Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

CLS/NYU @120K or UVA/Duke @90K

CLS/NYU @120K
39
81%
UVA/Duke @90K
9
19%
 
Total votes: 48

User avatar
Seaborn'16
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:46 pm

Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby Seaborn'16 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:15 pm

Hi all,

Do the NYC schools give enough of an advantage to justify a (potential) extra 30K in loans?

I've already been accepted to at least one school in each category, and I'm in the fortunate position of being eligible for the Post 9/11 GI Bill. That means that my tuition will essentially be covered no matter which school I attend, along with receiving a generous monthly stipend for housing (during the academic year, so 9 months). However, I will still need to take out loans for other living expenses for myself, my wife, and my infant son (due in May!). Wife may or may not work, but with the cost of childcare these days that would likely be a wash anyways, so it probably wouldn't affect the loan amounts.

Goals: COA Clerkship (NY/DC/CA preferred, but not necessarily a deal-breaker) >> NY/DC Biglaw (Ideally V20 or better)

Costs: A conservative, high-end estimate puts CLS/NYU at about $120,000, while the same estimate puts UVA/Duke at about $90,000. So we're still talking about relatively low loan numbers (for a law student) and these are the upper estimates, but it's still real money.

There are a lot of different metrics out there that could make a good case either way, but I'm curious about the TLS consensus opinion on this. Thanks to anyone who contributes!

User avatar
2014
Posts: 5831
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:53 pm

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby 2014 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:36 pm

100000% yes they are worth 30k more. Given your goals it is even more clear. The clerkship thing is the only ambiguity since UVA and Duke do pretty well with A3 clerks, and while it's just conjecture, I imagine if you remove the southern clerks and focus on the markets you want, it's pretty even. The big difference though is placement in high vault firms. While Duke and UVA do a solid job of placing grads in big law generally, CCN has a decided advantage at the higher vault firms, particularly in New York. Whether V20 is a meaningful cutoff that you should care about or not is another issue, but given your professed goals, CCN is going to get you there more often than UVA/Duke will and it's enough to easily be worth 30k + interest over a career.

Also did you apply to Chicago? We do comparatively well in DC/California compared to Columbia/NYU, have higher clerkship numbers than any of the schools you mentioned, and still do great for elite NYC firms. I have to assume the cost would be less than Columbia/NYU too given COA here. You just have to be willing to be in Chicago for 3 years.

User avatar
Seaborn'16
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:46 pm

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby Seaborn'16 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:45 pm

2014 wrote:100000% yes they are worth 30k more. Given your goals it is even more clear. The clerkship thing is the only ambiguity since UVA and Duke do pretty well with A3 clerks, and while it's just conjecture, I imagine if you remove the southern clerks and focus on the markets you want, it's pretty even. The big difference though is placement in high vault firms. While Duke and UVA do a solid job of placing grads in big law generally, CCN has a decided advantage at the higher vault firms, particularly in New York. Whether V20 is a meaningful cutoff that you should care about or not is another issue, but given your professed goals, CCN is going to get you there more often than UVA/Duke will and it's enough to easily be worth 30k + interest over a career.

Also did you apply to Chicago? We do comparatively well in DC/California compared to Columbia/NYU, have higher clerkship numbers than any of the schools you mentioned, and still do great for elite NYC firms. I have to assume the cost would be less than Columbia/NYU too given COA here. You just have to be willing to be in Chicago for 3 years.



Thanks for your response. I have applied to Chicago as well, but as a splitter I'm less confident of admission there. That would change the math a bit (as would HYS), but for now I'm just trying to get a feel for the decision that I'm more likely to have to make.

Thanks again.

User avatar
UVAIce
Posts: 442
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:10 pm

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby UVAIce » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:55 pm

PM me if you would like. I am former military at UVA on the post 9/11 GI Bill with a wife and child. I can tell you right now that you will not need to borrow 30K a year to live in Charlottesville, especially when you count in your stipend.

I am also not certain that you want to be working in NYC given your familial situation. I purposefully turned down NYC and DC because of my family situation.

Just PM me.

daleearnhardt123
Posts: 287
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:41 pm

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby daleearnhardt123 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:14 pm

Hard to see why Duke is a consideration here, or NYU really. If you're calculating COL correctly, Columbia probably should be the pick. If you want a COA clerkship in NY DC or CA, you have to do preposterously good at UVA to get one. Whereas, you can do one step beneath preposterously good (grades wise) and be competitive for a 2d circuit COA clerkship out of columbia.

Otherwise, you probably have to strain your eyes a decent amount to see much of a difference. But if you are going to be one of the top performers in your class (impossible to project anyways) then Columbia is the better place to be.

User avatar
twenty
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby twenty » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:23 pm

Goals: COA Clerkship (NY/DC/CA preferred, but not necessarily a deal-breaker) >> NY/DC Biglaw (Ideally V20 or better)


Excluding the weird irony that UVA and Duke place slightly better in clerkships (though not necessarily COA), Columbia and NYU definitely outperform UVA and Duke on the biglaw front. Maybe not 75k+'s worth, but definitely 30k's worth.

edit> That all said, you're in a weird situation that apparently requires a lot more loans than a normal 9/11 financed-individual. That being the case, Duke or UVA may be TCR because I feel like the 90k estimate might be too high.

User avatar
jbagelboy
Posts: 9635
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:52 pm

daleearnhardt123 wrote:Hard to see why Duke is a consideration here, or NYU really. If you're calculating COL correctly, Columbia probably should be the pick. If you want a COA clerkship in NY DC or CA, you have to do preposterously good at UVA to get one. Whereas, you can do one step beneath preposterously good (grades wise) and be competitive for a 2d circuit COA clerkship out of columbia.

Otherwise, you probably have to strain your eyes a decent amount to see much of a difference. But if you are going to be one of the top performers in your class (impossible to project anyways) then Columbia is the better place to be.


I think we can safely assume OP is in at NYU, not CLS, since Columbia hasnt released any RD decisions yet, and if OP was an ED applicant, well, this would be dumb.

User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby Nelson » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:25 pm

LOL at the CCN grads trying to justify the premium they paid. OP's goals are also 0L silliness: COA clerkship means (presumably) litigation, but OP then wants a "V20 firm." Also this is a hypothetical.

User avatar
twenty
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby twenty » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:54 pm

Nelson wrote:Also this is a hypothetical.


How is it hypothetical?

User avatar
Seaborn'16
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:46 pm

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby Seaborn'16 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:15 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:
Goals: COA Clerkship (NY/DC/CA preferred, but not necessarily a deal-breaker) >> NY/DC Biglaw (Ideally V20 or better)


Excluding the weird irony that UVA and Duke place slightly better in clerkships (though not necessarily COA), Columbia and NYU definitely outperform UVA and Duke on the biglaw front. Maybe not 75k+'s worth, but definitely 30k's worth.

edit> That all said, you're in a weird situation that apparently requires a lot more loans than a normal 9/11 financed-individual. That being the case, Duke or UVA may be TCR because I feel like the 90k estimate might be too high.



Yeah, the 90k probably is too high, but the 120k estimate may be too high as well. I'm just looking at worst case scenarios because I really have no idea how to gauge what unknown costs are going to spring up with the newborn child. And a decent chunk of both the NYC and Non-NYC estimates are health insurance for myself and dependents, the numbers for which I just pulled from the school plans. I'm fairly confident I find a better plan in either location, but I'm just trying to keep as many constants as possible, so that while the numbers themselves may be too high, their relation to each other is as close to accurate as I can reasonably estimate.

User avatar
Tiago Splitter
Posts: 15464
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:08 pm

Nelson wrote:LOL at the CCN grads trying to justify the premium they paid. OP's goals are also 0L silliness: COA clerkship means (presumably) litigation, but OP then wants a "V20 firm." Also this is a hypothetical.

I agree about the clerkship goals, but that makes CLS/NYU worth more, not less, because OP presumably doesn't know exactly what he wants to do. If it's only 30k it seems like a pretty easy choice.

User avatar
ExBiglawAssociate
Posts: 2080
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:06 pm

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:58 am

*sigh*

For the umpteenth time, there are litigation practices outside the V20 that are more prestigious and have better exit options (and partnership prospects) than litigation practices in the V20. Vault rankings are close to meaningless for litigation firms.

NYstate
Posts: 1566
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby NYstate » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:41 am

UVAIce wrote:PM me if you would like. I am former military at UVA on the post 9/11 GI Bill with a wife and child. I can tell you right now that you will not need to borrow 30K a year to live in Charlottesville, especially when you count in your stipend.

I am also not certain that you want to be working in NYC given your familial situation. I purposefully turned down NYC and DC because of my family situation.

Just PM me.


As a born and bred New Yorker, I think NYC is the best place to raise kids. It is also the largest legal market and OP would be foolish to reject it out of hand. People who didn't grow up in the city may not appreciate how great the city is for families. If OP ends up with low debt and big law litigation, he will be doing very well.

You can post questions about family life in NYC if it comes down to it. There are TLS posters with infants,living in the city and doing fine.

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby 20141023 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:51 am

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Columbia/NYU @120K vs UVA/Duke @90K

Postby Nelson » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:28 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Nelson wrote:LOL at the CCN grads trying to justify the premium they paid. OP's goals are also 0L silliness: COA clerkship means (presumably) litigation, but OP then wants a "V20 firm." Also this is a hypothetical.

I agree about the clerkship goals, but that makes CLS/NYU worth more, not less, because OP presumably doesn't know exactly what he wants to do. If it's only 30k it seems like a pretty easy choice.

I disagree with this, but it could be argued either way. I would say that if OP is at the top third or bottom third of the class it's won't matter, so it's essentially a difference at median. At median, it will only matter for NYC firms, so if OP ends up targeting a secondary market, it won't make much difference anyway. So if OP is top third, bottom third, or targeting a secondary market, he'd rather have 30k than a marginal advantage at best. On the other hand, if you do turn out to be the median edge case and you strike out, you might wish you paid the extra money.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest