T10, T14, T15, or T20?

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T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Poll ended at Thu Feb 06, 2014 2:47 am

T10
25
22%
T14
67
60%
T15
5
4%
T20
15
13%
 
Total votes: 112

Zeeguy91
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T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby Zeeguy91 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:47 am

I just wanna know. I've seen people say that T14 schools are the end-all-be-all ideal. However, I'm not entirely sure if that's true. If the criteria for being a T14 school is for the school to have been consistently ranked in the top 14 since the beginning of the USN rankings in 1987, then even a few of the schools we now consider T14 would be disqualified. Those would namely be Northwestern and Cornell, which were ranked at the #16 and #15 slots respectively in 1987, both being outranked by UCLA and UT Austin (#14 and #11, respectively).

Also, its not as if the T14 schools are the only schools whose alumni predominately place nationally over locally or whose reputation is widely known across the country. A few examples of such schools outside the T14, such as Vanderbilt, come to mind.

So, my question really is this: should people, instead of limiting the ideal to the T10 or T14, start considering the T15 or T20 as close to an ideal placement?

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jingosaur
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby jingosaur » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:53 am

:roll:

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Danger Zone
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:53 am

No because employment.

/thread

P.S. consider learning the definition of consistent (hint: it doesn't mean zero outliers)

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twenty
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby twenty » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:00 am

Oh boy.

20141023
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby 20141023 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:53 am

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sighsigh
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby sighsigh » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:36 am

Retake.

lastminuteuser
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby lastminuteuser » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:38 am

sighsigh wrote:Retake.



lol

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cotiger
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby cotiger » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:51 am

The answer is big law and federal clerkship jobs. Here's what the percentage of the class (after factoring out PI/Gov minus a quarter of school funded) that gets one of those jobs from the lower T14 vs the best of the rest:

Cornell 71
Berkeley 69
UVA 67
Duke 67
Northwestern 64
Michigan 62

Georgetown 54

Vanderbilt 46
USC 42
UCLA 41
GW 40
Texas 40

Note the gigantic gap between Michigan and Vanderbilt and the clustering that occurs on either side of that gap. That's why people talk about T14 vs non-T14. Also, GULC being in the middle is why people tend to freak out about it (and also like to troll it with T13).

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guano
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby guano » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:10 am

There is little difference between the T10 and T14 in terms of outcome. 10 is just a round number.

At all the T14, more than half of all graduates have desirable outcomes (biglaw, Art III clerkships, etc.), whereas outside the T14, it's less than half. An argument can be made to make it T13, as Georgetown tends to lag behind the rest of the T14, but, Georgetown is still noticeably ahead of the rest of the pack.
T15 would be silly, UCLA, UT, USC and Vanderbilt are roughly equivalent in terms of employment outcomes, and you can't really differentiate between them like that. T18 is kind of ridiculous, because while there tends to be a noticeable gap between those 4 schools and the rest of the pack, in terms of employment outcome, they're not up to the same level as the T14.

T20 is ridiculous, because employment wise Minnesota and WUSTL do not stand out from the rest. Actually, once you get past the top 18, the correlation between rankings and employment gets more and more tenuous. There are schools that consistently rank higher than their employment outcome (Notre Dame, Iowa), and schools that consistently have better employment outcomes than their rankings would indicate (BU/BC). Once you get below roughly T40 or so (some would say T30, some T50), rankings become meaningless. Just as there's now a Tier 3, there used to be a Tier 2 (roughly, schools ranked 51-100).
Is there still a separate Tier 4?
(personally, I think Tier 2 could be top schools in secondary markets and secondary schools in top markets, whereas Tier 3 would be sole schools in small markets, like Wyoming, and Tier 4 would be bottom-feeder schools like Cooley)

Going the other way, there is an undisputed distinction between HYS and the rest of the T14. People who attend the schools that would be included are happy to say T6, but considering that NU and Penn can rival (and sometimes best) those schools in employment, it's a tenuous distinction

Jan 14
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby Jan 14 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:06 am

Then of course there are the ATL rankings. Not sure of their worldly status today, but at some point they might be considered legit without question. As is, Penn and Duke can claim T6 honors. GA St, Seton Hall, Miami and Rutgers can now assert tier 1 status.

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guano
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby guano » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:18 am

Jan 14 wrote:Then of course there are the ATL rankings. Not sure of their worldly status today, but at some point they might be considered legit without question. As is, Penn and Duke can claim T6 honors. GA St, Seton Hall, Miami and Rutgers can now assert tier 1 status.

Their ranking has some merit, but is not useful when looking at the T14.

Basically, they do not differentiate based on quality of job, only on whether it's full time, long term, JD required. It answers the question "how many graduates get jobs as lawyers?", which is particularly important when looking at regional and secondary schools.

People who are considering the T14 care about the quality of the jobs they get. While someone going to a regional school might be happy doing "shitlaw", students contemplating elite schools have more prestigious ambitions. The best metric is biglaw + Art. III clerkship, but if you don't want to do any work, just look at the NLJ250 rankings.

Zeeguy91
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby Zeeguy91 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:40 am

Thanks everybody for your answers, but I honestly think the whole T14 thing is overblown. You can obviously find studies or numbers that contradict the notion that the T14 are the best that there is. Look at the Princeton Review. As recently as 2012, they listed Vanderbilt as among the school with the top 10 career prospects after graduation.

Plus, I guess I'm a but more accepting because I've known people who've gone to schools that are definitely out of the top 14, such as Washington & Lee, Notre Dame, and Maryland, and have all gotten really great jobs after graduating. One of those who graduated from Maryland Law actually got a starting salary of 140k right out of the gate. And then look at people like the governor of my home state, Martin O'Malley. He went to Maryland for law school and look at that, he's the freaking Governor of a state and a presidential hopeful.

It just seems to me that this restriction to just the T14 seems to be a way for people to look down on other schools.

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cotiger
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby cotiger » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:44 am

guano wrote:
Jan 14 wrote:Then of course there are the ATL rankings. Not sure of their worldly status today, but at some point they might be considered legit without question. As is, Penn and Duke can claim T6 honors. GA St, Seton Hall, Miami and Rutgers can now assert tier 1 status.

Their ranking has some merit, but is not useful when looking at the T14.

Basically, they do not differentiate based on quality of job, only on whether it's full time, long term, JD required. It answers the question "how many graduates get jobs as lawyers?", which is particularly important when looking at regional and secondary schools.


You have it backwards. ATL factors in quality of job, USNWR doesn't. Regardless, specific rankings don't matter. The important distinction is that all of the T14(13) give you at least a 65% shot at BL/A3, while the next best schools give you at best around a 40% chance.

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DrStudMuffin
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby DrStudMuffin » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:46 am

Zeeguy91 wrote:Thanks everybody for your answers, but I honestly think the whole T14 thing is overblown. You can obviously find studies or numbers that contradict the notion that the T14 are the best that there is. Look at the Princeton Review. As recently as 2012, they listed Vanderbilt as among the school with the top 10 career prospects after graduation.

Plus, I guess I'm a but more accepting because I've known people who've gone to schools that are definitely out of the top 14, such as Washington & Lee, Notre Dame, and Maryland, and have all gotten really great jobs after graduating. One of those who graduated from Maryland Law actually got a starting salary of 140k right out of the gate. And then look at people like the governor of my home state, Martin O'Malley. He went to Maryland for law school and look at that, he's the freaking Governor of a state and a presidential hopeful.

It just seems to me that this restriction to just the T14 seems to be a way for people to look down on other schools.


This is well-reasoned and thoughtful analysis - definitely will hold up to scrutiny. I concur, sir!

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moonman157
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby moonman157 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:47 am

Zeeguy91 wrote:Thanks everybody for your answers, but I honestly think the whole T14 thing is overblown. You can obviously find studies or numbers that contradict the notion that the T14 are the best that there is. Look at the Princeton Review. As recently as 2012, they listed Vanderbilt as among the school with the top 10 career prospects after graduation.

Plus, I guess I'm a but more accepting because I've known people who've gone to schools that are definitely out of the top 14, such as Washington & Lee, Notre Dame, and Maryland, and have all gotten really great jobs after graduating. One of those who graduated from Maryland Law actually got a starting salary of 140k right out of the gate. And then look at people like the governor of my home state, Martin O'Malley. He went to Maryland for law school and look at that, he's the freaking Governor of a state and a presidential hopeful.

It just seems to me that this restriction to just the T14 seems to be a way for people to look down on other schools.


Princeton Review blows and I doubt you will find any credible poster on this site defend it. And just because you can point to someone who won the lottery doesn't mean you should throw $200K on lottery tickets. No one on this site will ever say that it's impossible to be successful from a school outside the T14. It's just that ITE the T14 is often the only group of schools worth paying six figures for, given your risk at other schools of not getting biglaw or a legal job at all.

20141023
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby 20141023 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:47 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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guano
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby guano » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:55 am

Zeeguy91 wrote:Thanks everybody for your answers, but I honestly think the whole T14 thing is overblown. You can obviously find studies or numbers that contradict the notion that the T14 are the best that there is. Look at the Princeton Review. As recently as 2012, they listed Vanderbilt as among the school with the top 10 career prospects after graduation.

Plus, I guess I'm a but more accepting because I've known people who've gone to schools that are definitely out of the top 14, such as Washington & Lee, Notre Dame, and Maryland, and have all gotten really great jobs after graduating. One of those who graduated from Maryland Law actually got a starting salary of 140k right out of the gate. And then look at people like the governor of my home state, Martin O'Malley. He went to Maryland for law school and look at that, he's the freaking Governor of a state and a presidential hopeful.

It just seems to me that this restriction to just the T14 seems to be a way for people to look down on other schools.

Anecdotes... There are people with exceptional careers coming out of the worst schools, and people who are complete failures out of the best ones. It's not about arrogance, it's about setting yourself up for the best possible outcome. Out of the T14, you have a better chance of getting into a good law firm, which will give you a better chance to work on complex/prestigious matters, which will give you a better chance to build a solid reputation, etc.

I have a friend who went to a TTT in a small market, graduated top 10%, went to work in biglaw in a major market, and became department head before he was 30. I still wouldn't advise going to that school, because he's the exception, not the rule. Take a look at the make-up of the Supreme Court. See if you notice a pattern.

I hate the expression "cream will rise", but it's true. The best people will rise to the top. Thing is, not only is the "cream" is more likely to get into the top schools, they'll rise faster because of it. If you go to, say, Maryland, you need to be near the top of your class to have a reasonable chance at biglaw. If you happen to have a really bad day that coincides with 1 exam and fuck it up, you probably won't get biglaw, whereas at HYS, you could be bottom of the pack and still get one. So, now you have to struggle to find a job, while your equivalent at HYS can focus on learning to be better at the job. You end up working small-law on small matters, with a mediocre mentor, while your HYS equivalent gets to work on major things learning from some of the best in the business.
Without being any smarter, the person who went to HYS gets to work on more complicated matters, with access to better resources, while building a more prestigious network with the elite, than the one who went to the regional school, who works on relatively simple matters and only building up a regional network.

Put simply, going to a better school give you a better opportunity to rise faster, whereas going to the regional will effectively be the equivalent of driving with the handbrake on

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SteelPenguin
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby SteelPenguin » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:58 am

Zeeguy91 wrote:Thanks everybody for your answers, but I honestly think the whole T14 thing is overblown. You can obviously find studies or numbers that contradict the notion that the T14 are the best that there is. Look at the Princeton Review. As recently as 2012, they listed Vanderbilt as among the school with the top 10 career prospects after graduation.

Plus, I guess I'm a but more accepting because I've known people who've gone to schools that are definitely out of the top 14, such as Washington & Lee, Notre Dame, and Maryland, and have all gotten really great jobs after graduating. One of those who graduated from Maryland Law actually got a starting salary of 140k right out of the gate. And then look at people like the governor of my home state, Martin O'Malley. He went to Maryland for law school and look at that, he's the freaking Governor of a state and a presidential hopeful.

It just seems to me that this restriction to just the T14 seems to be a way for people to look down on other schools.


Go to Lawschooltransparency.com and look at the employment numbers. Remember that the there is not much of a difference in cost whether you attend Duke (#11), Washington and Lee (#26) or Seton Hall (#64).

Please take a look at the difference between Duke and W&L:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=duke
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl

Sure, some people come out of W&L with great jobs every year, but there are FAR fewer doing so at W&L vs. a T14 like Duke. Barely half of W&L grads are coming out of school with Bar passage required jobs 9 months out of law school, and you're paying ~$45k in tuition + CoL each year for that.

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guano
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby guano » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:00 pm

cotiger wrote:
guano wrote:
Jan 14 wrote:Then of course there are the ATL rankings. Not sure of their worldly status today, but at some point they might be considered legit without question. As is, Penn and Duke can claim T6 honors. GA St, Seton Hall, Miami and Rutgers can now assert tier 1 status.

Their ranking has some merit, but is not useful when looking at the T14.

Basically, they do not differentiate based on quality of job, only on whether it's full time, long term, JD required. It answers the question "how many graduates get jobs as lawyers?", which is particularly important when looking at regional and secondary schools.


You have it backwards. ATL factors in quality of job, USNWR doesn't. Regardless, specific rankings don't matter. The important distinction is that all of the T14(13) give you at least a 65% shot at BL/A3, while the next best schools give you at best around a 40% chance.


Sorry, I was thinking of the LST rankings. Note that the ATL rankings are very similar to the US News rankings in that there's HYS -> T14 + UCLA/UT/Vandy (the noticeable difference is that Georgetown is a bit lower down)

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vuthy
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby vuthy » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:01 pm

Zeeguy91 wrote:It just seems to me that this restriction to just the T14 seems to be a way for people to look down on other schools.


The problem is that it doesn't matter that it seems to you to be this way. You may be right, or part right. But what matters is that within the legal community, broadly defined, T14 is a thing. It marks status (deservingly or not), and that's not going to change anytime soon.

I think the responses here are just trying to encourage you to recognize the realities of the legal employment marketplace rather than trying to fight them on principle.

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cotiger
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby cotiger » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:04 pm

Zeeguy91 wrote:Thanks everybody for your answers, but I honestly think the whole T14 thing is overblown. You can obviously find studies or numbers that contradict the notion that the T14 are the best that there is. Look at the Princeton Review. As recently as 2012, they listed Vanderbilt as among the school with the top 10 career prospects after graduation.

Plus, I guess I'm a but more accepting because I've known people who've gone to schools that are definitely out of the top 14, such as Washington & Lee, Notre Dame, and Maryland, and have all gotten really great jobs after graduating. One of those who graduated from Maryland Law actually got a starting salary of 140k right out of the gate. And then look at people like the governor of my home state, Martin O'Malley. He went to Maryland for law school and look at that, he's the freaking Governor of a state and a presidential hopeful.

It just seems to me that this restriction to just the T14 seems to be a way for people to look down on other schools.


Of those three schools, Notre Dame is the best. After taking out PI/Gov people, 37% of the remainder get biglaw/A3 jobs. So around 1/3 of the people in their classes who are aiming for biglaw get it. That's a lot of grads with very successful outcomes. However, that means that 2/3 of those that want it don't get it. That's an even bigger number.

Even at Maryland, 16% get those jobs, which is enough that you will certainly find individuals who do very well.

However, it's generally not a good idea to go hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for a 37% or 16% chance of getting a job that can repay it. T14 is the only place where getting a biglaw/A3 job is more likely than not.

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guano
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby guano » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:11 pm

cotiger wrote:Of those three schools, Notre Dame is the best. After taking out PI/Gov people, 37% of the remainder get biglaw/A3 jobs. So around 1/3 of the people in their classes who are aiming for biglaw get it. That's a lot of grads with very successful outcomes. However, that means that 2/3 of those that want it don't get it. That's an even bigger number.

Even at Maryland, 16% get those jobs, which is enough that you will certainly find individuals who do very well.

However, it's generally not a good idea to go hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for a 37% or 16% chance of getting a job that can repay it. T14 is the only place where getting a biglaw/A3 job is more likely than not.

Those numbers for Notre Dame seem very high. Are you sure that's right?

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vuthy
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby vuthy » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:15 pm

Zeeguy91 wrote:I've known people who've gone to schools that are definitely out of the top 14, such as Washington & Lee, Notre Dame, and Maryland, and have all gotten really great jobs after graduating.


OP: With a decision this big, you really need to avoid confusing anecdotes with data.

BigZuck
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:19 pm

Tag for more logical fallacies

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cotiger
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Re: T10, T14, T15, or T20?

Postby cotiger » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:25 pm

guano wrote:
cotiger wrote:Of those three schools, Notre Dame is the best. After taking out PI/Gov people, 37% of the remainder get biglaw/A3 jobs. So around 1/3 of the people in their classes who are aiming for biglaw get it. That's a lot of grads with very successful outcomes. However, that means that 2/3 of those that want it don't get it. That's an even bigger number.

Even at Maryland, 16% get those jobs, which is enough that you will certainly find individuals who do very well.

However, it's generally not a good idea to go hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for a 37% or 16% chance of getting a job that can repay it. T14 is the only place where getting a biglaw/A3 job is more likely than not.

Those numbers for Notre Dame seem very high. Are you sure that's right?


That's after taking out PI/Gov people from the equation because those people are not trying to get biglaw. For instance, if School A has 25% of its students aiming for PI vs School B has only 5%, then a 65% biglaw+A3 result is going to be much more impressive for School A than School B (65/75=87% vs. 65/95=68%).

(BigLaw + A3) / (100 - PI - Gov - Academic + .25*SchoolFunded) * 100

All categories listed are for LTFT
Averaged over three years




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