FSU, UF or W&M?

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SailorMoon9543
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FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby SailorMoon9543 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:26 pm

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:43 pm

The answer is likely retake, but here goes:

More context is needed here. What would the total costs of attendance be for all the options? Where do you want to work?

I'm of the opinion (some may disagree) that W&M, UF or FSU are all potentially fine choices at the right price and with the right goals. W&M is primarily going to place people in Virginia, with a few spilling over into DC and maybe the Carolinas. UF/FSU are going to place people almost exclusively in Florida. All are going to provide a relatively poor chance at BigLaw, if that's your goal. If you're looking at small/midlaw or state/local government, your chances are much better...but your starting salary will be lower, so good luck paying off the debt without scholarships. Where do you see yourself? What do you want to do, career wise? Do you have any ties to Virginia?

That said, you shouldn't pay sticker at any of these schools. If your numbers don't qualify you for hefty scholarships, then you should retake or not go.

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SailorMoon9543
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby SailorMoon9543 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:58 pm

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:07 pm

SailorMoon9543 wrote:"Retake" is not a helpful comment. I respect your opinion, but not everyone considers having a full ride the end all be all for attending law school. If studying law is someone's dream, they will pay the $ to do it.


If studying law is someone's dream, they will pay six figures to do it. However, they won't spend four hours to retake a standardized test. That's ridiculous, especially since you were scoring much better in your PTs. You do realize how much money a few more points would save you, right? And how much more comfortable you'd be after law school as a result?

It's your call. I think retaking is the most rational thing to do, but you're the one who is going to have to pay off the debt. All of these options are regional. W&M is probably the better school, but it's really going to come down to where do you want to live? If it's in Florida, go to whichever ends up being cheaper between UF/FSU. If it's in Virginia, go to W&M if you get in.

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Ramius
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby Ramius » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:22 pm

If studying law is someone's dream, they will pay the $ to do it.


Why is this your goal? Shouldn't your goal be to practice law, preferably in a certain practice area?

Don't limit yourself and your options and don't be so short-sighted about your actual goals. If your goals are to work for the government in FL, UF/FSU for as cheap as possible is TCR. But you can't simply look at tuition as the potential cost, as you also have to remember your cost of living, which will easily double that yearly figure. So UF/FSU at sticker would be ~$120k+ interest easily when it's all said and done. Compare that with a retake and likely improvement with further study: a couple hundred bucks and a year to work and save up money.

Please remember that you're trying to build a career here, not just continue your education. The best way to build your career is to start it off on the right foot. Rushing into law school because you can't wait at the potential cost of thousands of dollars and the best chance for your desired outcome would be a horrible mistake.

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Nova
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby Nova » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:50 pm

Forget W&M because you don't have ties to Virginia and its way too expensive. Virginia is too saturated for an outsider unless youre attending UVA.

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SailorMoon9543
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby SailorMoon9543 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:10 pm

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Ramius
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby Ramius » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:15 pm

SailorMoon9543 wrote:
Nova wrote:Forget W&M because you don't have ties to Virginia and its way too expensive. Virginia is too saturated for an outsider unless youre attending UVA.


Thanks. This is the kind of advice that I want (not just telling me to retake the LSAT and wait a year). Why does it matter if I have ties in Virginia before I go to law school? Do you mean to say that there are many students who will already have a firm/job picked out before they even start law school? I mean, I have volunteered with an attorney who owns his own firm in Orlando and know a few lawyers around my home town from family connections etc. But I wouldn't think it would make that big of a difference once I move to attend law school in regards to job placement.


This is because hiring for regional schools is mostly colloquial, so coming in as an outsider would leave those looking to hire you as skeptical because they might assume you're going to bolt elsewhere at the first opportunity. Going to a regional school with no ties to the region often puts you at a distinct disadvantage. Also understand that you can't easily get VA residency being a student. In fact, very few are actually able to do this, so you should budget for that fact. Hence, W&M is definitely out without significant, significant scholarships.

UF/FSU are definitely best suited for your desires, but be prepared to stay in FL. I still think taking the time to retake would be far more valuable than starting school next year, but if you absolutely refuse to wait, go to whichever of UF/FSU is cheaper including your cost of living and tuition.

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SailorMoon9543
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby SailorMoon9543 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:17 pm

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:28 pm

Please understand I'm not trying to be an asshole here. This isn't intended to make fun of you or suggest that your anxiety isn't legit.

That said, how do you plan on coping with this during law school? People who say, "I can't retake the LSAT because I get nervous/I'm just not good at tests" often leave me wondering how they're going to handle law school, given that, not unlike the LSAT, you have a LOT riding on tests.

Anyway, I would stay in Florida. W&M is a good school at the right price, but it's not so good as to justify the cost of moving and paying out of state tuition. I'm more skeptical than most of the concept of "ties" (the areas of Virginia with legal markets are pretty cosmopolitan and used to transplants. This isn't Nome, Alaska or something.) but it's still going to come up in conversation and you have no real compelling reason as to why you'd want to stay in Virginia.

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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby Turtledove » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:29 pm

I don't mean this to sound callous but you should keep in mind that law school exams are every bit as stressful as the LSAT (particularly as a 1L) and if you have trouble with these sorts of exams it will be very difficult to secure legal employment.

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Winston1984
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby Winston1984 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:31 pm

SailorMoon9543 wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:
If studying law is someone's dream, they will pay the $ to do it.


Why is this your goal? Shouldn't your goal be to practice law, preferably in a certain practice area?

Don't limit yourself and your options and don't be so short-sighted about your actual goals. If your goals are to work for the government in FL, UF/FSU for as cheap as possible is TCR. But you can't simply look at tuition as the potential cost, as you also have to remember your cost of living, which will easily double that yearly figure. So UF/FSU at sticker would be ~$120k+ interest easily when it's all said and done. Compare that with a retake and likely improvement with further study: a couple hundred bucks and a year to work and save up money.

Please remember that you're trying to build a career here, not just continue your education. The best way to build your career is to start it off on the right foot. Rushing into law school because you can't wait at the potential cost of thousands of dollars and the best chance for your desired outcome would be a horrible mistake.


Let's not argue semantics here. I didn't mean that literally STUDYING law is my dream. Obviously, it's the options that a JD gives you that is "the dream" (which you must study to attain). I realize how much debt I will be in. I'm not an idiot; obviously that includes COL. I don't need a math lesson. As for the LSAT, I have already taken the test twice. I really wasn't planning on sharing so much personal info, but here it goes: I have an anxiety disorder. I have for the last few years ever since I was home alone and my house was broken into. Stress brings the anxiety on. The LSAT made this stress worse and definitely contributed to my score not being as high as it could have. Taking it over is really NOT an option for me. If you have any advice besides telling me to retake, you're welcome to give it.


Won't you also get serious anxiety during law school exams? You do know that grades are by far the biggest determining factor of getting a job/high quality job right?

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SailorMoon9543
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby SailorMoon9543 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:38 pm

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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby cron1834 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:49 pm

So you have no reason to believe that a second LSAT would be as anxiety-producing, then? That's what you are implying. But you deny the logical consequence.

Does not compute.

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SailorMoon9543
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby SailorMoon9543 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:52 pm

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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby sublime » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:54 pm

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Ramius
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby Ramius » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:59 pm

SailorMoon9543 wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:
If studying law is someone's dream, they will pay the $ to do it.


Why is this your goal? Shouldn't your goal be to practice law, preferably in a certain practice area?

Don't limit yourself and your options and don't be so short-sighted about your actual goals. If your goals are to work for the government in FL, UF/FSU for as cheap as possible is TCR. But you can't simply look at tuition as the potential cost, as you also have to remember your cost of living, which will easily double that yearly figure. So UF/FSU at sticker would be ~$120k+ interest easily when it's all said and done. Compare that with a retake and likely improvement with further study: a couple hundred bucks and a year to work and save up money.

Please remember that you're trying to build a career here, not just continue your education. The best way to build your career is to start it off on the right foot. Rushing into law school because you can't wait at the potential cost of thousands of dollars and the best chance for your desired outcome would be a horrible mistake.


Let's not argue semantics here. I didn't mean that literally STUDYING law is my dream. Obviously, it's the options that a JD gives you that is "the dream" (which you must study to attain). I realize how much debt I will be in. I'm not an idiot; obviously that includes COL. I don't need a math lesson. As for the LSAT, I have already taken the test twice. I really wasn't planning on sharing so much personal info, but here it goes: I have an anxiety disorder. I have for the last few years ever since I was home alone and my house was broken into. Stress brings the anxiety on. The LSAT made this stress worse and definitely contributed to my score not being as high as it could have. Taking it over is really NOT an option for me. If you have any advice besides telling me to retake, you're welcome to give it.


Please understand that I'm really not trying to argue semantics and I'm not trying to suggest you're an idiot, because there are those that really just want to "keep their momentum going from undergrad" and other such nonsense that really has nothing to do with being ready to enter the field of law. As for the debt, the original figures you stated were just tuition, not including COL, so I was again just making sure you accounted for everything. Lastly, what evidence do you have to suggest law school exams will be any different from the pressure of the LSAT? For most, it's much worse. Your entire future rides on your performance on those few tests and it's graded on a strict curve where you could knock it out of the park in your own mind and still underperform because others did it better or because you missed a few points the professor wanted emphasized.

If you're not familiar with how legal hiring goes and how placement power works for various levels of law school, is it wrong of me to assume you might fall into other traps of the law school experience? I don't really think so. This is an important decision, and you deserve to be as well-informed as possible when you make it.

I also want to ask one question: what sort of "opportunities" are you looking for in the government? Is it safe to assume PD/DA work? Or something else?

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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby cron1834 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:05 pm

SailorMoon9543 wrote:
cron1834 wrote:So you have no reason to believe that a second LSAT would be as anxiety-producing, then? That's what you are implying. But you deny the logical consequence.

Does not compute.


I already said I took it twice.


Why can't you take it a third time, then? Again, does not compute, unless you're positing that you have a LSAT-specific phobia that drives your anxiety. Wtf?

californiauser
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby californiauser » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:05 pm

Are you using loans to pay for law school? If your parents are paying, YOLO and go to UF/FSU. If you're financing via loans, I can't cosign any of these options. I don't think any of these schools are worth more than 30k-50k in loans.

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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby phireblast » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:18 pm

Just my personal opinion, but you might be best served sticking to either UF or FSU.
W/M is a "better" school according to USN, but not necessarily for you for the reasons stated already.

The UM scholarship is nice, but it's still very expensive.

You're a FL resident, as I am. Both UF and FSU can provide you with a solid legal education for a great price given the cost of attending law schools around the nation, and especially if you can get a scholarship.

Honestly, your best course of action is to try and negotiate a scholarship out of either UF or FSU. Use the UM scholarship as leverage.

Here are the possible outcomes:
1. Both UF and FSU offer scholarships and you just choose the one you like better.
2. Either UF and FSU offer a scholarship and you just take the one that offered it.
3. Neither UF nor FSU offer a scholarship and you choose to go to either at sticker.
4. Neither UF nor FSU offer a scholarship and you choose to go to UM.
5. Neither UF nor FSU offer a scholarship, you postpone law school for another year and try to take the LSAT a 3rd time.

I understand that taking the LSAT for a third time is not something you're strongly considering.

But I am giving this advice to you as a FL resident who is currently stuck between UF and FSU who took a gap year after graduation to take a third LSAT.

I didn't go straight into law school because at the time, my LSAT score was pretty bad. I bought my first LSAT preparation book and studied on my own as a sophomore and continued till my first test as a senior in October. I was still scoring in the 65th-70th percentile, but I made the tough decision to postpone a year to take the LSAT a third time, this time after some actual LSAT tutoring.

The decision was hard, not necessarily for me but because of the feedback I would get from everyone else involved in my life. I knew the advantages to taking a year off, working, making some money, and just being away from academia for a year to clear my mind. But even my parents were reluctant when they heard I wanted to take a year off, prompting my dad to even call me a "loser" during one of our fights.

And of course, having to explain why you weren't going to law school after years of telling people who ask "what do you want to do after graduation?" that you wanted to go to law school.

But all in all, things have worked out for me. I don't want to sound like an advertisement and I am in no way trying to sell their services, but I studied with Kaplan over the summer and am very glad I did. I thought I just didn't have the brain for logic games, after about 3 months with Kaplan that was my strongest section.

My LSAT went way up and now I'm finally feeling in control of my fate. I have no plans to leave Florida, however, which is why I'm stuck between UF and FSU. FSU has offered a very generous scholarship, and I'm just waiting on UF.

I know you didn't need my life story, but I think there is a lot to be learned from the experiences of others. I wish you the best of luck!

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SailorMoon9543
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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby SailorMoon9543 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:32 pm

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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby SailorMoon9543 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:35 pm

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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby SailorMoon9543 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:41 pm

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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby SailorMoon9543 » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:45 pm

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Re: FSU, UF or W&M?

Postby sublime » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:49 pm

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