Top 20 MBA or Tier 3 Law School?

[Dr. Review]

The market is bad. The 0L who said the t-14 is the end all be all didn't take it far enough - the t-14 isn't a magical forum that makes it better than 15-25. At many of them literally 50% is screwed. It's t-14 or bust because 50% is a better deal than 10%. How was your GMAT, OP? I'm curious about the similarities between LSAT and GMAT.

If you're referring to me as the 0L, you're mistaken. I'm a 2013 grad.

[JCougar]

Bruce, please stop trolling the on-topics.

Eta: I mean, at least do the math right

I certainly hope you have a job lined up already and don't have to endure trying to find a job outside of OCI from the school you're at. Just for your own sanity's sake. Because I care about you, BigZuck. I do.

[BigZuck]

Bruce, please stop trolling the on-topics.

Eta: I mean, at least do the math right

I certainly hope you have a job lined up already and don't have to endure trying to find a job outside of OCI from the school you're at. Just for your own sanity's sake. Because I care about you, BigZuck. I do.

Nope, not that lucky. My fate is in the hands of the law school gods now.

All I'm saying is lets tone down the hyperbole, yes? You can make your point and at the same time not be dishonest. It's for the sake of the community dawg. People's lives are at stake here.

[jbagelboy]

There is basically no value to a non-M7 mba (maybe plus two or three other top programs) without a guaranteed offer (read: promotion worth 2 yrs salary and whatever debt you accrue) upon graduation from a prior/current employer.

There is basically no value to a T3 law degree unless you graduate top 10-20% of your class, depending on the school, or have a guaranteed offer to practice law, from a law firm, lined up for after graduation. Graduating top 10% of your class is by no means predictable in any way.

Obviously there at caveats, but this is the fundamental reality. You'll probably be best off promoting through your current position as far as you can go, retaking the LSAT for 170+, or trying again for a more employable b-school degree.

[JCougar]

Bruce, please stop trolling the on-topics.

Eta: I mean, at least do the math right

I certainly hope you have a job lined up already and don't have to endure trying to find a job outside of OCI from the school you're at. Just for your own sanity's sake. Because I care about you, BigZuck. I do.

Nope, not that lucky. My fate is in the hands of the law school gods now.

All I'm saying is lets tone down the hyperbole, yes? You can make your point and at the same time not be dishonest. It's for the sake of the community dawg. People's lives are at stake here.

I'm not really being all that hyperbolic. I know plenty of people who graduated with me at a T20 at the tail end of the top third of the class still looking and/or working temp jobs for like $15-20/hour...and it's now 8 months since graduation, and everyone has passed the bar. Some are working at a law library. Or doing unpaid volunteer work. Once you strike out at OCI (like I did) you just have to adjust your expectations and scratch and claw your way to any sort of work you can find. In the last month or two, it seems a few of them have had varying levels success, but many are still even without an unpaid volunteer gig. Some alumni are taking on like 4 volunteers at a time just to help out so that people have something on their resume. And all my friends who transferred into a T14 know plenty of classmates in the same boat. I know people from the T6 happy to have full-time, long-term shitlaw at this point.

That doesn't mean everyone who goes to law school is screwed. All it means is that paying sticker anywhere is a serious gamble. You should only take on as much debt as you'd be comfortable paying off with a $60K salary that you had to wait 12 months after graduation to obtain. In the 8 months since I've graduated, about $8,000 in interest has accrued on my loans. And I didn't even pay sticker, nor did I take out nearly what I could have for cost of living.

From here on out, though, the graduating classes will be getting smaller, so it may start to get easier to find shitlaw jobs. But who knows.

[Hipster but Athletic]

Could someone explain why Kelley is a bad idea? To me, it looks like a solid plan. Avg debt at graduation is 77k --that obviously includes in-state students who save 40k vs sticker out-of state, but the average scholarship amount is $22k, and I'm wondering and guessing that out-of-staters tend to get more schollies than the in-staters. That said, the salaries look pretty normally distributed w/ an avg at $101k and 95% receiving offers, which makes me think that your debt is serviceable immediately --and now you've given yourself the opportunity to make advancements that you couldn't before (albeit maybe not prestigious ones), and more importantly, get to work in a field that you're interested in.

[A. Nony Mouse]

All I'm saying is lets tone down the hyperbole, yes? You can make your point and at the same time not be dishonest. It's for the sake of the community dawg. People's lives are at stake here.

I'm not really being all that hyperbolic.

I get your overall point, I think it's just that when you start guesstimating very specific percentages it gets a little hard to swallow.

[JCougar]

All I'm saying is lets tone down the hyperbole, yes? You can make your point and at the same time not be dishonest. It's for the sake of the community dawg. People's lives are at stake here.

I'm not really being all that hyperbolic.

I get your overall point, I think it's just that when you start guesstimating very specific percentages it gets a little hard to swallow.

It's hard to do anything but guesstimate, since most law schools refuse to report each individual outcome (minus the name of the student). Vanderbilt does, and I think a few others in the T6 do. But the fact that other schools don't shows that they still have something to hide. But obviously, the numbers I'm giving are just a rough guess. Personally, only a small percentage of the people I know in the "business," "government," and "academic" categories have a job that can comfortably pay off their debts at this point.

I wish LSAC would just require each law graduate to report their specific job at graduation and 9 months out, and then produce independent reports of each school's employment outcomes. It would be nice if they tracked employment 5 and 10 years after graduation, too...maybe through the state bar associations, etc.

[reasonable_man]

I think from now on when I'm bored I'm going to go into a thread and say something like "62.8321% of all students at T14s are screwed - the numbers are unassailable" and just watch millennial-heads swivel right the fuck off of their shoulders. You guys are good time for sure.

Back to the topic at hand. Op. Don't go to law school. Just don't. You clearly lack connections (you're working at a car dealership) and the fact that you "thrived" in that setting is not going to just carry over into law. There are a good number of lawyers that are basically glorified used car dealers and you don't want that lifestyle:





The market for tier 3/4 grads is particularly bad right now (worse than its been in years). Don't do it.

As for the MBA, the list of the 7 schools you should attend (I'd also add NYU-Stern to the list) is pretty much spot-on. If you're not attending one of those schools, the return on investment (i.e. the networking opportunities and name recognition) falls far short of the $120K price-tag.

You've found something you're reasonably good at. Stick with that. Or maybe look for another job in a reasonable sized company. But don't think that adding an advanced degree is going to be the silver bullet that sets you down the path to success. 20 years ago, that logic was sound. Now, its a disaster waiting to happen.

Signed,

One of the 9 Tier 4 LS grads that made it

[JCougar]

An anonymous commenter from the Unemployed 3L thread posted this:

I don't even know where you guys are finding open positions.

I can't find more than 1 or 2 openings a month in SF/LA, and the ones I do find are either terrible fits for my resume or just plain terrible in general.

This is consistent with what I experienced looking for jobs post-OCI. The problem isn't applying for jobs and getting rejected. The real problem is finding jobs to apply to at all. You sit around unemployed having nothing to do all week, thinking that you have to make something of your time and be productive. So you tell yourself, "I'm going to apply for 50 jobs this week, and something will turn up!" Then you log on to Symplicity and find maybe 1 or 2 jobs at most in the last month that you can apply to. After 2 hours, you're done.

Then you scour indeed, monster, and the local bar association websites to find more jobs to apply to, and you might find 3 or 4 more in the last month, most of them being large shitlaw mills like Peter Frances Geraci or Wilson Elser that have turnover rates of like 75% per year. After about 4 hours, you've applied to every last open position in a three-state radius in the last month. You now have 30 more days to sit on your butt, watch Netflix, and try and re-email all the networking connections you made in the last two years to see if you have any leads or desperately look for local bar association networking events to attend. The worst thing about these networking events is that almost all practicing lawyers are aware of the terrible market, so they try to give you sympathy...which makes you feel even more like a loser. You don't want sympathy...sympathy is for the weak...you just want a job and something to do with your life.

Given the number of actual jobs to apply to versus the number of students nationally who struck out at OCI (about 90% of them), I am forced to conclude that the ABA's numbers showing 50% of graduates getting "full-time, long-term" jobs are overly optimistic.

If you go to a TTT law school, like the OP is considering, about 98% of his/her class will be looking for jobs from the same job bank the quoted poster is looking at. 20,000 or so unemployed law grads, 2 jobs.

[making34]

Appreciate all the responses. Law school seems like a resounding no. I have already maxed out my career progression in my current occupation of running a dealership (other than ownership) and my current job pays well for a 26 year old (W2 right at 150k last year). Although I am not on the front lines of our sales department now I am still very much working retail which is hell and not what I want to do for the next 25 years. My question now is why does the b-school have to be one of the top 7 considering where I want to work? Most of the companies I would like to work for have more employees from these regional b-schools than the M7. Also for who was wondering my GMAT is a 690 and GRE is a 320. Once again thanks for the responses.

[JCougar]

Very few of us have firsthand knowledge of MBA hiring, but from what I've experienced, it's much, much safer to get a job at a company with upward mobility first, work there for 3-4 years and get yourself established, and then (and only then) you should go for an MBA if they agree to hire you back into a better position after you're done. Or, if you can find a local alternative, find an evening/weekend program to attend while you're still working there--in this case, many companies will reimburse you for your tuition.

The only exception to the above rule should be getting into a top 7 or so program. Those are the only business schools that can punch above their weight in terms of getting you a position cold turkey with a company that you've never worked for before (or that can get you into consulting on a reliable basis).

[TheSpanishMain]

Cougar, this isn't an attempt at trolling or starting an e-war, but do you think there are ANY circumstances (outside of crazy scenarios like a full ride at Yale or something) where attending law school is a good idea? If so, what are they?

[JCougar]

Cougar, this isn't an attempt at trolling or starting an e-war, but do you think there are ANY circumstances (outside of crazy scenarios like a full ride at Yale or something) where attending law school is a good idea? If so, what are they?

Best school in the state you want to practice in for about $50-80K in total debt (depending on the average pay of law firms in that state)...or a school ranked approximately 10-25 for the same price. I'd pay closer to $100K for any school in the top 10 or so, but that's the limit.

So for example, the flagship state school in Nebraska would be fine if you want to practice in Nebraska, but I would only pay like $50K in debt for this tops. This means 1) in-state tuition at a public school should be about $10K/year, and your living expenses loans should be no more than $10K/year, and you should be clerking part time at a firm your entire third year to cover living expenses (not just because of cost, but because it's an incredibly good way to get a job). This equals $50K. You could make an argument for $80K of debt for a state flagship in a state with bigger legal markets that pay more, such as Illinois, etc.

It's more of a price thing for me, because even if you pay sticker at Harvard, it's going to require working in Biglaw to pay that off...and Biglaw jobs are generally terrible (although there are some people that seem to like them, so maybe that's okay for some, but it's definitely the minority). TLS kind of gets carried away with the "prestige" that biglaw offers, but it seems like kind of a miserable world once you have friends that start working there and can tell you first hand about the lifestyle. If you really want the freedom to work anywhere you want after you graduate, limiting your debt is just as important as increasing your "prestige." This way, you can look at JD-Advantage jobs in a positive light, since your debt isn't a cumbersome, emotionally-draining burden.

Also, you should plan on being lucky to have a job paying $50K/year at any school outside of the T10...and even for some people within the T10. The LST reports support this. There's a lot of people even at the best schools looking for work 9 months after graduation...much less having a job paying $60K. Plan your debt accordingly. The normal legal and non-JD job market pays around $40-60K to start. Biglaw should be seen as a freak abberation. Even the schools that place 50% of ther graduates there will see half of those people quit/fired from Biglaw within 4 years.

[rickgrimes69]

Cougar, this isn't an attempt at trolling or starting an e-war, but do you think there are ANY circumstances (outside of crazy scenarios like a full ride at Yale or something) where attending law school is a good idea? If so, what are they?

Best school in the state you want to practice in for about $50-80K in total debt (depending on the average pay of law firms in that state)...or a school ranked approximately 10-25 for the same price. I'd pay closer to $100K for any school in the top 10 or so, but that's the limit.

So for example, the flagship state school in Nebraska would be fine if you want to practice in Nebraska, but I would only pay like $50K in debt for this tops. This means 1) in-state tuition at a public school should be about $10K/year, and your living expenses loans should be no more than $10K/year, and you should be clerking part time at a firm your entire third year to cover living expenses (not just because of cost, but because it's an incredibly good way to get a job). This equals $50K. You could make an argument for $80K of debt for a state flagship in a state with bigger legal markets that pay more, such as Illinois, etc.

It's more of a price thing for me, because even if you pay sticker at Harvard, it's going to require working in Biglaw to pay that off...and Biglaw jobs are generally terrible (although there are some people that seem to like them, so maybe that's okay for some, but it's definitely the minority). TLS kind of gets carried away with the "prestige" that biglaw offers, but it seems like kind of a miserable world once you have friends that start working there and can tell you first hand about the lifestyle. If you really want the freedom to work anywhere you want after you graduate, limiting your debt is just as important as increasing your "prestige." This way, you can look at JD-Advantage jobs in a positive light, since your debt isn't a cumbersome, emotionally-draining burden.

Also, you should plan on being lucky to have a job paying $50K/year at any school outside of the T10...and even for some people within the T10. The LST reports support this. There's a lot of people even at the best schools looking for work 9 months after graduation...much less having a job paying $60K. Plan your debt accordingly. The normal legal and non-JD job market pays around $40-60K to start. Biglaw should be seen as a freak abberation. Even the schools that place 50% of ther graduates there will see half of those people quit/fired from Biglaw within 4 years.

+ 10 to JC for his egregious T10 trolling

Bonus points: Make the case that Michigan outperforms DNC in any area of desirable employment outside of P.I.

[jbagelboy]

Cougar, this isn't an attempt at trolling or starting an e-war, but do you think there are ANY circumstances (outside of crazy scenarios like a full ride at Yale or something) where attending law school is a good idea? If so, what are they?

Best school in the state you want to practice in for about $50-80K in total debt (depending on the average pay of law firms in that state)...or a school ranked approximately 10-25 for the same price. I'd pay closer to $100K for any school in the top 10 or so, but that's the limit.

So for example, the flagship state school in Nebraska would be fine if you want to practice in Nebraska, but I would only pay like $50K in debt for this tops. This means 1) in-state tuition at a public school should be about $10K/year, and your living expenses loans should be no more than $10K/year, and you should be clerking part time at a firm your entire third year to cover living expenses (not just because of cost, but because it's an incredibly good way to get a job). This equals $50K. You could make an argument for $80K of debt for a state flagship in a state with bigger legal markets that pay more, such as Illinois, etc.

It's more of a price thing for me, because even if you pay sticker at Harvard, it's going to require working in Biglaw to pay that off...and Biglaw jobs are generally terrible (although there are some people that seem to like them, so maybe that's okay for some, but it's definitely the minority). TLS kind of gets carried away with the "prestige" that biglaw offers, but it seems like kind of a miserable world once you have friends that start working there and can tell you first hand about the lifestyle. If you really want the freedom to work anywhere you want after you graduate, limiting your debt is just as important as increasing your "prestige." This way, you can look at JD-Advantage jobs in a positive light, since your debt isn't a cumbersome, emotionally-draining burden.

Also, you should plan on being lucky to have a job paying $50K/year at any school outside of the T10...and even for some people within the T10. The LST reports support this. There's a lot of people even at the best schools looking for work 9 months after graduation...much less having a job paying $60K. Plan your debt accordingly. The normal legal and non-JD job market pays around $40-60K to start. Biglaw should be seen as a freak abberation. Even the schools that place 50% of ther graduates there will see half of those people quit/fired from Biglaw within 4 years.

How are you qualified to make these generalizations about large firm work? That is, aside from reading TLS? Just curious

Law school is fucked up and its generally a bad investment for most people. But a lot of this seems like recycled rhetoric and bland hyperbole. I agree with your statements wrt regional schools and debt, but this whole apocalyptic notion that even the best law schools (and your definition of best is clearly flawed) have only 50% success and those successes are doomed anyway in the up and out isn't justified.

[JCougar]

but this whole apocalyptic notion that even the best law schools (and your definition of best is clearly flawed) have only 50% success and those successes are doomed anyway in the up and out isn't justified.

Of course, that's not what I said. Obviously not all successes are doomed anyway. Some can manage to pay off all their debts in those 3-5 years in Biglaw. In my experience, most don't. And of course, some are able to stick it out. I happen to know quite a few people that went the Biglaw rout many years ago.

Biglaw being a terrible work environment is hardly anything new. The only reason anyone puts up with it is the money...which wouldn't be a factor if you didn't take out sticker-level debt.

Also, the fact that 67% of associates are bounced from Biglaw after 5 years is a simple fact that's been reported many times (it was closer to 75% a few years ago).

And even within the T10, there are schools where about 20% of the class is either unemployed, emplopyed part-time, employed in a non-JD preferred job, and/or in a school-funded job, and another large chunk is working in shitlaw or the ever-expanding definition of "business". It's easily verifiable that ending up in the bottom half of the class gets very dicey.

I'm actually not sure what you are disputing.

[JCougar]

Law school is fucked up and its generally a bad investment for most people.

In fact, this is all I'm really saying...with the caveat that going to a high-ranked school (no matter how high) while still paying sticker is not some kind of magic insulation against it being a bad investment.

[BigZuck]

Cougar, this isn't an attempt at trolling or starting an e-war, but do you think there are ANY circumstances (outside of crazy scenarios like a full ride at Yale or something) where attending law school is a good idea? If so, what are they?

Best school in the state you want to practice in for about $50-80K in total debt (depending on the average pay of law firms in that state)...or a school ranked approximately 10-25 for the same price. I'd pay closer to $100K for any school in the top 10 or so, but that's the limit.

So for example, the flagship state school in Nebraska would be fine if you want to practice in Nebraska, but I would only pay like $50K in debt for this tops. This means 1) in-state tuition at a public school should be about $10K/year, and your living expenses loans should be no more than $10K/year, and you should be clerking part time at a firm your entire third year to cover living expenses (not just because of cost, but because it's an incredibly good way to get a job). This equals $50K. You could make an argument for $80K of debt for a state flagship in a state with bigger legal markets that pay more, such as Illinois, etc.

It's more of a price thing for me, because even if you pay sticker at Harvard, it's going to require working in Biglaw to pay that off...and Biglaw jobs are generally terrible (although there are some people that seem to like them, so maybe that's okay for some, but it's definitely the minority). TLS kind of gets carried away with the "prestige" that biglaw offers, but it seems like kind of a miserable world once you have friends that start working there and can tell you first hand about the lifestyle. If you really want the freedom to work anywhere you want after you graduate, limiting your debt is just as important as increasing your "prestige." This way, you can look at JD-Advantage jobs in a positive light, since your debt isn't a cumbersome, emotionally-draining burden.

Also, you should plan on being lucky to have a job paying $50K/year at any school outside of the T10...and even for some people within the T10. The LST reports support this. There's a lot of people even at the best schools looking for work 9 months after graduation...much less having a job paying $60K. Plan your debt accordingly. The normal legal and non-JD job market pays around $40-60K to start. Biglaw should be seen as a freak abberation. Even the schools that place 50% of ther graduates there will see half of those people quit/fired from Biglaw within 4 years.

+ 10 to JC for his egregious T10 trolling

Bonus points: Make the case that Michigan outperforms DNC in any area of desirable employment outside of P.I.

Get a grip Rick. Everyone knows that Duke students are fucked and Michigan students are living on easy street. It's not our fault you made a bad law school decision. Shoulda gone to a T10 bro. DEAL WITH IT.

Also, how come I did exactly what Cougar said (50-80K debt in the best school of the state you want to practice in. It also happens to be ranked 15th, which to him is somehow meaningful apparently) and yet he ad homed me anyway?

[JCougar]

How did I ad hom you?

Also, throwing out the "T10" thing was just sort of off the cuff. It's impossible to draw any meaningful line anywhere. If you want to be really accurate, I guess you just have to say "Yale, and it just gets incrimentally worse from there." Satisfied?

[BigZuck]

How did I ad hom you?

Also, throwing out the "T10" thing was just sort of off the cuff. It's impossible to draw any meaningful line anywhere. If you want to be really accurate, I guess you just have to say "Yale, and it just gets incrimentally worse from there." Satisfied?

The job thing. Also, no.

Look, most reasonable bros here agree with the general message. I'm probably more pessamistic/negative than Rick and Bagel, and I find what you post to be wildly offensive because its incredibly out of touch and seems to be an attempt to lead people astray. It's the hyperbole and the twisted logic that people beef with. It's just not helpful.

[JCougar]

How did I ad hom you?

Also, throwing out the "T10" thing was just sort of off the cuff. It's impossible to draw any meaningful line anywhere. If you want to be really accurate, I guess you just have to say "Yale, and it just gets incrimentally worse from there." Satisfied?

The job thing. Also, no.

Look, most reasonable bros here agree with the general message. I'm probably more pessamistic/negative than Rick and Bagel, and I find what you post to be wildly offensive because its incredibly out of touch and seems to be an attempt to lead people astray. It's the hyperbole and the twisted logic that people beef with. It's just not helpful.

The job thing wasn't an ad hom at all. Jeez. If you're that good at portraying people as victims at the hands of an innocent, factual remark, maybe you should apply for a job at a plaintiff's firm. All I said was that I don't wish the post-graduation job market on anybody, including you. That wasn't meant to be insulting. I also made zero remarks about the prudence of your law school choice or the price you paid (I had no idea about the latter, so how could I?). It's a good decision on your part that you have a debt load that will help you manage.

I'm just stating some advice. The sooner you realize what a grind it is to find a job outside of OCI, the better.

You think I am "hyperbolic" and "offensive," but perhaps my attitude has helped me. The more "negative" (I would call it "realistic") outlook you have about your own situation, the more motivated you are to start doing what you need to do to secure something. After striking out at OCI, I immediately implemented an "all of the above" strategy when it came to getting a job...networking, going to conferences, doing a good job with my journal, organizing speaking events in my field, moderating panels, joining bar associations and other legal organizations, seeking out advice from practicing attorneys on what kinds of skills they value most, using my backgroud to my advantage, etc. Then I finally got the word that possibly my #1 employer was willing to hire me, but then I got sequester-fucked...at least for now. That appears to be coming to an end. In the meantime, I experienced the vast desert that is the post-graduation legal job market, where getting a temp job at $20/hour was considered a huge victory, despite all the work I mentioned above.

Even at schools like yours, post-OCI jobs will not come easily, and ignoring all other detalis, you have about a 60/40 shot among those who don't have something locked up already to find something. Maybe you already have a strategy worked out...I don't know. Good luck. I mean it.

[rickgrimes69]

How did I ad hom you?

Also, throwing out the "T10" thing was just sort of off the cuff. It's impossible to draw any meaningful line anywhere. If you want to be really accurate, I guess you just have to say "Yale, and it just gets incrimentally worse from there." Satisfied?

HYS >>>>> T13 > G

Was that so hard