 70 k. Leave firm at 30, start my own practice, and try to hit a home-run with a huge case.


Doable? Good decision given the cheap price and a soft major?


So you're looking at $18,000 a year after books and tuition increases, possibly more after fees and other piddly things. Ideally $60,000-$70,000 in loans, but a 12% shot at biglaw? And if you miss biglaw you're more likely to start at $45-50K? Plus you wanna jump from big law to solo, but you have no plan as to how to get trial skills in big law, where many attorneys will never see the inside of a courtroom? Plus you wanna get one big torts case or similar to retire young? Your goals' are not really doable and not really a good decision both questions.




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