FSU, UF or W&M?

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sublime
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby sublime » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:53 pm

..

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:54 pm

SailorMoon9543 wrote:
TheSpanishMain wrote:
SailorMoon9543 wrote:
You're right -- it's fine to give me an opinion. But when I've already said five different times that I'm not retaking, it's time to stop. And your analogy is just not true. FSU and UF are great schools and repaying the debt one will incur is definitely worth it if they want it bad enough. I'm not going to rehash everything that I've already said. I get annoyed when people argue just to argue. It's pointless and not productive. And if you don't see that's what many people are doing, then you're blind.


Can you make UF/FSU at sticker work? Sure. It's possible. It's just that you're needlessly making it harder on yourself. It's not necessarily a death sentence; it's just way more difficult than it needs to be. The effort required to break into the 160s on the LSAT is about 1/1000th of the effort required to pay off 100,000+ in debt on a 50k a year starting salary.

That said, let's acknowledge that you're not retaking. I think it's the wrong call, but it's your decision to make, so I won't bug you about it any more. In that case, my suggestion is to go to FSU, live as cheaply as possible, and try to use the UF acceptance and Miami scholarship to wring SOME money out of them, even if it's a pittance.

timbs4339
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:58 pm

SailorMoon9543 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
SailorMoon9543 wrote:


Law school is known for exacerbating anxiety disorders and pairing them with other stuff like substance abuse.


Bullshit.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/us/lawyer ... ?hpt=hp_t2
http://apps.americanbar.org/abapubs/lrc/pdfs/stress.pdf
http://www.law.fsu.edu/academic_program ... njamin.pdf[/quote]


Omg, don't throw a story about suicide at me. I'm not suicidal. Every high level profession has stress. Did you ever think that my experience with counseling etc. would actually make me more equipped to deal with it than others? No where in the article does it say that law school "exacerbates anxiety disorders". It just says that being an attorney is stressful. Don't play with their words to make them fit your argument.[/quote]

I'm not "throwing" a suicide story at you because I think you're suicidal. I'm telling you that the stress creates a serious mix of psychological issues that is unique to the legal profession. Lawyers have much higher rates of suicide, substance abuse, depression, and anxiety than the general public and even other professions. This is a serious problem that the bar has known about for a very long time and is only now beginning to address.

At the very least, before you commit to anything you need to seek out more information and to discuss these things with a professional and people who can tell you about the unique kind of stress that lawyers face. It's not just like a really hard class from undergrad, it's literally a completely different kind of stress. I'm not trying to bullishit you; I see this every single day.

Here's another good article summarizing the research. Read the first few pages. Remember, 1) these problems are not preexisting- they develop and get worse when students enter law school, and 2) they are worse than other graduate schools or professional schools.

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/ ... ext=yjhple
Last edited by timbs4339 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:00 pm

SailorMoon9543 wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:
You're assuming I don't understand that grading curves and rankings effect placement because I said that I have anxiety?


That's not what I said at all. What I assume is that you can't be sure your anxiety won't attack when law school exams come around as well. Can you really be sure that your anxiety is LSAT-specific?

My anxiety has been much better in the last few months( finally seeing a counselor has really helped).


If this is true, why not give the LSAT one last shot just to see if you can finally conquer it and save yourself thousands of dollars? You can do whatever you like, and ultimately UF/FSU for cheap is your best option out of these. But if I were you, I would give the LSAT one last shot and see if I could finally conquer it. I hate leaving money on the table if I think I have a reasonable shot at taking it.


Trust me, it's very frustrating knowing that I could do better. Looking at my score and seeing that AGAIN I had missed the first 10 or so questions in the first section and done great on the rest of the test definitely sucked. Point is: I just can't bring myself to take it again. I didn't post to get a lecture on retaking the LSAT. I would like opinions on what options I have right now.


Your logic is puzzling. You know you could do better, you are presumably aware of the massive and nearly limitless benefits that retaking can yield (for someone with a good GPA like yourself), and you recognize that the conditions which caused you to fail the first two times are no longer present. You essentially have free money on the table, and all it will cost you to take it is sitting through a four hour exam.

Fact is, 1L exams are every bit as stressful (if not more stressful) than the LSAT. Unlike the LSAT, which is objective, predictable, and very learnable, law school exams are unpredictable to the point of feeling arbitrary (especially in 1L). Unlike the LSAT, which has no entrance standards, in law school you are competing against your academic peers: people who all came with similar LSATs and GPAs. Unlike the LSAT, which is just one four-hour test, in law school you're studying for three or four multi-hour tests. Bottom line: if you think you will magically overcome test anxiety in a 1L classroom, you're gonna have a bad time.

I'm actually trying to be real with you because I sense your frustration and totally identify with it, as do many members of this forum. We've been there, we know, retaking sucks and it's actually the last thing you want to do. Thing is, law school (and being a lawyer) is going to require us to do a lot of stuff that's hard and shitty and we won't want to do it. That sucks, but it's part of the job. If you can't accept that then you might want to rethink being a lawyer.

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cron1834
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby cron1834 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:02 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:Your logic is puzzling. You know you could do better, you are presumably aware of the massive and nearly limitless benefits that retaking can yield (for someone with a good GPA like yourself), and you recognize that the conditions which caused you to fail the first two times are no longer present. You essentially have free money on the table, and all it will cost you to take it is sitting through a four hour exam.

Fact is, 1L exams are every bit as stressful (if not more stressful) than the LSAT. Unlike the LSAT, which is objective, predictable, and very learnable, law school exams are unpredictable to the point of feeling arbitrary (especially in 1L). Unlike the LSAT, which has no entrance standards, in law school you are competing against your academic peers: people who all came with similar LSATs and GPAs. Unlike the LSAT, which is just one four-hour test, in law school you're studying for three or four multi-hour tests. Bottom line: if you think you will magically overcome test anxiety in a 1L classroom, you're gonna have a bad time.

I'm actually trying to be real with you because I sense your frustration and totally identify with it, as do many members of this forum. We've been there, we know, retaking sucks and it's actually the last thing you want to do. Thing is, law school (and being a lawyer) is going to require us to do a lot of stuff that's hard and shitty and we won't want to do it. That sucks, but it's part of the job. If you can't accept that then you might want to rethink being a lawyer.


This computes.

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KatyMarie
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby KatyMarie » Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:23 pm

SailorMoon9543 wrote:Again, this is not helpful. Posters like you who intentionally try to make people feel bad (does it make you feel better somehow?) about their performance in law school and general outlook on life are why many people stay off of threads and forums. If you want to be an ass, go somewhere else. As I've said many times, I want opinions on my current options. Anything else is not welcome.


I don't think anyone is trying to make you feel bad, I really don't, just trying to help you see that you do have a much better 3rd option. As the cycle goes on, I regret more and more not retaking my 169, and I have some good choices for law school. With retaking the LSAT, you pay such a small amount of money and time to improve your acceptance chances and scholarship money so significantly. Everyone on TLS was telling me to retake to catch my score up to my GPA and I didn't listen and wish I had.

No one is saying you need to retake until you can go to Harvard, but you should give yourself a fighting chance in this legal market! If you do decide to just go to a school that doesn't place well anyway, I'd just stay as close to home as possible, and spend the least amount of money possible. That way you'll have connections and a support network. And when you're paying back your student debt, you'll be in a little better shape if you can't find a job for a while.

BigZuck
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:45 pm

As someone who took the LSAT 3 times AND has taken law school exams I feel I am uniquely qualified in saying that law school exams are significantly more stressful than the LSAT. If you crumple under that pressure then you will surely be destroyed come finals time. Also, your competition is just as smart as you, so that sucks.

Anyway, since your LSAT struggles are supposedly behind you and you're going to law school regardless, why not retake in June and squeeze out those extra points and squeeze out some fatty cash from the school of your choice? It's a free roll with no downside. I did just that two years ago, had a substantial jump, and scored high enough to make it worthwhile to sit out and reapply to better schools. I went from UC Hastings at sticker to Duke and Cornell with a 90K scholarship. It was literally life changing. Even if you don't want to sit out a cycle, at least cop those extra points and get some free money from whereever you're going to attend anyway. If you're too lazy to take a 4 hour exam that could literally alter the course of your life for the significantly better and has no downside (other than the cost of the test and 4 hours of your time) then I don't see you ever succeeding with anything in your entire life. I'm not trolling you or trying to be mean, I say that as dispassionately as possible and with full sincerity. Sometimes things that are worth achieving/possessing in this life are tough to get and you have to exert a little effort.

03152016
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby 03152016 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:31 pm

timbs4339 wrote:Realize you might be making a terrible choice.
Evaluate whether you can achieve your goals with your current score.
Trust the experienced lawyers and law students who understand this process better than you do.
Accept their advice to give yourself the best chance to achieve your goals.
Kill your next LSAT sitting.
Enjoy a lot of money from current schools or significantly better job prospects at different ones.

180

envisciguy
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby envisciguy » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:44 am

As someone who had very mild stress during the LSAT and then crippling anxiety as 1L finals rolled around, I can definitely confirm what others are saying about law school exacerbating anxiety issues. I don't think I've ever been that stressed and overwhelmed in my life. Just a heads up with regards to that.

As an actual answer to the OP though, go to FSU. W&M makes no sense out of state with higher tuition and less ties. FSU and UF are decent schools (note: not great) and I know people from FSU that became public defenders. If that's the kind of thing you're looking for and you have in-state tuition, have fun in Tallahassee.

Edit: Note that if the question were different I would suggest retaking a 3rd time, but since you're committed to one of those 3, take FSU.

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JCougar
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby JCougar » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:28 am

SailorMoon9543 wrote: I have an anxiety disorder. I have for the last few years ever since I was home alone and my house was broken into. Stress brings the anxiety on. The LSAT made this stress worse and definitely contributed to my score not being as high as it could have. Taking it over is really NOT an option for me. If you have any advice besides telling me to retake, you're welcome to give it.


I'm not trying to be a dick, either. But your anxiety disorder is all the more reason to retake. Better to suffer through one additional administration of the LSAT that could allow you to get into much better schools--than suffer through dozens of law exams knowing you have to score in the top 10% to get a decent job. Try and get into a school where you can get a decent job by only scoring in the top 40% of the class or so, and the anxiety will be less.

Trust me, the anxiety you face while in law school is 100 times worse than the LSAT. I had anxiety problems significantly hinder my LSAT score the first two times I took it, but on the third try hit my target score/practice test median.




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