ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

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StillCutty
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby StillCutty » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:07 pm

rad lulz wrote:
StillCutty wrote:Goal is to get rich and not die trying.

Don't go to law school


Are you saying going to law school to get rich is stupid or the not dying part isn't feasible?

I don't care about living a luxurious lifestyle. I do care about having several children and being able to provide them with all the educational opportunities and life experiences I was fortunate enough to receive from my parents.

Either answer the question sincerely or don't. No need to behave like an ass towards someone you don't know.

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worldtraveler
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:52 pm

StillCutty wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
StillCutty wrote:Goal is to get rich and not die trying.

Don't go to law school


Are you saying going to law school to get rich is stupid or the not dying part isn't feasible?

I don't care about living a luxurious lifestyle. I do care about having several children and being able to provide them with all the educational opportunities and life experiences I was fortunate enough to receive from my parents.

Either answer the question sincerely or don't. No need to behave like an ass towards someone you don't know.


You came in a thread and asked for advice. He gave you advice.

Don't go to law school. If you want to support several kids, your options will not likely make that happen.

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sandwich
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby sandwich » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:09 pm

StillCutty wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
StillCutty wrote:Goal is to get rich and not die trying.

Don't go to law school


Are you saying going to law school to get rich is stupid or the not dying part isn't feasible?

I don't care about living a luxurious lifestyle. I do care about having several children and being able to provide them with all the educational opportunities and life experiences I was fortunate enough to receive from my parents.

Either answer the question sincerely or don't. No need to behave like an ass towards someone you don't know.


To be fair, I kind of assumed that this thread would just be 8 pages of "don't go to law school" copy/pasted over and over...

But seriously, guys, this is a great thread. It's a rare resource to have people out in the workforce not only giving advice but, more importantly, taking the time to consider individual circumstances and then giving their opinion on what a reasonable price for a given school might be. Really helps contextualize the process, so much of TLS (unintentionally) comes off as black or white.

Awesome. Thanks for doing this!

StillCutty
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby StillCutty » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:09 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
StillCutty wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
StillCutty wrote:Goal is to get rich and not die trying.

Don't go to law school


Are you saying going to law school to get rich is stupid or the not dying part isn't feasible?

I don't care about living a luxurious lifestyle. I do care about having several children and being able to provide them with all the educational opportunities and life experiences I was fortunate enough to receive from my parents.

Either answer the question sincerely or don't. No need to behave like an ass towards someone you don't know.


You came in a thread and asked for advice. He gave you advice.

Don't go to law school. If you want to support several kids, your options will not likely make that happen.


Curious to know if you have any actual reasoning behind saying my options make my goals "not likely" because I find that hard believe.

This thread was started soliciting people's offers so that a list could be made. I guess I didn't realize it was a roll of the dice regarding how disingenuous the responses might be.

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prezidentv8
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby prezidentv8 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:13 pm

StillCutty wrote:wondering if anyone has a compelling reason to take something like Texas debt free over ~175k debt at a T14.

Thank you


I can think of at least 175,000 reasons.

smallbrownbear
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby smallbrownbear » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:29 pm

Expecting a lot of blowback from this, but I'm genuinely curious:

What kind of price tag makes a place like hawaii feasible? Some info: My wife and I have to move there anyways to take care of her parents. I am a <3.0/170+ applicant, so I basically applied to the top 20 (thinking we would probably not have to move fr a few years) and got gulc and wustl so far. But it turned out we have to move much sooner than anticipated, so I applied to UH and got in, so the choices are not going anywhere or going to UH. I'd have no COL loans and i'd be fine working small/shit law if I can make a decent living. I have no idea what kind of scholarship, if any, I'd get. I also have no idea how long we'd stay in hawaii... I would guess anywhere from 5 years to forever. But at least a few years, likely a few years after I would graduate from school.

Given that I am moving there anyways, won't have COL loans, and am not gunning for biglaw, what amount of loans is reasonable? I'm also fine moving and then NOT going to UH and finding another job, instead, if honestly nothing makes UH a good choice.

Thank you boys/girls for a killer thread

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:30 pm

StillCutty wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
StillCutty wrote:Are you saying going to law school to get rich is stupid or the not dying part isn't feasible?

I don't care about living a luxurious lifestyle. I do care about having several children and being able to provide them with all the educational opportunities and life experiences I was fortunate enough to receive from my parents.

Either answer the question sincerely or don't. No need to behave like an ass towards someone you don't know.


You came in a thread and asked for advice. He gave you advice.

Don't go to law school. If you want to support several kids, your options will not likely make that happen.


Curious to know if you have any actual reasoning behind saying my options make my goals "not likely" because I find that hard believe.

This thread was started soliciting people's offers so that a list could be made. I guess I didn't realize it was a roll of the dice regarding how disingenuous the responses might be.

Just because the response was brief doesn't make it disingenuous. I'm quite sure rad was entirely sincere. And coming in with "get rich" as a goal sounds completely different from "support a family," so it's not surprising you got the answer you did.

I also love how even when the thread requires someone to post voluntarily asking for advice, and promises the posters will tell you why your top choice sucks, people pull the same "you're not answering my question" routine as in threads they create.

As for your proposed schools, where do you want to practice? The schools where you have money are all over the country.

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worldtraveler
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:35 pm

smallbrownbear wrote:Expecting a lot of blowback from this, but I'm genuinely curious:

What kind of price tag makes a place like hawaii feasible? Some info: My wife and I have to move there anyways to take care of her parents. I am a <3.0/170+ applicant, so I basically applied to the top 20 (thinking we would probably not have to move fr a few years) and got gulc and wustl so far. But it turned out we have to move much sooner than anticipated, so I applied to UH and got in, so the choices are not going anywhere or going to UH. I'd have no COL loans and i'd be fine working small/shit law if I can make a decent living. I have no idea what kind of scholarship, if any, I'd get. I also have no idea how long we'd stay in hawaii... I would guess anywhere from 5 years to forever. But at least a few years, likely a few years after I would graduate from school.

Given that I am moving there anyways, won't have COL loans, and am not gunning for biglaw, what amount of loans is reasonable? I'm also fine moving and then NOT going to UH and finding another job, instead, if honestly nothing makes UH a good choice.

Thank you boys/girls for a killer thread


My advice would be to move there, get yourself in-state tuition, and contact some attorneys to find out what they think. I wouldn't want more than maybe 40-50k of debt from there.

Hawaii is a pretty insular market so whether you are a native Hawaiian might also play a role (although it sounds like you have some pretty close ties).

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Bikeflip
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:49 pm

StillCutty wrote:
StillCutty wrote:Goal is to get rich and not die trying.

Curious to know if you have any actual reasoning behind saying my options make my goals "not likely" because I find that hard believe.

This thread was started soliciting people's offers so that a list could be made. I guess I didn't realize it was a roll of the dice regarding how disingenuous the responses might be.


You goal is to get rich and not die trying, your emphasis. That's a lofty and ill-defined goal. Ever heard of the billable hour? Ever heard of the up or out Cravath system & how hard it is to make partner? There's a far better chance of washing out than making it as a big law partner. Hence,
rad lulz wrote:Don't go to law school


If you just want to get rich and not die trying, again your emphasis, there are easier paths than law school. Now if you want to be a lawyer and you want to keep your costs down, I'd seriously look at that Texas offer. Maybe WUSTL, but I'll let their alumni go more in depth about that one. Finally see if you can play Northwestern and Cornell against one another so they give you some money.

Also Bedsole, I'd put both Denver Law and Colorado Law in the free to near free category, with the stipulation that 0Ls have no expectations of biglaw from either.

smallbrownbear
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby smallbrownbear » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:57 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
My advice would be to move there, get yourself in-state tuition, and contact some attorneys to find out what they think. I wouldn't want more than maybe 40-50k of debt from there.

Hawaii is a pretty insular market so whether you are a native Hawaiian might also play a role (although it sounds like you have some pretty close ties).


Thanks for your response! I'm honestly a little surprised to hear you say 40-50k in debt, that's actually a lot higher than I would have thought, but then again, I don't know anything about real-world hiring/job outcomes and even less about hawaii in particular. I will take your advice and contact some attorneys, that's a good idea. I appreciate the input!

StillCutty
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby StillCutty » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:00 pm

Fair enough, i was being facetious when I said "get rich". I thought it was obvious. I'll have to remember not to rely on anyone's ability to read between the lines on this site.

Yes, I'm trying to make good money. No, I'm not trying to be some insane gajillionaire living on a yacht in Monaco.

In regards to your question, I don't know where I want to practice. I've lived on both coasts, the midwest, and the south. I'm sure I'd be happy working anywhere as long as its in a city. I'd like to have minimal debt and as many options as possible, but would be willing to take on debt if the opportunities available to me upon graduation justify it. I'm trying to figure out if the opportunities from a T14 program like Northwestern or Duke justify the amount of debt I'd have to take on versus going to Texas or any of my other scholarship offers. Lets assume I'll work hard enough to be median+ wherever I go.

Also, what if a joker came up, like an acceptance to U Chicago or NYU or Penn? Will the opportunities afforded to me there be more valuable than graduating debt free at UT or my other offers, in y'alls professional opinion?

Again, thank you.

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Dr. Review
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Dr. Review » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:11 pm

reasonable_man wrote:Whoa Bedsole - you left me out brother - you know I'm always up for this! :lol:

Your name was in the OP prior to the first edit. In any event, the OP is updated with a fuller list.
Nony, you ready to pounce?

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:16 pm

StillCutty wrote:Fair enough, i was being facetious when I said "get rich". I thought it was obvious. I'll have to remember not to rely on anyone's ability to read between the lines on this site.

Yes, I'm trying to make good money. No, I'm not trying to be some insane gajillionaire living on a yacht in Monaco.

In regards to your question, I don't know where I want to practice. I've lived on both coasts, the midwest, and the south. I'm sure I'd be happy working anywhere as long as its in a city. I'd like to have minimal debt and as many options as possible, but would be willing to take on debt if the opportunities available to me upon graduation justify it. I'm trying to figure out if the opportunities from a T14 program like Northwestern or Duke justify the amount of debt I'd have to take on versus going to Texas or any of my other scholarship offers. Lets assume I'll work hard enough to be median+ wherever I go.

Also, what if a joker came up, like an acceptance to U Chicago or NYU or Penn? Will the opportunities afforded to me there be more valuable than graduating debt free at UT or my other offers, in y'alls professional opinion?

Again, thank you.


What do you define as good money? You're probably not going to be making much more than the average 40 hr a week office drone at least for the first few years of practice. Solidly middle-class is how I'd put it.

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:17 pm

smallbrownbear wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
My advice would be to move there, get yourself in-state tuition, and contact some attorneys to find out what they think. I wouldn't want more than maybe 40-50k of debt from there.

Hawaii is a pretty insular market so whether you are a native Hawaiian might also play a role (although it sounds like you have some pretty close ties).


Thanks for your response! I'm honestly a little surprised to hear you say 40-50k in debt, that's actually a lot higher than I would have thought, but then again, I don't know anything about real-world hiring/job outcomes and even less about hawaii in particular. I will take your advice and contact some attorneys, that's a good idea. I appreciate the input!


Search this site too, especially the Choosing and Legal Employment forums. There's a few threads on Hawaii and from what I understand it's extremely insular since a lot of the firms are local/family affairs.

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:19 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
StillCutty wrote:wondering if anyone has a compelling reason to take something like Texas debt free over ~175k debt at a T14.

Thank you


I can think of at least 175,000 reasons.


If you absolutely want to work in Texas and you wouldn't mind working small law or in the state government or for a PI organization, then there's no reason to take on the debt.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dr. Review
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Dr. Review » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:20 pm

StillCutty wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
StillCutty wrote:Goal is to get rich and not die trying.

Don't go to law school


Are you saying going to law school to get rich is stupid or the not dying part isn't feasible?

I don't care about living a luxurious lifestyle. I do care about having several children and being able to provide them with all the educational opportunities and life experiences I was fortunate enough to receive from my parents.

Either answer the question sincerely or don't. No need to behave like an ass towards someone you don't know.

Most law schools aren't worth attending unless you can attend them for free, and even then, a large number are not worth attending. IMO, attending a law school is a combination of a financial investment decision and a desire to enter a particular career based on professional goals related to your interests. If law school is a calculated decision designed solely or primarily to assure financial security, then most practitioners are going to tell you that you will hate it and/or that you shouldn't go.

That said, I won't engage further in this type of discussion, because there are a lot of idiot 0Ls who need me to tell them why their top choice is a shithole, and I'm doing them a disservice by spending time ITT discussing other things.

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yossarian
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby yossarian » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:23 pm

Bedsole wrote:That said, I won't engage further in this type of discussion, because there are a lot of idiot 0Ls who need me to tell them why their top choice is a shithole, and I'm doing them a disservice by spending time ITT discussing other things.


The Lord's work.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:25 pm

StillCutty wrote:Fair enough, i was being facetious when I said "get rich". I thought it was obvious. I'll have to remember not to rely on anyone's ability to read between the lines on this site.
It's not so much that people here can't read between the lines, it's that people regularly show up here who want to go to law school to make a bazillion dollars.
Bedsole wrote:Nony, you ready to pounce?
Sure, though it would have to be "do as I say, not as I do." :lol: (well, sort of. I should have retaken/paid less for my school, but at least I did not do the equivalent of paying sticker to go to St. John's, for instance.)

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Bikeflip
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:25 pm

StillCutty wrote:
In regards to your question, I don't know where I want to practice. I've lived on both coasts, the midwest, and the south. I'm sure I'd be happy working anywhere as long as its in a city. I'd like to have minimal debt and as many options as possible, but would be willing to take on debt if the opportunities available to me upon graduation justify it. I'm trying to figure out if the opportunities from a T14 program like Northwestern or Duke justify the amount of debt I'd have to take on versus going to Texas or any of my other scholarship offers. Lets assume I'll work hard enough to be median+ wherever I go.

Also, what if a joker came up, like an acceptance to U Chicago or NYU or Penn? Will the opportunities afforded to me there be more valuable than graduating debt free at UT or my other offers, in y'alls professional opinion?

Again, thank you.


Fair response, brew. So it sounds like you have weak ties everywhere, which may throw a wrench in Texas. I'll let anyone from Texas chew on whether UT out of state is a good idea, scholarship or not. From what I've heard, the state of Texas has a decent big law market, assuming you want to live in Dallas or Houston.

The reason why a bunch of us are cautious even about attending good law schools at sticker is b/c we're paying back our loans or watching our loan balances grow while we're in IBR/PAYE. Seeing $1,500-$2,500 of every month's paycheck leave gets old really fast. And that's assuming you're lucky enough to have a job where you can afford to pay back your $1,500-$2,500 monthly payment. Even then, we know a large chunk of us in big law will not be in big law 5 years from now, but our loans will still be due. Losing a $160,000+ a yr job and still having to pay back $1,500-$2,500 a month becomes terrifying. Not having the loans gives you options.

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:37 pm

Bikeflip wrote:Seeing $1,500-$2,500 of every month's paycheck leave gets old really fast.


I cannot overstate this. It's just numbers on a page now. You'll be paying 70-80% of your income in a few years. That's why minimizing debt is so key.

brianiac16
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby brianiac16 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:01 pm

Arizona resident. Interested in PI, International, gov't. No ties anywhere. I might be vanilla kJD.
25k to William & Mary w/ STIPS.
Full ride to U Richmond no stips.
Arizona state with 20k no stips and in state
UCLA 20k - big debt definitely, but they have a program on food policy. As far as I've seen it's just UCLA, HLS, and Arkansas that have a program like that - not getting into Harvard and Arkansas just ain't for me.

Mostly want to hear what you all have to say about Richmond and about UCLA with at least 160k debt coming out.

Thanks

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worldtraveler
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby worldtraveler » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:05 pm

brianiac16 wrote:Arizona resident. Interested in PI, International, gov't. No ties anywhere. I might be vanilla kJD.
25k to William & Mary w/ STIPS.
Full ride to U Richmond no stips.
Arizona state with 20k no stips and in state
UCLA 20k - big debt definitely, but they have a program on food policy. As far as I've seen it's just UCLA, HLS, and Arkansas that have a program like that - not getting into Harvard and Arkansas just ain't for me.

Mostly want to hear what you all have to say about Richmond and about UCLA with at least 160k debt coming out.

Thanks


No to all of them for your goals.

timbs4339
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:06 pm

brianiac16 wrote:Arizona resident. Interested in PI, International, gov't. No ties anywhere. I might be vanilla kJD.
25k to William & Mary w/ STIPS.
Full ride to U Richmond no stips.
Arizona state with 20k no stips and in state
UCLA 20k - big debt definitely, but they have a program on food policy. As far as I've seen it's just UCLA, HLS, and Arkansas that have a program like that - not getting into Harvard and Arkansas just ain't for me.

Mostly want to hear what you all have to say about Richmond and about UCLA with at least 160k debt coming out.

Thanks


I'm assuming those are annual scholly totals.

Without work experience, the specialty program is going to mean jack. Worldtraveler can give you better information on the international law goals, but it's a very hard field to break into and just not something I recommend K-JDs bank on. As for your options, it seems like Arizona State would be the best. The have better PI placement then Richmond, you might be able to do a lot of immigration work, and you already have ties if you're a resident.

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Dr. Review
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby Dr. Review » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:09 pm

brianiac16 wrote:Arizona resident. Interested in PI, International, gov't. No ties anywhere. I might be vanilla kJD.
25k to William & Mary w/ STIPS.
Full ride to U Richmond no stips.
Arizona state with 20k no stips and in state
UCLA 20k - big debt definitely, but they have a program on food policy. As far as I've seen it's just UCLA, HLS, and Arkansas that have a program like that - not getting into Harvard and Arkansas just ain't for me.

Mostly want to hear what you all have to say about Richmond and about UCLA with at least 160k debt coming out.

Thanks

No ties anywhere? I would think you have ties to Arizona, what with living there and all.
No to W&M from Arizona, especially with stips.
No to U Richmond... for any reason.
No to Arizona State with well over 100k total debt load.
No to specialty programs.
No to UCLA with no Cali ties and ESPECIALLY big debt.
Last edited by Dr. Review on Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: ITT: Practicing attorneys tell you your top choice is bad

Postby ManoftheHour » Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:09 pm

Edited. Sorry. :(
Last edited by ManoftheHour on Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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