What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
bombaysippin
Posts: 1977
Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:11 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby bombaysippin » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:24 pm

Krahn86 wrote:
stillwater wrote:i heard GULC is like a vicious fight to the death as its 6000 students try to devour the couple of thousand meals thrown into their lion's den.


I had to look...total student body looks to be just under 2,000...so a "couple thousand meals" should be plenty.


Psh, who only eats 1 meal?!

03152016
Posts: 9189
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby 03152016 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:38 pm

Any NYU students around to speak on this?

User avatar
john1990
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:49 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby john1990 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:26 am

twenty wrote:"Competitive" is a huge misnomer. Seriously, how is a law student going to compete with you? Hide stuff in the library that is easily available online? Refuse to give you notes for the class you missed when you can get an entire outline from the student group you're part of? "Study harder?"

I enjoy watching the NU TLSers. They exude a very entertaining combination of laid-back trollishness, hyper-sensitivity, and fatalistic sarcasm -- often all at the same time. That said, I wouldn't assume NU itself exhibits any of these personalities on an overarching basis.


They compete by spending more time studying. OP means which schools study the most and are hardest to excel in

User avatar
twenty
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby twenty » Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:39 pm

john1990 wrote:
twenty wrote:"Competitive" is a huge misnomer. Seriously, how is a law student going to compete with you? Hide stuff in the library that is easily available online? Refuse to give you notes for the class you missed when you can get an entire outline from the student group you're part of? "Study harder?"

I enjoy watching the NU TLSers. They exude a very entertaining combination of laid-back trollishness, hyper-sensitivity, and fatalistic sarcasm -- often all at the same time. That said, I wouldn't assume NU itself exhibits any of these personalities on an overarching basis.


They compete by spending more time studying. OP means which schools study the most and are hardest to excel in


Please don't peddle your bullshit on other people's threads, you end up wrecking them.

User avatar
sandwich
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:11 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby sandwich » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:27 pm

twenty wrote:
john1990 wrote:
twenty wrote:"Competitive" is a huge misnomer. Seriously, how is a law student going to compete with you? Hide stuff in the library that is easily available online? Refuse to give you notes for the class you missed when you can get an entire outline from the student group you're part of? "Study harder?"

I enjoy watching the NU TLSers. They exude a very entertaining combination of laid-back trollishness, hyper-sensitivity, and fatalistic sarcasm -- often all at the same time. That said, I wouldn't assume NU itself exhibits any of these personalities on an overarching basis.


They compete by spending more time studying. OP means which schools study the most and are hardest to excel in


Please don't peddle your bullshit on other people's threads, you end up wrecking them.



I'm honestly a little confused here. Twenty, you're seriously one of the best people on the planet in my opinion, but I also took the OP to mean exactly what john1990 thought.

When I think of a competitive school, I think of SOMETHING LIKE a school where it's difficult to excel because everyone studies much harder. Like, I figure that if a school is 'competitive', the students 'in general' are all trying to excel and so the average scores are higher and so good grades are harder to come by on a curve. I mean, I'm totally just a dorky 0L, so what do I know? But there's definitely (in my opinion) a way for a given class to be more or less competitive, and part of that is what was described in the rest of this thread: it can manifest as peer sabotage, it can manifest as people caring a whole lot about their grades and, say, getting totally bummed about an A- or something, it can manifest by people not sharing notes or working together, etc. But I also feel like the most likely/universal byproduct of this is how much people study... someone who is more competitive will likely spend more time studying, i think? And if there are more people who do this, that school in general will be harder to excel in, right? Or am I also just peddling bullshit... which is very possible! But I also wouldn't mind being set straight if I'm super wrong about everything :) thanks twenty! and everyone!

User avatar
jbagelboy
Posts: 9635
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:47 pm

sandwich wrote:
twenty wrote:
john1990 wrote:
twenty wrote:"Competitive" is a huge misnomer. Seriously, how is a law student going to compete with you? Hide stuff in the library that is easily available online? Refuse to give you notes for the class you missed when you can get an entire outline from the student group you're part of? "Study harder?"

I enjoy watching the NU TLSers. They exude a very entertaining combination of laid-back trollishness, hyper-sensitivity, and fatalistic sarcasm -- often all at the same time. That said, I wouldn't assume NU itself exhibits any of these personalities on an overarching basis.


They compete by spending more time studying. OP means which schools study the most and are hardest to excel in


Please don't peddle your bullshit on other people's threads, you end up wrecking them.



I'm honestly a little confused here. Twenty, you're seriously one of the best people on the planet in my opinion, but I also took the OP to mean exactly what john1990 thought.

When I think of a competitive school, I think of SOMETHING LIKE a school where it's difficult to excel because everyone studies much harder. Like, I figure that if a school is 'competitive', the students 'in general' are all trying to excel and so the average scores are higher and so good grades are harder to come by on a curve. I mean, I'm totally just a dorky 0L, so what do I know? But there's definitely (in my opinion) a way for a given class to be more or less competitive, and part of that is what was described in the rest of this thread: it can manifest as peer sabotage, it can manifest as people caring a whole lot about their grades and, say, getting totally bummed about an A- or something, it can manifest by people not sharing notes or working together, etc. But I also feel like the most likely/universal byproduct of this is how much people study... someone who is more competitive will likely spend more time studying, i think? And if there are more people who do this, that school in general will be harder to excel in, right? Or am I also just peddling bullshit... which is very possible! But I also wouldn't mind being set straight if I'm super wrong about everything :) thanks twenty! and everyone!


It's not the advice itself so much as that poster is a known troll who should stick to his own bullshit threads, or better yet, close his account and do something more instructive with his life. Sure, schools with substantially higher student quality (as measured by LSAT, undergrad university and coursework, ect.) will be more "competitive" as far as the curve is concerned, but this is only relevant outside a standard deviation of excellence. A few LSAT questions or one or two less bad grades freshmen year of college (the differences between any top schools' median and another) don't really indicate shit about student quality. So yea, I'm just not seeing meaningful distinctions here within the T14.

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby kapital98 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:48 pm

@Sandwich: That's what I understood from OP too.

However, it really doesn't matter. This is TCR:

BigZuck wrote:Competitiveness of T14s don't matter for the reason Nelson said. Go to the best t14 for your career (meaning best job prospects for you in the area you want to work balanced with concerns over cost).

After you have decided what that school is, don't then discount it and choose a different, less fitting school because of some preconceived notion you have about how competitive that most fitting school is.


I've studied at two different schools, one T14 and one T1. They are both equally competitive when it comes to people working hard. The T14 may be a little more difficult, due to competition, but it's not really noticeable. Picking out schools based on competition, and the apparent edge in getting better grades, is pointless.

NYstate
Posts: 1566
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:44 am

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby NYstate » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:49 pm

How would people know how hard people study at other schools? I think they are about the same. And each school will have its share of students who do extremely well without working that hard.

Why do you care OP? It isn't as if employers at going to be impressed by some supposed idea that students from one school study more than the other. It is your own grades that matter and the curve is the great equalizer.
Last edited by NYstate on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby Nelson » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:49 pm

sandwich wrote:When I think of a competitive school, I think of SOMETHING LIKE a school where it's difficult to excel because everyone studies much harder. Like, I figure that if a school is 'competitive', the students 'in general' are all trying to excel and so the average scores are higher and so good grades are harder to come by on a curve. I mean, I'm totally just a dorky 0L, so what do I know? But there's definitely (in my opinion) a way for a given class to be more or less competitive, and part of that is what was described in the rest of this thread: it can manifest as peer sabotage, it can manifest as people caring a whole lot about their grades and, say, getting totally bummed about an A- or something, it can manifest by people not sharing notes or working together, etc. But I also feel like the most likely/universal byproduct of this is how much people study... someone who is more competitive will likely spend more time studying, i think? And if there are more people who do this, that school in general will be harder to excel in, right? Or am I also just peddling bullshit... which is very possible! But I also wouldn't mind being set straight if I'm super wrong about everything :) thanks twenty! and everyone!

Why would this vary from school to school? Guess what, most people work hard in law school. All of the T14s are filled primarily with Type A strivers who work hard by nature. But it's roughly the same group of people at all of them.

ZVBXRPL
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:15 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby ZVBXRPL » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:52 pm

john1990 wrote:
twenty wrote:"Competitive" is a huge misnomer. Seriously, how is a law student going to compete with you? Hide stuff in the library that is easily available online? Refuse to give you notes for the class you missed when you can get an entire outline from the student group you're part of? "Study harder?"

I enjoy watching the NU TLSers. They exude a very entertaining combination of laid-back trollishness, hyper-sensitivity, and fatalistic sarcasm -- often all at the same time. That said, I wouldn't assume NU itself exhibits any of these personalities on an overarching basis.


They compete by spending more time studying. OP means which schools study the most and are hardest to excel in

I don't mean which students study the hardest. That's pretty hard to figure out, even if you know people at all 14 schools. I'm wondering about gunning, douchiness, competition for the professors' attention (if this exists) aka butt kissing, and student to student relations because environment and psychology is important imo. In other words, at what schools will a student be more willing to go out of their way for another. Perhaps there is no way to answer this question. But I guess stories about students at X school will help form some sort of opinion.
Last edited by ZVBXRPL on Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby kapital98 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:52 pm

NYstate wrote:How would people know how hard people study at other schools? I think they are about the same. And each school will have its share of students who do extremely well without working that hard.


Purely anecdotal evidence and myths passed down from class to class. It's BS and certainly not worth consideration regarding your legal education.

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby kapital98 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:57 pm

ZVBXRPL wrote:I don't mean which students study the hardest. That's pretty hard to figure out, even if you know people at all 14 schools. I'm wondering about gunning, douchiness, competition for the professors' attention (if this exists) aka butt kissing, and student to student relations because environment and psychology is important imo. In other words, at what schools will a student be more willing to go out of their way for another. Perhaps there is no way to answer this question. But I guess stories about students at X school will help form some sort of opinion.


You'll never get a real answer. The T1 I went to had a bad reputation for ripping pages out of books, etc, etc. None of that stuff ever happened. Rumors spread like wildfires in law school and nothing like that ever came up. Most people are competitive but relatively polite. There will always be a small group of annoying gunners (and cliques).

ZVBXRPL
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:15 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby ZVBXRPL » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:03 pm

kapital98 wrote:
ZVBXRPL wrote:I don't mean which students study the hardest. That's pretty hard to figure out, even if you know people at all 14 schools. I'm wondering about gunning, douchiness, competition for the professors' attention (if this exists) aka butt kissing, and student to student relations because environment and psychology is important imo. In other words, at what schools will a student be more willing to go out of their way for another. Perhaps there is no way to answer this question. But I guess stories about students at X school will help form some sort of opinion.


You'll never get a real answer. The T1 I went to had a bad reputation for ripping pages out of books, etc, etc. None of that stuff ever happened. Rumors spread like wildfires in law school and nothing like that ever came up. Most people are competitive but relatively polite. There will always be a small group of annoying gunners (and cliques).

Good point. I keep hearing about Columbia's competitiveness. But it's true, law school is part of life. And since a number of variables can account for passivity and aggressiveness, there's no way to accurately label or predict the amount of competitiveness. I guess I just wanted to hear gossip about T14. Shame on me.

User avatar
john1990
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:49 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby john1990 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:04 pm

twenty wrote:
john1990 wrote:
twenty wrote:"Competitive" is a huge misnomer. Seriously, how is a law student going to compete with you? Hide stuff in the library that is easily available online? Refuse to give you notes for the class you missed when you can get an entire outline from the student group you're part of? "Study harder?"

I enjoy watching the NU TLSers. They exude a very entertaining combination of laid-back trollishness, hyper-sensitivity, and fatalistic sarcasm -- often all at the same time. That said, I wouldn't assume NU itself exhibits any of these personalities on an overarching basis.


They compete by spending more time studying. OP means which schools study the most and are hardest to excel in


Please don't peddle your bullshit on other people's threads, you end up wrecking them.


I don't troll, you troll me. That's what happened here. Stop trolling my comments. you ruin the thread not me

daryldixon
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 3:55 am

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby daryldixon » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:08 pm

My guess is Yale.

Although I have heard that all the schools with a H/P grading system (H,Y,S,B) are much more laid back than schools with definitive letter grade curves and/or rankings. Not sure if that is true though.

User avatar
brotherdarkness
Posts: 3254
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby brotherdarkness » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:09 pm

.
Last edited by brotherdarkness on Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby kapital98 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:17 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
daryldixon wrote:My guess is Yale.

Although I have heard that all the schools with a H/P grading system (H,Y,S,B) are much more laid back than schools with definitive letter grade curves and/or rankings. Not sure if that is true though.


I can't speak to HYS, but there are plenty of gunners at Berkeley. No matter where you go, there will be plenty of competition.


I'm always amazed at how hard the Harvard people work. Whenever I see them on threads they are gunning like hell (in a respectful manner). It's a 50/50 combo of being genuinely interested in the material and being terrified of receiving whatever the low grade is for Harvard. I admire their work ethic.

User avatar
twenty
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby twenty » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:45 pm

sandwich wrote:
twenty wrote:
john1990 wrote:
twenty wrote:"Competitive" is a huge misnomer. Seriously, how is a law student going to compete with you? Hide stuff in the library that is easily available online? Refuse to give you notes for the class you missed when you can get an entire outline from the student group you're part of? "Study harder?"

I enjoy watching the NU TLSers. They exude a very entertaining combination of laid-back trollishness, hyper-sensitivity, and fatalistic sarcasm -- often all at the same time. That said, I wouldn't assume NU itself exhibits any of these personalities on an overarching basis.


They compete by spending more time studying. OP means which schools study the most and are hardest to excel in


Please don't peddle your bullshit on other people's threads, you end up wrecking them.



I'm honestly a little confused here. Twenty, you're seriously one of the best people on the planet in my opinion, but I also took the OP to mean exactly what john1990 thought.

When I think of a competitive school, I think of SOMETHING LIKE a school where it's difficult to excel because everyone studies much harder. Like, I figure that if a school is 'competitive', the students 'in general' are all trying to excel and so the average scores are higher and so good grades are harder to come by on a curve. I mean, I'm totally just a dorky 0L, so what do I know? But there's definitely (in my opinion) a way for a given class to be more or less competitive, and part of that is what was described in the rest of this thread: it can manifest as peer sabotage, it can manifest as people caring a whole lot about their grades and, say, getting totally bummed about an A- or something, it can manifest by people not sharing notes or working together, etc. But I also feel like the most likely/universal byproduct of this is how much people study... someone who is more competitive will likely spend more time studying, i think? And if there are more people who do this, that school in general will be harder to excel in, right? Or am I also just peddling bullshit... which is very possible! But I also wouldn't mind being set straight if I'm super wrong about everything :) thanks twenty! and everyone!


I typically try to make an effort to be considerate of other people's feelings; but john's poor attempt at trolling/actual mental illness (honestly leaning towards the latter, truth to tell) sometimes gets the better of me, especially when it causes pitfalls for potential law students. His actual interactions with other posters can be entertaining at times, but it's kind of a sick interaction; like watching a dog chase down and tear apart a crippled weasel. But I really can't abide the idea that 0Ls are reading his dribble and, without any other background or knowledge, might actually take him seriously and make some really poor choices.

The whole "school x is harder" thing is a bit of a flame. First, sabotage just doesn't happen because of the sheer pointlessness of it. Short of getting your mono-ridden sister to make out with your section, there's really nothing you can do to your section to guarantee yourself artificially better grades. I'm certain at every school, there are people (mind, very few) that will be depressed at getting A-s.

My friend at a T14 described 1L as "feeling like you're always exactly two inches below in water. You're kicking yourself because you can see the surface, but you're drowning regardless." Law school is one of those things where you either get it or you don't. Everyone's going to be studying, and you're not going to get any real advantage by studying for 14 hours a day instead of 10 hours a day. Think of it this way, everyone going to a T14 school is realistically doing so on the basis of their numbers. The difference between a Columbia student and a Cornell student is misunderstanding a logic game.

The one notable exception to "all schools are the same" might be P/F LRW, but that's not really an indication of reduced competitiveness.

User avatar
sandwich
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:11 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby sandwich » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:57 pm

twenty wrote:



Got it. I didn't know of the whole history between y'all :)

Thought I was grossly misinterpreting the OP, or his comment. Glad to know I can still read, kind of!

User avatar
brotherdarkness
Posts: 3254
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby brotherdarkness » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:20 pm

.
Last edited by brotherdarkness on Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby Nelson » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:39 pm

daryldixon wrote:My guess is Yale.

Although I have heard that all the schools with a H/P grading system (H,Y,S,B) are much more laid back than schools with definitive letter grade curves and/or rankings. Not sure if that is true though.

The kind of strivers with the backgrounds for HYS don't stop striving once they get to law school just because they don't get grades. If your definition of competitiveness involves other people working hard, all law schools are competitive. This seems like a dumb definition to me.

User avatar
twenty
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby twenty » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:41 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
twenty wrote:
The one notable exception to "all schools are the same" might be P/F LRW, but that's not really an indication of reduced competitiveness.


This should be far higher on any prospective student's list of considerations than any beliefs as to one T14 being more competitive than another.


Is graded LRW really that bad? :P

User avatar
brotherdarkness
Posts: 3254
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:11 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby brotherdarkness » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:46 pm

.
Last edited by brotherdarkness on Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jbagelboy
Posts: 9635
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:08 pm

brotherdarkness wrote:
twenty wrote:
brotherdarkness wrote:
twenty wrote:
The one notable exception to "all schools are the same" might be P/F LRW, but that's not really an indication of reduced competitiveness.


This should be far higher on any prospective student's list of considerations than any beliefs as to one T14 being more competitive than another.


Is graded LRW really that bad? :P


I wouldn't know from personal experience because I made sure I didn't attend a school with graded LRW. 8)

LRW is both a time sink and subjective. Unlike the doctrinal classes where your grade is dependent upon your knowledge of the law and ability to apply that knowledge, your LRW grade is based on whether or not you're able to conform to your professor's preferred style of writing. Given what's riding on our 1L GPA, I wasn't willing to subject myself to that.


Lol. All 1L grading is pretty subjective. Idk if memos are evaluated any more arbitrarily than written exams in reality.

User avatar
kapital98
Posts: 1188
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Re: What are the most/least competitive T14 and why?

Postby kapital98 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:03 pm

twenty wrote:
brotherdarkness wrote:
twenty wrote:
The one notable exception to "all schools are the same" might be P/F LRW, but that's not really an indication of reduced competitiveness.


This should be far higher on any prospective student's list of considerations than any beliefs as to one T14 being more competitive than another.


Is graded LRW really that bad? :P


Yes. I had graded 1L LRW. It's a huge sink of time. All the time that could be spent studying for doctrinal classes somehow ends up being consumed by LRW.

What's worse, the grading styles of each professors varies greatly. The lowest grade in my LRW was a "B" and almost everyone got some type of an "A". I had a roommate who's LRW only had a single "A" and multiple "C's". Given that we are all competing against each other for a limited number of jobs, that's a huge deal.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 01panm, brendo17, BVest, Lahtso Nuggin and 8 guests