George Mason Law - Employment Stats

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Nucky
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George Mason Law - Employment Stats

Postby Nucky » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:55 pm

Lots of TLSers have been quick to point out that GMU's FT/JD required employment numbers only hover slightly above 55%, and while true, the JD Advantage numbers are over 30%, and I cannot help but think that this is largely due to self-selection, and I assume, people wanting to work in government while not necessarily becoming lawyers.

GMU's 'Unemployed - Seeking' number is only 3.64%, which is excellent. Typically, schools with a 50-60% FT/JD rating have a 25%+ 'Unemployed-Seeking' numbers, which is scary.

Some are employed by the school in part-time positions, but it doesn't seem to be enough to skew the numbers by much.

FWIW, TLS' GMU Profile lists the median starting private sector salary as $150k(71% reporting), albeit for the c/o 2008.

Data seems to be kind of all over the place. Would love to hear some of your thoughts as I am considering attending.

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sublime
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Re: George Mason Law - Employment Stats

Postby sublime » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:59 pm

..

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Nucky
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Re: George Mason Law - Employment Stats

Postby Nucky » Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:19 pm

sublime wrote:Don't trust the salary info from 2008. Even on the other side of this site on school profiles that haven't been updated in awhile, you see schools claiming 99% employment with a $160k average.


Fair enough, and I pointed that out. But do you think it is a good bet? Obviously HYS is preferable, but it seems that over 90% of the class found jobs and I can't imagine the median private sector salary has dropped THAT much.

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rinkrat19
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Re: George Mason Law - Employment Stats

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:22 pm

Of the class of 2012, only 20 out of 220 grads got jobs at firms with 100 or more attorneys. Those are the jobs that allow people to pay back significant loans in a comfortable way.

54 out of 220 got "jobs" as solo or 2-10 attorney firms. It's a safe assumption that a fair number of these are desperate classmates teaming up in small groups to start their own firms, which is as risky as going solo (and more than likely to fail).

The 47 government jobs can also run the gamut of working for DOJ to joining the army or teaching public middle school (in the class of 2011, a bit over half of the govt jobs were JD required). It's impossible to tell how many of them are good outcomes, but I'd bet money it's not 100%.

33 grads are in "business and industry." Some of those are probably great JD/MBA or in-house jobs, but some of them are at Starbucks, or people who've gone back to the job they quit to go to law school in the hopes of getting something better. No way to tell.

From the class of 2011, 26% of the employed grads were seeking something better.

While there are only 8 unemployed-seeking, the number of shitty outcomes is virtually guaranteed to be a lot higher than that.

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Nucky
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Re: George Mason Law - Employment Stats

Postby Nucky » Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:49 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:Of the class of 2012, only 20 out of 220 grads got jobs at firms with 100 or more attorneys. Those are the jobs that allow people to pay back significant loans in a comfortable way.

54 out of 220 got "jobs" as solo or 2-10 attorney firms. It's a safe assumption that a fair number of these are desperate classmates teaming up in small groups to start their own firms, which is as risky as going solo (and more than likely to fail).

The 47 government jobs can also run the gamut of working for DOJ to joining the army or teaching public middle school (in the class of 2011, a bit over half of the govt jobs were JD required). It's impossible to tell how many of them are good outcomes, but I'd bet money it's not 100%.

33 grads are in "business and industry." Some of those are probably great JD/MBA or in-house jobs, but some of them are at Starbucks, or people who've gone back to the job they quit to go to law school in the hopes of getting something better. No way to tell.

From the class of 2011, 26% of the employed grads were seeking something better.

While there are only 8 unemployed-seeking, the number of shitty outcomes is virtually guaranteed to be a lot higher than that.



Those are good observations, but there is also a fair amount of speculation there. That is what is frustrating about their employment stats. Very difficult to make sense of it.

Also, their incoming class seems to have gotten considerably smaller than in 2011, which I interpret as being a good thing.

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UVAIce
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Re: George Mason Law - Employment Stats

Postby UVAIce » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:03 pm

I can't see things going well for GMU Law anytime soon. They are competing with GWU, GULC, UVA, W&M, W&L, and even the University of Richmond for the job market in VA and DC.

Realize that none of this has anything to do with GMU being a "good" or "bad" school in terms of the education you'll receive. You will, however, have a terribly difficult time trying to get that first job out of GMU Law.

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JCougar
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Re: George Mason Law - Employment Stats

Postby JCougar » Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:58 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:Of the class of 2012, only 20 out of 220 grads got jobs at firms with 100 or more attorneys.


OP, this is the only statistic you need to look at. About 10% of GMU grads get jobs paying six figures. Anyone or anything that tells you otherwise is a bald-faced lie.

Of the rest of the 90% of the class, there's no doubt a few good government, business, and boutique law firm jobs--but I doubt it's much more than another 20% or so. Even the JD Advantage jobs will qualify for 10-year IBR...but be careful...some of those government "jobs" are likely to be unpaid volunteers desperately seeking anything to put on their resume.

There is no way in hell more than 10% of the class is making six figures, though. If you think that the claim of median private sector salary being $150K is anything less than outright fraud, you're in for a big surprise.

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Nucky
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Re: George Mason Law - Employment Stats

Postby Nucky » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:15 am

JCougar wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:Of the class of 2012, only 20 out of 220 grads got jobs at firms with 100 or more attorneys.


OP, this is the only statistic you need to look at. About 10% of GMU grads get jobs paying six figures. Anyone or anything that tells you otherwise is a bald-faced lie.

Of the rest of the 90% of the class, there's no doubt a few good government, business, and boutique law firm jobs--but I doubt it's much more than another 20% or so. Even the JD Advantage jobs will qualify for 10-year IBR...but be careful...some of those government "jobs" are likely to be unpaid volunteers desperately seeking anything to put on their resume.

There is no way in hell more than 10% of the class is making six figures, though. If you think that the claim of median private sector salary being $150K is anything less than outright fraud, you're in for a big surprise.


I can't imagine the picture is quite as bleak as you make it given their past salary numbers, rank, region, etc. I did a bit more research and found that the mean private sector salary was $95k with the 75th percentile being 140k.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... class=2011

However, about a third of those who went private sector from GMU did not report their salary that year either. Who knows, could just be a privacy thing, a bad sign, or a mix of both. But, they were employed.

I don't doubt you have to work hard, graduate with good grades, network, etc. to succeed at a high level, but the same can be said no matter where you go. Of course some schools give you better odds than others, but different types go to different schools and I think GMU pulls a lot from the gov't/PI crowd. Their employment numbers seem to scream it. I am convinced there is a lot of self-selection at play here.

That being said, many of your points above are well-taken and I appreciate all the feedback!

Hopefully they throw me a good scholarship offer and/or I have better options at schools where I would have a better chance of reaching my goals. But, I'd love to live and practice in that part of the country. I think I would be willing to take my chances at GMU, given the data I have seen so far, as long as I can keep my debt manageable.




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