UC Hastings vs UC Davis

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BigZuck
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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby BigZuck » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:53 pm

apollo2015 wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
apollo2015 wrote:Also, a big factor in favor of Hastings is the opportunity to live in the Tower. It is half a block from the campus, and about 1/3rd of the Hastings students live in it. The tower is fantastic for networking, socializing, and giving you more hours in each day due to the lack of a commute.


I tried really hard to think of a worse reason for attending a school, but sadly I could not. Forgive me.


Being social is important, as is saving time.

Moonlight wrote:And yea I haven't been admitted to either yet. I've been admitted to other Bay Area schools with Dean's Fellowships though. Hastings releases admissions in January usually right? I assume same is true of Davis?



Congratulations! If USF is one of them, I recommend checking with them regarding their student housing options for law/grad students. I think they have only a limited amount of housing available, so I'd look into that ASAP.

And yes, Hastings starts releasing regular decision acceptances in January. Acceptances come out later too depending on when one applied.


Ugh. Apollo is a troll. Please ignore anything he says. Attending USF would almost certainly be one of, if not the, biggest mistakes of your life.

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:06 pm

apollo2015 wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
apollo2015 wrote:Also, a big factor in favor of Hastings is the opportunity to live in the Tower. It is half a block from the campus, and about 1/3rd of the Hastings students live in it. The tower is fantastic for networking, socializing, and giving you more hours in each day due to the lack of a commute.


I tried really hard to think of a worse reason for attending a school, but sadly I could not. Forgive me.


Being social is important, as is saving time.

Moonlight wrote:And yea I haven't been admitted to either yet. I've been admitted to other Bay Area schools with Dean's Fellowships though. Hastings releases admissions in January usually right? I assume same is true of Davis?


Congratulations! If USF is one of them, I recommend checking with them regarding their student housing options for law/grad students. I think they have only a limited amount of housing available, so I'd look into that ASAP.

And yes, Hastings starts releasing regular decision acceptances in January. Acceptances come out later too depending on when one applied.


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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby 20160810 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:08 pm

BigZuck wrote:
SBL wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
SBL wrote:SF rent is a three-year ass-reaming. I paid about $500/mo for my own room in a decent place in Davis. The difference in rent alone could plausibly add up to ~$30,000 over three years, which is non-trivial.

There's an idea that Davis gets you stuck in Sacramento, which is pretty dumb. The same firms generally interview at both schools, and Sac firms are reluctant to hire people without ties to the area from either Davis or Hastings.

Also, firms use *the exact same GPA cutoff for both schools* which means that if you want a firm job and you're dead-set against retaking, it literally doesn't matter which one you pick.

FWIW, I went to Davis, had a blast, and now I have a pretty decent job despite good but not stellar grades. I'm sure a comparable experience from Hastings is equally possible, but I will say that professors from Davis went out of their way to help me get a SA gig and my first job out of law school, so I owe them a debt of gratitude. The faculty is really a high point at UCD, but again, I've never taken so much as a single class at Hastings, so it's not as if I really have a frame of reference here.

TLDR: I liked Davis, but you may as well just flip a coin.


How much did you pay in tuition at Davis? What was your debt at graduation? How many of your classmates have jobs that can service their debt?

(1.) Nothing, (2.) Not a lot, (3.) I don't know, but not enough.

I'm not saying it's a lovely idea to borrow $200,000 to go to UCD. I'm just saying that if you're dead set on picking one of these two schools, it's a coin toss.


I guess that's where we differ. I think that's a dumb false dichotomy and I can't in good conscience suggest that either are anything but a bad decision. Cuz math and probabilities and stuff.

Different strokes for different folks.

Fine, I guess, but that's pretty common knowledge on TLS. Jumping into every thread about non-elite law schools to say people are idiots for even thinking about either of them isn't especially productive.

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby Moonlight » Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:33 am

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BigZuck
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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby BigZuck » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:13 am

Moonlight wrote:
SBL wrote:Fine, I guess, but that's pretty common knowledge on TLS. Jumping into every thread about non-elite law schools to say people are idiots for even thinking about either of them isn't especially productive.


I agree. That is indeed very true. We already get the message on T-14 or bust. But its more productive if we still discuss these "non-elite" schools as there are people still going to them.


Nice strawmen bros.

Anyway SBL you're going to have to teach me how to be productive in my prolificacy. I have always seen you as something of an expert on that topic.

Moonlight- it's not T14 or bust. Get a grip.

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby Moonlight » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:22 am

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Nova
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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby Nova » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:23 am

Moonlight wrote:Am I wrong to say that this forum loves to promote the T14 or bust idea?

Yes

If you disagree, what do you think this forum promotes?

Not fucking yourself over

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby Moonlight » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:26 am

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dosto
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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby dosto » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:44 am

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rickgrimes69
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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:06 am

Moonlight wrote:
Lol well outside this site, a lot of law school students I know tend to say this is a T-14 or bust type of site and I tend to agree.


Then you and them are both idiots. The TLS philosophy could be more accurately summarized as "T13 for Biglaw, or Strong Regional with a hefty scholarship for everything else." That's not based on elitism, that's based on the statistical likelihood of getting a job that will sufficiently service one's debt.

P.S. neither UCH nor UCD are considered a "strong regional" (although UCD is closer than UCH).

P.P.S. Zuck, as well as many prolific posters on TLS, don't attend a T14.

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby 20160810 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:15 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
Moonlight wrote:
Lol well outside this site, a lot of law school students I know tend to say this is a T-14 or bust type of site and I tend to agree.


Then you and them are both idiots. The TLS philosophy could be more accurately summarized as "T13 for Biglaw, or Strong Regional with a hefty scholarship for everything else." That's not based on elitism, that's based on the statistical likelihood of getting a job that will sufficiently service one's debt.

P.S. neither UCH nor UCD are considered a "strong regional" (although UCD is closer than UCH).

P.P.S. Zuck, as well as many prolific posters on TLS, don't attend a T14.

At the end of the day, it's probably a decent policy to assume that people trying to decide between Davis and Hastings are aware that they're not looking at the best options in the world, but that doesn't mean there's not some productive discussion to be had on the topic. Since I've been around here there have been some pretty productive changes to TLS (people never used to talk about the importance of market ties, and now it's common knowledge that ties to the area are mission-critical for people not looking to work in the top 3-4 markets) but one of the more (to my reckoning) obnoxious trends is the tendency of people to jump into "School A v. School B" threads with "RETAKE AND SCHOOL C, RETARD." The advice might not be wrong, but it's not helpful either.

Also FWIW, for people with ties to Sac/Central Valley, Davis certainly qualifies as "strong regional"

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby californiauser » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:18 pm

SBL wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
Moonlight wrote:
Lol well outside this site, a lot of law school students I know tend to say this is a T-14 or bust type of site and I tend to agree.


Then you and them are both idiots. The TLS philosophy could be more accurately summarized as "T13 for Biglaw, or Strong Regional with a hefty scholarship for everything else." That's not based on elitism, that's based on the statistical likelihood of getting a job that will sufficiently service one's debt.

P.S. neither UCH nor UCD are considered a "strong regional" (although UCD is closer than UCH).

P.P.S. Zuck, as well as many prolific posters on TLS, don't attend a T14.

At the end of the day, it's probably a decent policy to assume that people trying to decide between Davis and Hastings are aware that they're not looking at the best options in the world, but that doesn't mean there's not some productive discussion to be had on the topic. Since I've been around here there have been some pretty productive changes to TLS (people never used to talk about the importance of market ties, and now it's common knowledge that ties to the area are mission-critical for people not looking to work in the top 3-4 markets) but one of the more (to my reckoning) obnoxious trends is the tendency of people to jump into "School A v. School B" threads with "RETAKE AND SCHOOL C, RETARD." The advice might not be wrong, but it's not helpful either.

Also FWIW, for people with ties to Sac/Central Valley, Davis certainly qualifies as "strong regional"


Neither school gives much scholarship money and neither school is the best in its region. There really isn't a good reason for anyone to attend either school unless they have extenuating circumstances like kids, a mortgage, spouse employed in the area, etc. (these should be highlighted in the OP).

Hastings is literally one of the worst schools in the country when you consider its high COL, tuition, and employment prospects.

Posting these options on this site is kind of like going on a suicide prevention forum and asking should I kill myself with a gun or knife?

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john1990
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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby john1990 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:27 pm

Moonlight wrote:Hey guys,

For the sake of discussion, anyone want to weigh in on UC Hastings vs UC Davis?

NOTE: Please spare us all the "It's not worth it to go to either of those schools speech". We all know that speech well, but I'm interested in what people think besides that blanket statement.

Let the comments begin!



UC Hastings is not very nice

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:06 pm

SBL wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
Moonlight wrote:
Lol well outside this site, a lot of law school students I know tend to say this is a T-14 or bust type of site and I tend to agree.


Then you and them are both idiots. The TLS philosophy could be more accurately summarized as "T13 for Biglaw, or Strong Regional with a hefty scholarship for everything else." That's not based on elitism, that's based on the statistical likelihood of getting a job that will sufficiently service one's debt.

P.S. neither UCH nor UCD are considered a "strong regional" (although UCD is closer than UCH).

P.P.S. Zuck, as well as many prolific posters on TLS, don't attend a T14.

At the end of the day, it's probably a decent policy to assume that people trying to decide between Davis and Hastings are aware that they're not looking at the best options in the world, but that doesn't mean there's not some productive discussion to be had on the topic. Since I've been around here there have been some pretty productive changes to TLS (people never used to talk about the importance of market ties, and now it's common knowledge that ties to the area are mission-critical for people not looking to work in the top 3-4 markets) but one of the more (to my reckoning) obnoxious trends is the tendency of people to jump into "School A v. School B" threads with "RETAKE AND SCHOOL C, RETARD." The advice might not be wrong, but it's not helpful either.


I disagree. I think it's not only helpful, but necessary. Presenting School A v. School B is a false dichotomy which implies that one school or the other must be chosen. We all know that's not the case - nobody points a gun at your head and forces you to go to law school.

Look at it this way: let's assume the OP is choosing between UCD and UCH, both at sticker. Both are objectively terrible options. Discussing the relative merits of one over the other is a pointless exercise when TCR is indisputably "neither." Just because someone doesn't present that third option doesn't obligate us to ignore its existence.

Also FWIW, for people with ties to Sac/Central Valley, Davis certainly qualifies as "strong regional"


Debatable, but I'll leave that argument to people with more knowledge of the NorCal market.

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby 20160810 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:18 pm

The other thing to keep in mind is that NLJ-250 hiring data doesn't paint the best picture for Davis (and probably Hastings either), because even the best firms in places like Sacramento and Fresno aren't big enough to be ranked. My mid sized firm pays market rate for my city, has plenty of complex work, is well regarded locally, etc., but is nowhere near big enough for NLJ250 ranking. It's just kinda the nature of the market. For people who grew up in this area, being anywhere in the top half of the class at Davis (and certainly in the top third) is probably enough to get an interview with some pretty good smaller firms.

Now I get that most people aren't interested in working in Sacramento, but people who do want to stay in the area I have a hard time calling UCD a terrible choice, especially if they're willing to cut their losses if they get terrible grades 1L year.

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby Moonlight » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:52 pm

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby Nova » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:55 pm

Moonlight wrote:The rankings each year has fluctuated a lot though. Name recognition wise, I feel like Hastings gets more than Davis despite being ranked lower.

USNWRankings are irrelevant

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby BigZuck » Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:00 pm

Nova wrote:
Moonlight wrote:The rankings each year has fluctuated a lot though. Name recognition wise, I feel like Hastings gets more than Davis despite being ranked lower.

USNWRankings are irrelevant


Yup.

Moonlight- you clearly don't get it. Keep an open mind, and actively and critically think about what you read. Right now you're not comprehending what you read on this site and you're just projecting on everyone else's posts and that could be a very dangerous thing.

Also, don't go to either unless they are dirt cheap.

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby Dingo Starr » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:18 am

Also FWIW, for people with ties to Sac/Central Valley, Davis certainly qualifies as "strong regional"

rickgrimes69 wrote:Debatable, but I'll leave that argument to people with more knowledge of the NorCal market.


Invalidates previous argument.

rickgrimes69 wrote:P.S. neither UCH nor UCD are considered a "strong regional" (although UCD is closer than UCH).

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20160810
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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby 20160810 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:37 am

Moonlight wrote:
SBL wrote:The other thing to keep in mind is that NLJ-250 hiring data doesn't paint the best picture for Davis (and probably Hastings either), because even the best firms in places like Sacramento and Fresno aren't big enough to be ranked. My mid sized firm pays market rate for my city, has plenty of complex work, is well regarded locally, etc., but is nowhere near big enough for NLJ250 ranking. It's just kinda the nature of the market. For people who grew up in this area, being anywhere in the top half of the class at Davis (and certainly in the top third) is probably enough to get an interview with some pretty good smaller firms.

Now I get that most people aren't interested in working in Sacramento, but people who do want to stay in the area I have a hard time calling UCD a terrible choice, especially if they're willing to cut their losses if they get terrible grades 1L year.



Interesting. Btw appreciate the feedbacks that aren't focused on the T-14 arguments or T-Whatever makes you happy argument.

I'll update you guys when and if I get into both schools and what I get financially. That could be potentially an more fruitful conversation. The rankings each year has fluctuated a lot though. Name recognition wise, I feel like Hastings gets more than Davis despite being ranked lower.

If name recognition is a priority, then honestly you're looking at the wrong schools. Nobody I meet professionally is ever going to have their socks knocked off by the fact that I went to Davis, and the exact same thing is true for people who went to Hastings. If you take away anything from my posts whatsoever, it should be this: There is zero prestige difference between Davis and Hastings. Rankings are completely immaterial. Law firms all use the exact same cutoffs for both schools.

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby deebanger » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:59 am

SBL, a bit off topic, but you seem knowledgeable, so I thought you could answer this, I am genuinely interested in Davis, but I actually have ties to Orange county, as I went to undergrad here, and Im really surprised that OC firms even come to Davis' OCI. I had the impression that it would mainly be SF or Sac firms. So, did u know people from your year/class get gigs at firms in Orange County or San Diego? because settling down in OC or SD is my ideal scenario as I like it here, and my only family member in the country, my brother is also here. So I get that Davis is sorta like the middle of the pack law school in the state, like there is obviously Berkely, Stanford, UCLA and USC ranked higher, but in the scenario I dont accepted to those, and since I want to eventually settle down in OC or SD, would u say UCI and UCD are safe options if I get decent money from them?

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby 20160810 » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:05 am

deebanger wrote:SBL, a bit off topic, but you seem knowledgeable, so I thought you could answer this, I am genuinely interested in Davis, but I actually have ties to Orange county, as I went to undergrad here, and Im really surprised that OC firms even come to Davis' OCI. I had the impression that it would mainly be SF or Sac firms. So, did u know people from your year/class get gigs at firms in Orange County or San Diego? because settling down in OC or SD is my ideal scenario as I like it here, and my only family member in the country, my brother is also here. So I get that Davis is sorta like the middle of the pack law school in the state, like there is obviously Berkely, Stanford, UCLA and USC ranked higher, but in the scenario I dont accepted to those, and since I want to eventually settle down in OC or SD, would u say UCI and UCD are safe options if I get decent money from them?

I think there were like 4 firms from OC when I did OCI, so I don't want to give you the impression that the proverbial cup runneth over with options in Newport, but there is a bit. I had a couple screeners that never went anywhere, and my roommate (who also grew up in Norcal) had a callback that didn't turn into an offer IIRC. Ties were a big issue in all of the interviews, but if you grew up there you should be cool. I know a couple other people who are doing public sector gigs down in OC right now, so if you're not just stuck on firms you definitely have more options. Just kinda depends what your goals are.

It probably makes more sense to go to UCLA or SC unless you get a pretty decent scholarship, but if Davis gives you enough money to make it worthwhile, don't think that you'll be hosed when it comes to finding work in Orange County as long as you do reasonably well.

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby deebanger » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:11 am

SBL wrote:
deebanger wrote:SBL, a bit off topic, but you seem knowledgeable, so I thought you could answer this, I am genuinely interested in Davis, but I actually have ties to Orange county, as I went to undergrad here, and Im really surprised that OC firms even come to Davis' OCI. I had the impression that it would mainly be SF or Sac firms. So, did u know people from your year/class get gigs at firms in Orange County or San Diego? because settling down in OC or SD is my ideal scenario as I like it here, and my only family member in the country, my brother is also here. So I get that Davis is sorta like the middle of the pack law school in the state, like there is obviously Berkely, Stanford, UCLA and USC ranked higher, but in the scenario I dont accepted to those, and since I want to eventually settle down in OC or SD, would u say UCI and UCD are safe options if I get decent money from them?

I think there were like 4 firms from OC when I did OCI, so I don't want to give you the impression that the proverbial cup runneth over with options in Newport, but there is a bit. I had a couple screeners that never went anywhere, and my roommate (who also grew up in Norcal) had a callback that didn't turn into an offer IIRC. Ties were a big issue in all of the interviews, but if you grew up there you should be cool. I know a couple other people who are doing public sector gigs down in OC right now, so if you're not just stuck on firms you definitely have more options. Just kinda depends what your goals are.

It probably makes more sense to go to UCLA or SC unless you get a pretty decent scholarship, but if Davis gives you enough money to make it worthwhile, don't think that you'll be hosed when it comes to finding work in Orange County as long as you do reasonably well.


Thanks a lot man! you were really helpful! I appreciate it

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby californiauser » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:18 am

deebanger wrote:
SBL wrote:
deebanger wrote:SBL, a bit off topic, but you seem knowledgeable, so I thought you could answer this, I am genuinely interested in Davis, but I actually have ties to Orange county, as I went to undergrad here, and Im really surprised that OC firms even come to Davis' OCI. I had the impression that it would mainly be SF or Sac firms. So, did u know people from your year/class get gigs at firms in Orange County or San Diego? because settling down in OC or SD is my ideal scenario as I like it here, and my only family member in the country, my brother is also here. So I get that Davis is sorta like the middle of the pack law school in the state, like there is obviously Berkely, Stanford, UCLA and USC ranked higher, but in the scenario I dont accepted to those, and since I want to eventually settle down in OC or SD, would u say UCI and UCD are safe options if I get decent money from them?

I think there were like 4 firms from OC when I did OCI, so I don't want to give you the impression that the proverbial cup runneth over with options in Newport, but there is a bit. I had a couple screeners that never went anywhere, and my roommate (who also grew up in Norcal) had a callback that didn't turn into an offer IIRC. Ties were a big issue in all of the interviews, but if you grew up there you should be cool. I know a couple other people who are doing public sector gigs down in OC right now, so if you're not just stuck on firms you definitely have more options. Just kinda depends what your goals are.

It probably makes more sense to go to UCLA or SC unless you get a pretty decent scholarship, but if Davis gives you enough money to make it worthwhile, don't think that you'll be hosed when it comes to finding work in Orange County as long as you do reasonably well.


Thanks a lot man! you were really helpful! I appreciate it


Seriously? This is common TLS wisdom. T14 or strong regional with a large scholarship. This isn't unique advice.

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Re: UC Hastings vs UC Davis

Postby Nova » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:20 am

californiauser wrote:Seriously? This is common TLS wisdom. T14 or strong regional with a large scholarship. This isn't unique advice.

chill out lol




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