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Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:53 pm
by Saddle Up
timbs4339 wrote:The job/career prospects between UGA and Duke are worlds apart. If Georgia firms preferred in-state students they wouldn't drop their grade cutoffs for people who went out of state.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=georgia
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=duke

Although you've said that you understand the stress and commitment involved in law school and the profession, you still haven't told us whether you actually want to be a lawyer or why you want to join the profession. Do you just want a job where you wear a suit to work everyday and draw a steady paycheck?

At this point I am at a crossroads to do something after UG. The legal profession may have negatives but I do not know of many opportunities where a grad can join the workplace earning a good paycheck on day one (using my brother and sister as examples… plus a number of their friends).

As far as attending higher ranked schools, I saw a couple with employment scores of +90%. Six years ago my brother had the chance to go to one of those schools but instead stayed at UGA for LS and ended up at a large Atlanta firm (pretty much the same for my sister too). So moving out of state would have been a costly and inconvenient exercise.

On my end until the LSAT, everything is speculative. Thanks.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:13 pm
by HankBashir
I was raised in Georgia and went to UGA for undergrad. That said, I chose to go out of state for law school. With that in mind:

Your decision largely comes down to you playing the odds. Your siblings have had good outcomes, most likely as good as they would've gotten from going to law schools with better job prosepcts out of state. If you wish to roll the dice and you think you'll have as good of an outcome as your siblings (and their assorted friends), then by all means, stay and go to law school in Georgia. If you want better odds at your success, go to a school with better job placement stats. Rankings don't matter.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:54 pm
by jselson
Saddle Up wrote:
jselson wrote:Do tax law. Good hours, you work with people, non-confrontational, and you can make a ton of money.

Thanks. That’s a great thought. Weirdly enough I do not recall anyone here ever discussing tax law. What I am ultimately hoping for is that my brother follows through on starting a firm with a couple of his friends and my sister. Then the perfect scenario is for me to join them. The tax niche might be a perfect fit. How often do you have to face the IRS (or go to court)?


I'm not sure (1L), but you should talk to practitioners for specifics. I do know that, from the tax lawyers I have met, and talking with professors who know tax folks, that they generally feel happier in their jobs than most lawyers, have better hours except around the big tax times, that it's lucrative, and that usually you're trying to help someone or some company out and you work with them somewhat closely. And apparently much of the work is intellectually attractive. I'd never considered even thinking about tax before coming to law school, but after talking a bit, and really with one professor in particular, I'm starting to seriously think about it.

Oh, and if I had to guess, I'd imagine court appearances are rare, but again, just introduce yourself to a practitioner.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:38 pm
by gregfootball2001
Saddle Up wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:The job/career prospects between UGA and Duke are worlds apart. If Georgia firms preferred in-state students they wouldn't drop their grade cutoffs for people who went out of state.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=georgia
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=duke

Although you've said that you understand the stress and commitment involved in law school and the profession, you still haven't told us whether you actually want to be a lawyer or why you want to join the profession. Do you just want a job where you wear a suit to work everyday and draw a steady paycheck?

At this point I am at a crossroads to do something after UG. The legal profession may have negatives but I do not know of many opportunities where a grad can join the workplace earning a good paycheck on day one (using my brother and sister as examples… plus a number of their friends).

As far as attending higher ranked schools, I saw a couple with employment scores of +90%. Six years ago my brother had the chance to go to one of those schools but instead stayed at UGA for LS and ended up at a large Atlanta firm (pretty much the same for my sister too). So moving out of state would have been a costly and inconvenient exercise.

On my end until the LSAT, everything is speculative. Thanks.

I'm confused by the disconnect here. Are we being unclear, or are you not reading?

It's wonderful that your siblings did well in a different economy. Good for them. That does not mean that you will.

The chance of you getting a big firm job from UGA is less than 25%. But hey, dude, the employment score on LST is almost 70%! That does not matter. The chances of you getting your siblings' jobs are 25%.

At Duke (just to take one school that was mentioned as an example), more than 60% of the students get these big firm jobs. Okay? Those are the differences. One school, under 25% shot. Another, 60%+.

If you want to go to Georgia, that's wonderful. I go to Georgia. I like it here. I got a good, (slightly above) market paying job out of it. But many of my friends, including some on law review, didn't. Say you want to go here because you don't feel comfortable leaving the state - great. Say you want to go here because they're letting you go for free, and you don't care if you get a big law job - wonderful. But do not say that there is no employment difference between going to Georgia and a place like Duke. Because there really, really, really is.

Moving out of state wouldn't be costly and inconvenient - it would be a better gamble. You can lose at Duke, and you can win at Georgia. But for the love of god, at least understand that they're not the same.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:55 pm
by timbs4339
Saddle Up wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:The job/career prospects between UGA and Duke are worlds apart. If Georgia firms preferred in-state students they wouldn't drop their grade cutoffs for people who went out of state.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=georgia
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=duke

Although you've said that you understand the stress and commitment involved in law school and the profession, you still haven't told us whether you actually want to be a lawyer or why you want to join the profession. Do you just want a job where you wear a suit to work everyday and draw a steady paycheck?

At this point I am at a crossroads to do something after UG. The legal profession may have negatives but I do not know of many opportunities where a grad can join the workplace earning a good paycheck on day one (using my brother and sister as examples… plus a number of their friends).

As far as attending higher ranked schools, I saw a couple with employment scores of +90%. Six years ago my brother had the chance to go to one of those schools but instead stayed at UGA for LS and ended up at a large Atlanta firm (pretty much the same for my sister too). So moving out of state would have been a costly and inconvenient exercise.

On my end until the LSAT, everything is speculative. Thanks.


The above post covered the numbers very well.

I'll add that one reason I'm focusing on the differences between the two is because outside of biglaw and other prestigious jobs, you really have to want to be a lawyer in order to be a lawyer. The majority of legal work is not "join the workplace earning a good paycheck on day one." Most lawyers from schools like Georgia get jobs in very small firms, deal with relatively unsophisticated clients, work on matters that aren't going to make the papers, and will generally be thrown neck deep into legal practice without much formal training because they don't teach you how to be a lawyer in law school (or be asked to hustle for clients). Some will not even find a job. Or you'll work for the state or local government, probably in criminal law, and if you don't want to do criminal law starting out, you're gonna have a very bad time.

Don't get me wrong, working in a small firm can be very rewarding both personally and professionally, but it's one part like a job and three parts like building a small business. And generally you have to really want to be a lawyer, instead of just someone who wants a white collar job.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:53 pm
by Saddle Up
timbs4339 wrote:The above post covered the numbers very well.

I'll add that one reason I'm focusing on the differences between the two is because outside of biglaw and other prestigious jobs, you really have to want to be a lawyer in order to be a lawyer. The majority of legal work is not "join the workplace earning a good paycheck on day one." Most lawyers from schools like Georgia get jobs in very small firms, deal with relatively unsophisticated clients, work on matters that aren't going to make the papers, and will generally be thrown neck deep into legal practice without much formal training because they don't teach you how to be a lawyer in law school (or be asked to hustle for clients). Some will not even find a job. Or you'll work for the state or local government, probably in criminal law, and if you don't want to do criminal law starting out, you're gonna have a very bad time.

Don't get me wrong, working in a small firm can be very rewarding both personally and professionally, but it's one part like a job and three parts like building a small business. And generally you have to really want to be a lawyer, instead of just someone who wants a white collar job.

Last night I was in the company of several Atlanta attorneys, mostly female. Their advice was to swing for the big leagues if I crushed my LSAT. Schools that were mentioned include Chicago, Penn, Columbia, Stanford. I checked them on the links and they were indeed impressive, +90 range with 2/3 of the grads entering huge firms. But short of a rock solid score their advice was that Emory is a solid choice for Atlanta.

As far as passion. I am starting to get into groove of liking law. But no, lawyering has not been a lifelong dream. As far as criminal law, I do no recall meeting anyone in that field or anyone working for the state or city, prosecution or public defense. What I have encountered are people discussing the upside of going to or starting a boutique firm (need to read up on that).

What I might enjoy is working for a firm catering to businesses… I cannot envision handling cases for the drunk and disorderly or those heading to divorce court. I am liking the earlier suggestion of tax law. My wavering thoughts on a cold and snowy night.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:22 pm
by timbs4339
Saddle Up wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:The above post covered the numbers very well.

I'll add that one reason I'm focusing on the differences between the two is because outside of biglaw and other prestigious jobs, you really have to want to be a lawyer in order to be a lawyer. The majority of legal work is not "join the workplace earning a good paycheck on day one." Most lawyers from schools like Georgia get jobs in very small firms, deal with relatively unsophisticated clients, work on matters that aren't going to make the papers, and will generally be thrown neck deep into legal practice without much formal training because they don't teach you how to be a lawyer in law school (or be asked to hustle for clients). Some will not even find a job. Or you'll work for the state or local government, probably in criminal law, and if you don't want to do criminal law starting out, you're gonna have a very bad time.

Don't get me wrong, working in a small firm can be very rewarding both personally and professionally, but it's one part like a job and three parts like building a small business. And generally you have to really want to be a lawyer, instead of just someone who wants a white collar job.

Last night I was in the company of several Atlanta attorneys, mostly female. Their advice was to swing for the big leagues if I crushed my LSAT. Schools that were mentioned include Chicago, Penn, Columbia, Stanford. I checked them on the links and they were indeed impressive, +90 range with 2/3 of the grads entering huge firms. But short of a rock solid score their advice was that Emory is a solid choice for Atlanta.

As far as passion. I am starting to get into groove of liking law. But no, lawyering has not been a lifelong dream. As far as criminal law, I do no recall meeting anyone in that field or anyone working for the state or city, prosecution or public defense. What I have encountered are people discussing the upside of going to or starting a boutique firm (need to read up on that).

What I might enjoy is working for a firm catering to businesses… I cannot envision handling cases for the drunk and disorderly or those heading to divorce court. I am liking the earlier suggestion of tax law. My wavering thoughts on a cold and snowy night.


I hate to keep on harping negatively. Tax law is great. I know tax associates. They like tax better than people in litigation or corporate work like lit or corporate. But outside of the big firms and a few elite boutiques, there just isn't a great demand for entry-level tax lawyers because only corporations ever need that kind of tax advice from a lawyer. There isn't even a great demand within biglaw- even 1000 person firms may have 2-3 tax associates per year. You may be able to get in with a firm that does trusts and estates work, but you'll likely be doing that along with other areas of law that you sound like you're not that interested in (like DUI or family law). Lawyers are kind of like doctors- most are "generalists" who do take whatever broken bone or runny nose walks in the door, and as an associate for a generalist you'll also have to do whatever works in the door. Saying you want to do tax or work at a firm "catering to business" is like saying you want to be a neurosurgeon but you're going to schools that don't place many people into hospitals.

Starting a firm is not recommended unless you have a few years of experience, because of your lack of experience, lack of capital, and lack of clients. If your siblings plan to start one, you might be able to join up with them and they can help you along/cover your ass while you learn the ropes. Like I said, it's tough work - I worked for one solo with an absolutely sterling pedigree and even he had to hustle and scrap to get clients.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:03 am
by Saddle Up
timbs4339 wrote:I hate to keep on harping negatively. Tax law is great. I know tax associates. They like tax better than people in litigation or corporate work like lit or corporate. But outside of the big firms and a few elite boutiques, there just isn't a great demand for entry-level tax lawyers because only corporations ever need that kind of tax advice from a lawyer.

When I mentioned tax law I was advised that now was not the time to even remotely consider a niche.

Given the weather here, there hasn’t been much to do except prep for the upcoming LSAT. Right now I am pacing 4 points higher than the Emory median. I suppose this might mean a reduction in tuition (it did for my sister).

One upside of being an attorney, lawyers (or else their firms) seem to somehow constantly score great seats to a lot of different events. My brother and his fiancée are heading to Jersey for the game (if the Falcons were playing I’d be extremely envious). Attorneys seem to enjoy life outside of the daily routine. Good motivation ... as I head back to prepping.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:09 pm
by timbs4339
Saddle Up wrote:One upside of being an attorney, lawyers (or else their firms) seem to somehow constantly score great seats to a lot of different events. My brother and his fiancée are heading to Jersey for the game (if the Falcons were playing I’d be extremely envious). Attorneys seem to enjoy life outside of the daily routine. Good motivation ... as I head back to prepping.


Oh now you're just trying to give me a heart attack.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:32 pm
by ggocat
timbs4339 wrote:Oh now you're just trying to give me a heart attack.

This. Thread. Is. Killing me.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:37 pm
by ggocat
timbs4339 wrote:Oh now you're just trying to give me a heart attack.

Also, if you're looking for a heart attack, you must read this. http://www.jdunderground.com/all/thread ... adId=53642

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:14 pm
by Saddle Up
Thanks for the comments but it’s all hypothetical until the LSAT. Understandably the odds are likely better at a higher ranked school on the other hand my dad’s “go to school where you are going to do business” has its merits. Keep in mind I am not aiming for NYC, LA or DC.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 2:50 pm
by envisciguy
Saddle Up wrote:Thanks for the comments but it’s all hypothetical until the LSAT. Understandably the odds are likely better at a higher ranked school on the other hand my dad’s “go to school where you are going to do business” has its merits. Keep in mind I am not aiming for NYC, LA or DC.


Not really. Atlanta is an incredibly difficult market to crack, especially with many of the big firms decreasing their class sizes. The only reason to go to Emory would be if it was free.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:13 pm
by BigZuck
I'm kind of curious why the OP came here to ask questions if he already had made up his mind in regards to all this stuff.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:28 pm
by NYstate
[quote="BigZuck"]I'm kind of curious why the OP came here to ask questions if he already had made up his mind in regards to all this stuff.[/quote]

I don't want to sound harsh but OP is the first poster here who I really don't give a shit what happens to them. Sounds like they have life all figured out.

After all, every NYC based attorney at my firm scored Super Bowl tickets. Little known fact, the entire crowd is lawyers from around the country.

Maybe I'm just a little grouchy, but the 0Ls this year are much stupider about schools and more resistant to good advice than the past couple of years. Maybe all the news about law school being a terrible investment hasn't filtered out as far into the country as I thought.

Post removed.

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:52 pm
by MistakenGenius
Post removed.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:49 am
by timbs4339
MistakenGenius wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I'm kind of curious why the OP came here to ask questions if he already had made up his mind in regards to all this stuff.


It's called confirmatory or confirmation bias. He wants people to say how much we agree with the decision he's already made. If anyone tells him that its a bad idea (even if they go to Emory or UGA and know firsthand), he'll discredit that in his mind because of two pieces of anecdotal evidence. He's going to Emory. OP, I'll help you out. To answer your primary question, no, as far as what you learn, Cooley is the same as Yale. Emory will give you a fine education and I'm sure you'll obtain big law just like your sis. Also, being a lawyer rocks. Just wave to us lowly Plebeians when you score 50 yard line tickets to the super bowl in a few year. Good luck.


It's something about law. People really want to believe that attorneys score great seats to the Super Bowl and other such nonsense. If OPs brother had been an insurance adjuster who got tickets he wouldn't be on the Top-Insurance-Adjusters.com crowing about wanting to go be an insurance adjuster or think that become an insurance adjuster was a ticket to "enjoying life."

OP: Attorneys have much higher rates of substance abuse, anxiety disorders, and depression than the general population and even other professions. There's a non-negligible chance you'll develop one of those problems in law school.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:32 pm
by Saddle Up
timbs4339 wrote:It's something about law. People really want to believe that attorneys score great seats to the Super Bowl and other such nonsense. If OPs brother had been an insurance adjuster who got tickets he wouldn't be on the Top-Insurance-Adjusters.com crowing about wanting to go be an insurance adjuster or think that become an insurance adjuster was a ticket to "enjoying life."

OP: Attorneys have much higher rates of substance abuse, anxiety disorders, and depression than the general population and even other professions. There's a non-negligible chance you'll develop one of those problems in law school.

I believe if I can make it through the LSAT phase without substance abuse, anxiety disorders or depression the rest of the journey will be cake.

Seriously, I have not made any decision and have not discredited any school or rejected any idea (except applying to John Hopkins). I understand the rational upside of applying to a top 10 school. Similar to the adamant and logical advice of picking the favorite Broncos over the Seahawks.

I glanced at threads where there is genuine disagreement about taking a tier2 discounted ride verses the debt that accompanies schools with better employment stats. Something to be said for both points of view. If I lived in Pinecone, GA, the decision would be effortless but giving up Atlanta makes the choice rather complicated.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:36 pm
by JCougar
Saddle Up wrote:I believe if I can make it through the LSAT phase without substance abuse, anxiety disorders or depression the rest of the journey will be cake.


Srsly?

Please tell me you are like someone from xoxohth coming here just to troll.

I don't mean to be a dick, but I really hope you don't think this, because law school is 100 times worse than LSAT prep.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:16 pm
by Saddle Up
Haven’t been here since my LSAT result (171). Ready to pull the trigger on Emory, especially since E is now a top 20 LS. More importantly they’re offering +100K scholarship. Not a full ride, but nevertheless, considering no COL, damn close.

There doesn’t seem a big prestige difference between E and Duke (considering I want to work in Atlanta). The only quandary is deciding whether or not Columbia or Penn might still be a better move (only fair discounts, nowhere matching E). Stay put and pass up the Ivy and the big city lights?

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:36 pm
by Winston1984
Saddle Up wrote:Haven’t been here since my LSAT result (171). Ready to pull the trigger on Emory, especially since E is now a top 20 LS. More importantly they’re offering +100K scholarship. Not a full ride, but nevertheless, considering no COL, damn close.

There doesn’t seem a big prestige difference between E and Duke (considering I want to work in Atlanta). The only quandary is deciding whether or not Columbia or Penn might still be a better move (only fair discounts, nowhere matching E). Stay put and pass up the Ivy and the big city lights?


Duke and Emory are very far apart in terms of job prospects. I'm sure they are very far apart in prestige as well. It doesn't matter that Emory is now ranked differently. It will just change next year and it doesn't change the employment prospects. Go to Duke/UVA if you ATL.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:06 pm
by MyNameIsFlynn!
I remember this thread. You're the guy who refused to listen to reason (or rather, tuned out any advice that didn't validate your decision).

Good luck at Emory. Hopefully you'll find gainful employment.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:25 pm
by TheSpanishMain
I don't think Emory with a huge discount and no CoL, combined with a desire to work in Atlanta, is a bad thing. You have to be comfortable with the idea that you probably won't get BigLaw, though. If you could see yourself being happy in a small/midsize firm or in state/local government, then Emory for <40k in debt sounds fine to me.

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:53 pm
by BigZuck
Saddle Up wrote:Haven’t been here since my LSAT result (171). Ready to pull the trigger on Emory, especially since E is now a top 20 LS. More importantly they’re offering +100K scholarship. Not a full ride, but nevertheless, considering no COL, damn close.

There doesn’t seem a big prestige difference between E and Duke (considering I want to work in Atlanta). The only quandary is deciding whether or not Columbia or Penn might still be a better move (only fair discounts, nowhere matching E). Stay put and pass up the Ivy and the big city lights?


There's a pretty sizeable chasm between Emory and Duke.

Not sure why you ever even posted here to being with, your mind was made up and you weren't gonna listen to no one for nuthin

GL bro

Re: Georgia Law Schools

Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:50 am
by Saddle Up
At least for a week I am not technically committed to E. I have to admit I am tempted by Penn and Columbia (they have serious creds, as in write your own ticket). I will have to sort this out in the next few days. It is perplexing.