Highest percentages of BigLaw/A3 after accounting for Gov/PI Forum

[cotiger]

In a lot of these threads, self-selection into Gov/PI gets brought up as a confounding factor when looking at BigLaw/A3 stats alone. This is particularly due to the fact that in order to get PI you often need to be aiming for it the whole time, and so it can't really be seen as a fallback from not getting BigLaw. Because of that, I thought it might be helpful to remove Gov/PI students completely from the equation in order to see which schools place the highest percentage of their non-PI students into highly desirable outcomes.

Two notes first, though:
1. There are, of course, some business/industry outcomes that are just as highly desired as BigLaw/A3. If a school has a higher number of grads taking those kinds of jobs, then they will be a little lower down in this list than they should be. I think this affects the ratings of YHS (MBB consulting gigs) and Northwestern, which has 10% of its students going into business/industry, compared to an average of 4% for the rest of the T14 (considering NU's focus, I doubt that all of that extra 6% is less desired than BigLaw/A3).

2. I wasn't exactly sure what to do with FTLT Academic jobs. On the one hand, they take extremely high grades to get (and so could be thought of in the mold of A3 clerkships). However, it's tough to justify the huge uncertainty of an entry-level legal academic as an elite job outcome. Also, I'm just not exactly sure what goes into that category. I therefore decided to exclude those jobs from the denominator along with the PI gigs. This doesn't really affect any school much except for Yale, anyways.

Without further ado, here are the numbers for T14 + Vandy/USC/UCLA/Texas
All numbers are three year averages

Stanford - 86%
Columbia - 85%
Harvard - 80%
NYU - 80%
Yale - 79%
Penn - 76%
Chicago - 76%
Cornell - 71%
UVA - 70%
Berkeley - 69%
Duke - 67%
Northwestern - 64%
Michigan - 62%
Georgetown - 54%

Vanderbilt - 46%
USC - 41%
UCLA - 41%
Texas - 40%

[hunter.d]

This doesn't include gov't jobs right? A similar argument could be made for the competitiveness of those jobs depending on what type they are. USAO's and prestigious Fed Agencies are often times at least as competitive as Biglaw.

[cotiger]

This doesn't include gov't jobs right? A similar argument could be made for the competitiveness of those jobs depending on what type they are. USAO's and prestigious Fed Agencies are often times at least as competitive as Biglaw.

Sorry, to be clear I included government jobs along with PI.

[cotiger]

A couple of thoughts:

1. This is some very strong evidence for the notion that if all you're looking for is a regular biglaw job, then Columbia is on the same level as YHS.

2. There is a clear (though small) difference between T6+Penn and the lower T14 for biglaw hiring.

3. There is another clear (though again very small) difference between Michigan and the rest of the lower T14 (excluding GULC) that can't be explained away by PI/Gov self-selection. In my mental accounting, I boost NU by 2-3 points to account for their excessive business focus.

4. There is a significant difference between GULC and schools ranked just above it in terms of biglaw hiring that can't be explained by PI/Gov self-selection, and an equally significant difference between GULC and the schools ranked just below it.

[Tiago Splitter]

Good work. Next step: figuring out how much each additional percentage point is worth.

[sighsigh]

This is particularly due to the fact that in order to get PI you often need to be aiming for it the whole time, and so it can't really be seen as a fallback from not getting BigLaw.

I'm quite skeptical about this. The only time I can see PI (which I'm including Gov into, as you did) as not being a fallback option is if you got a biglaw position your 2L summer, and then got no-offered. Then, yes, it would be very difficult to convince the PI places that PI is your first choice. (A lot of people were being no-offered right after the crash, so there was a lot of worry about this). But if you just got low grades after 1L or struck out after 2L OCI, there's still plenty of time to readjust your gears and do something PI-oriented your 2L (or even 1L) summer, isn't there?

It would be great if someone knowledgeable could comment on this.

[cotiger]

This is particularly due to the fact that in order to get PI you often need to be aiming for it the whole time, and so it can't really be seen as a fallback from not getting BigLaw.

I'm quite skeptical about this. The only time I can see PI (which I'm including Gov into, as you did) as not being a fallback option is if you got a biglaw position your 2L summer, and then got no-offered. Then, yes, it would be very difficult to convince the PI places that PI is your first choice. (A lot of people were being no-offered right after the crash, so there was a lot of worry about this). But if you just got low grades after 1L or struck out after 2L OCI, there's still plenty of time to readjust your gears and do something PI-oriented your 2L (or even 1L) summer, isn't there?

It would be great if someone knowledgeable could comment on this.

My statement was for sure a bit too strongly worded. The point was that in general PI is not something that is easy/typical for biglaw-oriented people to transition into after striking out a OCI or getting no-offered. Especially with the hiring freezes, it tends to require a longer-term demonstration of "dedication to the cause" and hustling/networking that corporate-focused aspirants would be at a disadvantage for. Additionally, people who want to be big corporate lawyers doing M&A work most likely don't decide to aim to be a public defender immediately after striking out at OCI, which is what they would need to do in order to get the experience to get that kind of job.

Which is why I say that in general, people who go into PI are different and can be taken out of the equation when looking at biglaw success rates. If anything, I've heard that people tend to go into law school aiming for PI but then end up in biglaw, rather than the other way around.

I'm just a 0L with no actual experience. I've gotten most of my information on the subject from people like twenty and the other people in this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=220431

[worldtraveler]

This is particularly due to the fact that in order to get PI you often need to be aiming for it the whole time, and so it can't really be seen as a fallback from not getting BigLaw.

I'm quite skeptical about this. The only time I can see PI (which I'm including Gov into, as you did) as not being a fallback option is if you got a biglaw position your 2L summer, and then got no-offered. Then, yes, it would be very difficult to convince the PI places that PI is your first choice. (A lot of people were being no-offered right after the crash, so there was a lot of worry about this). But if you just got low grades after 1L or struck out after 2L OCI, there's still plenty of time to readjust your gears and do something PI-oriented your 2L (or even 1L) summer, isn't there?

It would be great if someone knowledgeable could comment on this.

You're really understimating the credentials it takes to get a PI job. The market is incredibly competitive, espeically given that non-profits and government have had their budgets slashed in recent years. If you did absolutely nothing PI related 1L year and 1L summer, you will probably not be able to turn that around and be competitive for any place hiring entry level jobs and definitely wouldn't have the credentials for a fellowship. You also usually need language skills and experience before law school.

I'm sure there are some people who do it, but there really are distinct tracks in law school and it's incredibly difficult to move among them. If you strike out at OCI, getting small firm jobs or some government jobs is an attainable goal, and PI might be possible if you had the resume for it anyway, but that is a rare person (personally, I've never seen it happen).

[hunter.d]

TLS will always have a bias for Biglaw and 0L's commenting on it can't really grasp the fact that 1) a healthy portion of every T14 class does not want Biglaw at all and likely self-selects out even if they had the grades to land a job through OCI and 2) Many PI jobs and prestigious government jobs are at least as competitive as Biglaw and select based on grades and very specific demonstrated interest. This is echoing the poster above and OP.

[hunter.d]

Also, this is just compounded in recent years with all of the public interest loan forgiveness plans. You don't need Biglaw anymore to pay off your loans if you can get a PI job so if that's what you really want there's nothing stopping you from really going after it from day one.

[Tiago Splitter]

The downside of looking at the data this way is that it might give a little too much credit to the schools where school-funded jobs fall into the PI/Gov category, as they often do. You're essentially taking someone who struck out at OCI and went into a school funded job out of the denominator.

[cotiger]

The downside of looking at the data this way is that it might give a little too much credit to the schools where school-funded jobs fall into the PI/Gov category, as they often do. You're essentially taking someone who struck out at OCI and went into a school funded job out of the denominator.

Right. Just like I'd mentally adjust upwards HYS 1 point and NU 2-3, I'd also adjust downward schools (UVA) who likely have a greater number of BS school funded jobs than average.

Still, the advantage of this method is that we only have to make subtle tweaks to the data rather than estimate adjustments wholesale.

[worldtraveler]

The downside of looking at the data this way is that it might give a little too much credit to the schools where school-funded jobs fall into the PI/Gov category, as they often do. You're essentially taking someone who struck out at OCI and went into a school funded job out of the denominator.

Right. Just like I'd mentally adjust upwards HYS 1 point and NU 2-3, I'd also adjust downward schools (UVA) who likely have a greater number of BS school funded jobs than average.

Still, the advantage of this method is that we only have to make subtle tweaks to the data rather than estimate adjustments wholesale.

School funded fellowships aren't equal across all schools. Some of them have programs for people dedicated to PI/Gov only and others are just for anyone without a job, so you'd really have to research it to know, and I don't know if everyone makes their criteria public knowledge.

[thewaves]

I'm not sure why you excluded academia when you admitted it takes top grades.

[sublime]

..

[gnuwheels]

lol Michigan.

[ScottRiqui]

I'm not sure why you excluded academia when you admitted it takes top grades.

I think his post explained the rationale pretty well - in addition to not making a significant difference in the numbers anywhere but Yale, entry-level teaching encompasses such a wide range of outcomes that's it's hard to objectively classify it as highly desirable.

[cotiger]

School funded fellowships aren't equal across all schools. Some of them have programs for people dedicated to PI/Gov only and others are just for anyone without a job, so you'd really have to research it to know, and I don't know if everyone makes their criteria public knowledge.

There are relatively few schools with much of a fellowship program. YH CCN UVA, and GULC are the only schools that have greater than 2% of their grads in these programs. I think it's pretty safe to assume YH's are legitimately for PI people and not just strike-out shelters for jobless grads. NYU and GULC have strong PI focuses, so I'm not particularly suspicious of their fellowship programs.

Chicago and UVA, on the other hand, had extremely large shifts into PI (increases of 10%+) during the crash year of C/O 2011 that were subsequently reversed (almost completely, in Chicago's case) the next year when hiring picked back up. Also, UVA has the lowest underemployment score in the country, significantly lower than YHS, not to mention its peer schools. That makes me suspicious that some of those fellowships are open to the generally jobless rather than just the PI-dedicated.

Columbia had a fairly large increase in PI of 8% between those two years, but then followed that up with another 2.5% increase for C/O 2012. That, combined with TLS anecdotes about Columbia trying to boost its PI program, makes me less suspicious than I am about UVA and Chicago that those PI gigs are being used as shelters.

If we were to estimate, then, that as many as 40% of UVA's fellowships were going to jobless private-sector-desiring people, that would reduce their score by four points down to 66. Saying that 1/3 of Chicago's house people not truly desiring PI reduces their score by two points to 74, and estimating 1/4 of Columbia's do the same reduces their score by two points to 83.

[ScottRiqui]

cotiger,

Are the percentages in your first post the summation of the biglaw and A3 clerkship percentages? I found a similar article (LinkRemoved) ranking schools by "elite" outcomes, in which the author used A3 clerkships and 101+ firm jobs as the desirable outcomes. His ranking turned out significantly different (in particular, there's a difference of 15 percentage points for Yale, and almost 20 points for Columbia). Can you comment on the differences?

[09042014]

Most PI, and many gov jobs are objectively terrible.

You might as count shitlaw private firm jobs too.

[cotiger]

I'm not sure why you excluded academia when you admitted it takes top grades.

I think his post explained the rationale pretty well - in addition to not making a significant difference in the numbers anywhere but Yale, entry-level teaching encompasses such a wide range of outcomes that's it's hard to objectively classify it as highly desirable.

Yeah, if you want to include it along with BigLaw/A3 rather than taking it out of the equation along with PI/Gov, then Yale, Berkeley, Duke, GULC, UCLA, and USC would all increase by one point. If it floats your boat..

Egregious WUSTL trolling

Just calculated WUSTL's: 30%

[cotiger]

cotiger,

Are the percentages in your first post the summation of the biglaw and A3 clerkship percentages? I found a similar article (LinkRemoved) ranking schools by "elite" outcomes, in which the author used A3 clerkships and 101+ firm jobs as the desirable outcomes. His ranking turned out significantly different (in particular, there's a difference of 15 percentage points for Yale, and almost 20 points for Columbia). Can you comment on the differences?

Sure. Here are the differences:

First, I took PI/Gov jobs out of the equation (i.e. out of the denominator) to account for self-selection. If 1/4 of School A wants to go into PI, then the highest biglaw/A3 percentage it could have would be 75%, whereas if only 5% of School B wants to go into PI, then the highest percentage it could have would be 95%. It would then be much more impressive for School A to get 65% of its grads into biglaw or A3 (65/75=87% of those aiming for it) than it would be for 70% of School B to get those same jobs (70/95=74%). That author is just looking at the 70% vs 65% in this example and saying that 70% is better.

Second, that author bizarrely subtracts the number of fellowships from the number of biglaw/A3 positions. Which makes no sense because they aren't related. Certainly not in any way that subtraction would properly account for it.

Lastly, my numbers are three year averages, those are just for C/O 2012.

[lawschool22]

Chart made from cotiger's data. Really does show the different "levels" within the T14.

[cotiger]

Chart made from cotiger's data. Really does show the different "levels" within the T14.

Don't forgot about Stanford!

[lawschool22]

Chart made from cotiger's data. Really does show the different "levels" within the T14.

Don't forgot about Stanford!

Man I don't know how I left them off since they're in my data. Fixing now!

Edit: Fixed my prior post.