is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

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deebanger
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is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby deebanger » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:08 pm

this thread was amazing, whats even more shocking is that there are 2ls and 3l's agree with a lot of things said in this thread. I know it can be hyperbole, but is it really that depressing? i know that weather can play a part in that, the weather is brutal, sucks, and I mean minessota is not California, where the the weather and the beaches are just mind blowing, but is it just the weather, or are there defintely numerous other problems with the law school (like being locked in minessotta, inability to get jobs out of state, lack of big law jobs)

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=165679

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Nova
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby Nova » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:23 pm

*Minnesota

deebanger
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby deebanger » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:26 pm

my bad, its my fault, so nova, I know that you post here a lot and provide some good advice, so whats your overall take on that thread, I'm sure you would have read it before, is just the weather that makes it depressing, or are there legit problems with the school?

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AT9
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby AT9 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:32 pm

Went to undergrad at the U so I can't comment much on the law school specifically, but the Twin Cities are great and so is the university itself. I really enjoyed my time there. I'm guessing people who are depressed because of their surroundings are people who just wanted a top 20 school without considering the limited geographic mobility. If you like living in great cities and can deal with brutally cold winters, you'll probably love it. If you don't want to live in the Midwest and/or can't take frigid weather, don't go.

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midnight_circus
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby midnight_circus » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:42 pm

I'm in MN now and it was -9 this morning. Which is rough. But it will most likely only get colder going into Jan & Feb.
That said, the Twin Cities are amazing. Great theater scene, delicious food, friendly people, and fantastic beer for pretty cheap. Lots of bookstores, an art museum that did an exhibition on cat memes, pond hockey...The entire area is delightful. As long as you can deal with ~5pm sunsets for a few months of the year.
I don't know much about the law school, but I honestly enjoy MN winters and miss the snow when I'm elsewhere. It's a matter of personal preference, but I would guess no: it isn't "that" depressing.

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worldtraveler
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:54 pm

I went to the U for undergrad and had a lot of friends continue on in the law school. All of them had trouble finding employment, even with good or decent grades. Minneapolis just does not have that big of a legal market and there are also MN/WI natives who attend t10 schools and secure positions there, making it even more competitive.

None of them ever had terrible things to say about the school, but it really seems that job prospects do not match the rank that well, and that their career services/admin is not that helpful (but that's true of many places).

The twin cities are an awesome place to live though, despite the cold in winter and heat in summer.

deebanger
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby deebanger » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:44 am

Does any UMN grads or students know the reason why UMN does a poor job of sending grads out of state for big law jobs compared to its peer schools?

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jbagelboy
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:08 am

deebanger wrote:Does any UMN grads or students know the reason why UMN does a poor job of sending grads out of state for big law jobs compared to its peer schools?


because there's no such thing as "peer" outside of about 13 schools. It's a misnomer invented by magazine rankings. There are strong regional schools which dominate their own market, as UMN does, and then there are TTTs below the strong regionals where you should only stay to transfer or if you are top 25% (or even top 10%).

edit: I would extend the concept of "peer" to where there are multiple strong regional schools in the same market who compete evenly, like UCLA and USC, or Emory and UGA (even this is questionable)

deebanger
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby deebanger » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:26 pm

ok forget about peer schools, but what I find very worrisome is the inability of UMN to send grads out of state for big law gigs in NYC, DC, and Cali. And of the posters who replied here admitted that "that job prospects do not match the rank that well". Does anybody have an idea about why UMN in particular seems to have limited geographic mobility compared to other schools which are ranked very close to UMN.

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Nova
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby Nova » Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:38 pm

deebanger wrote:ok forget about peer schools, but what I find very worrisome is the inability of UMN to send grads out of state for big law gigs in NYC, DC, and Cali.

deebanger wrote:Does anybody have an idea about why UMN in particular seems to have limited geographic mobility compared to other schools which are ranked very close to UMN.


No school outside the T14 places well in NYC/DC/Cali unless they are in or very near those markets. Its not a UMN thing. Its a regional school thing. If you want to work in NYC/DC/Cali, attending a flagship state school like Texas, Minnesota, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, or Utah is not a good strategy.

If not getting big law worries you, go to a T14.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:31 pm

Nova wrote:
deebanger wrote:ok forget about peer schools, but what I find very worrisome is the inability of UMN to send grads out of state for big law gigs in NYC, DC, and Cali.

deebanger wrote:Does anybody have an idea about why UMN in particular seems to have limited geographic mobility compared to other schools which are ranked very close to UMN.


No school outside the T14 places well in NYC/DC/Cali unless they are in or very near those markets. Its not a UMN thing. Its a regional school thing. If you want to work in NYC/DC/Cali, attending a flagship state school like Texas, Minnesota, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, or Utah is not a good strategy.

If not getting big law worries you, go to a T14.


This.

There is nothing wrong with UMN. It's a fine school. The problem is other people's incorrect assumptions about what "top 20 in USNEWS" means.

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kd5
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby kd5 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:56 pm

Totally agree with Nova above.

I'm a 3L at UMN and have had a good experience. I'll be working at one of the big local firms after graduation, and I know quite a few classmates who summered at big name NY firms, Chicago firms, and other big local firms. BigLaw (the local version and the NY/Boston/etc. version) is possible with good grades, good people skills, and some luck thrown in.

However, I'd be lying if I said the market wasn't crap overall.

As far as living here goes, I love it. Minneapolis is a great place to live. The school was poorly designed, and so I'd agree the building is depressing, but the Twin Cities rock. Great theater, concerts, art scene, coffee places, bars, food, everything.

If you want to know more specifics about what's bad (career services) and good (judicial and corporate externships) at UMN, ask away. But the "Minnesota is depressing" meme is really subjective and largely seems to affect people from (a) bigger cities and (b) sunny, warm states. Those of us from Midwest/northern states do just fine.

sighsigh
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby sighsigh » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:54 pm

I can definitely see why this school is a raw deal in terms of employment prospects. It's a T20 school that seems to really under-preform relative to other schools with similar numbers in the T20. A classic trap school.

U Minnessota, 167/3.8, 18% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=minnesota

U Texas Austin, 167/3.67, 35% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=texas

U Southern California, 167/3.73, 38% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=usc

U Berkeley, 167 3.81, 60.5% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=berkeley

etc.

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Nova
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby Nova » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:59 pm

the median is now 164 btw

just ignore usnwr
Last edited by Nova on Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

deebanger
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby deebanger » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:08 pm

sighsigh wrote:I can definitely see why this school is a raw deal in terms of employment prospects. It's a T20 school that seems to really under-preform relative to other schools with similar numbers in the T20. A classic trap school.

U Minnessota, 167/3.8, 18% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=minnesota

U Texas Austin, 167/3.67, 35% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=texas

U Southern California, 167/3.73, 38% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=usc

U Berkeley, 167 3.81, 60.5% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=berkeley

etc.


do you think one reason is that UT, USC, and Berkley send a good amount of students out of state, and UMN not so much?

drevo
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby drevo » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:25 pm

sighsigh wrote:I can definitely see why this school is a raw deal in terms of employment prospects. It's a T20 school that seems to really under-preform relative to other schools with similar numbers in the T20. A classic trap school.

U Minnessota, 167/3.8, 18% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=minnesota

U Texas Austin, 167/3.67, 35% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=texas

U Southern California, 167/3.73, 38% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=usc

U Berkeley, 167 3.81, 60.5% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=berkeley

etc.


Why is Berkeley in this list? It is in no way a "peer" school to any of those.

thelawyerguy
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby thelawyerguy » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:27 pm

deebanger wrote:
sighsigh wrote:I can definitely see why this school is a raw deal in terms of employment prospects. It's a T20 school that seems to really under-preform relative to other schools with similar numbers in the T20. A classic trap school.

U Minnessota, 167/3.8, 18% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=minnesota

U Texas Austin, 167/3.67, 35% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=texas

U Southern California, 167/3.73, 38% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=usc

U Berkeley, 167 3.81, 60.5% in biglaw/fed clerk
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=berkeley

etc.


do you think one reason is that UT, USC, and Berkley send a good amount of students out of state, and UMN not so much?


It's not because UT/USC are sending kids out of state, it's because they're in legal markets/states with more biglaw/fed clerk jobs (CA/TX). I'm not sure why Berkeley is being included as a comparison - that's a T14 and isn't a peer school to MN.

Texas only send 3.8% to CA
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... b=location

MN sends 4.3% to CA
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... b=location

USC only sends 3.6% to NY
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... b=location

MSP is a great city - it just doesn't have that many big law firms compared to the number of law graduates.

deebanger
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby deebanger » Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:18 am

so, is is safe to say that UMN is not to blame, but huge problem lies with with the state is in as Minnesota is a state where there not enough big law jobs, as Cali and Texas has much more big law jobs.

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kd5
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby kd5 » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:41 am

deebanger wrote:so, is is safe to say that UMN is not to blame, but huge problem lies with with the state is in as Minnesota is a state where there not enough big law jobs, as Cali and Texas has much more big law jobs.
Not only does MN have a more limited market than states like CA and NY, that small market is mostly in the Twin Cities, which has four total law schools. UMN places better than the others by a decent margin, but enough Hamline, St. Thomas, and William Mitchell grads get jobs to make the market even harder. Not necessarily talking about BigLaw jobs or jobs at the bigger local firms (although they certainly place some grads there), but in plenty of other opportunities like state clerkships, smaller/medium firms, government/public interest, etc.

If we only had three (or better: two) law schools in the state, the market would be less saturated.

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Nova
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby Nova » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:43 am

kd5 wrote:If we only had three (or better: two) law schools in the state, the market would be less saturated.

I heard Hamline might close
--LinkRemoved--

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kd5
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby kd5 » Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:48 am

Nova wrote:I heard Hamlin is probably gonna close.
--LinkRemoved--

I'll definitely feel bad for their current students if that happens, but it would be a good thing for the local legal market, so I hope it does.

hmd0224
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby hmd0224 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:02 pm

I am new on here but I was very excited at my acceptance to Minnesota. I am going into law for public interest and they have great programs and support there so this worry of big law isn't a concern for me although I could see it being for others. Just from my experience with them so far I am very pleased.

I got a large scholarship and they have continued communication with me even after acceptance.

I have emailed them a few times with questions and they have been very responsive and helpful, one lady even called me to discuss some things.

I am going to visit at the end of Jan so hopefully the weather does not totally depress me although I am from Colorado so though it might be less sunny, I think I can handle the cold.

I have a few meetings set up with people from the public interest section of career services when I visit which was really easy for me to set up.

I will let you know how it goes it anyone is interested.

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jbagelboy
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:47 pm

hmd0224 wrote:I am new on here but I was very excited at my acceptance to Minnesota. I am going into law for public interest and they have great programs and support there so this worry of big law isn't a concern for me although I could see it being for others. Just from my experience with them so far I am very pleased.

I got a large scholarship and they have continued communication with me even after acceptance.

I have emailed them a few times with questions and they have been very responsive and helpful, one lady even called me to discuss some things.

I am going to visit at the end of Jan so hopefully the weather does not totally depress me although I am from Colorado so though it might be less sunny, I think I can handle the cold.

I have a few meetings set up with people from the public interest section of career services when I visit which was really easy for me to set up.

I will let you know how it goes it anyone is interested.


Congrats on the acceptance/scholarship!

It's nice to see you so enthusiastic. The UMN admit wkends are pretty fun (I went in March last year) they do a decent job considering the inclement weather/lackluster facilities. And being a go-getter from the midwest situates you better than some.

Still, dont drink the recruitment kool-aid and stay wary and critical of any adcom correspondence or meetings with school reps. Realize that after all the smiles, handshakes, personalized call from the Dean, ect., the moment you arrive on campus in August they couldnt give less of a shit about you - this goes for almost any law school. Stay enthusiastic and positive about PI, but don't be fooled and fucked (although by even considering law school, all 0Ls are fucked to some degree).

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minnbills
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby minnbills » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:58 pm

Forget mobility, you will be hard pressed to get a job coming out of here. At least that's been my experience. I can count on two hands (maybe three) the number of people I know with big firm jobs, and I'd say half of those got them for diversity/science reasons.

I don't think the school is respected, even in the twin cities. Looking at our job board, even small firms doing low-level personal injury work require top third or top 25% to get an interview.

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jbagelboy
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Re: is University Of Minnessota law that depressing?

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:59 pm

minnbills wrote:Forget mobility, you will be hard pressed to get a job coming out of here. At least that's been my experience. I can count on two hands (maybe three) the number of people I know with big firm jobs, and I'd say half of those got them for diversity/science reasons.

I don't think the school is respected, even in the twin cities. Looking at our job board, even small firms doing low-level personal injury work require top third or top 25% to get an interview.


Ouch - it seems like your perspective has worsened/hardened over the past year. Care to elaborate?




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