Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

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Black Hat
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Black Hat » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:43 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Black Hat, there are plenty of people on this site who do genuinely want to be PDs and are going to school to be PDs. There are plenty of people who spend their career as PDs. There are also lots of people who start in biglaw at $160K but leave after a few years because the lifestyle is incompatible with - guess what - having a family.

That's great that you have your priorities clear and there's nothing wrong with them, but don't project them onto other people. Doing so makes you sound like a jackass.


I am not trying to project my opinion onto anyone, and I truly apologize if that is what it seems like. However, I am simply speaking in generalities. I certainly dont speak for everyone and I never claimed to be doing so.

But saying that money is a significant motivator in pretty much everyone's lives is not projection, as you say, it is a cold hard reality. Contending anything else is a moral fallacy.

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Black Hat
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Black Hat » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:51 pm

[/quote]
tl;dr. Nobody wants to hear your manifesto on the legal job market, 1L.[/quote]

You are reading, AND participating, in my manifesto. Thus, it would appear as though you do want to hear it. Otherwise you would simply ignore it and move on.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:57 pm

Black Hat wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Black Hat, there are plenty of people on this site who do genuinely want to be PDs and are going to school to be PDs. There are plenty of people who spend their career as PDs. There are also lots of people who start in biglaw at $160K but leave after a few years because the lifestyle is incompatible with - guess what - having a family.

That's great that you have your priorities clear and there's nothing wrong with them, but don't project them onto other people. Doing so makes you sound like a jackass.


I am not trying to project my opinion onto anyone, and I truly apologize if that is what it seems like. However, I am simply speaking in generalities. I certainly dont speak for everyone and I never claimed to be doing so.

But saying that money is a significant motivator in pretty much everyone's lives is not projection, as you say, it is a cold hard reality. Contending anything else is a moral fallacy.

You're moving the goalposts again. No one said that money isn't important or a motivator. That doesn't mean everyone makes the same choices about money, though.

Unfortunately this has all got rather far afield from the OP's original question.

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Borhas
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Borhas » Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:59 pm

Black Hat wrote:You are reading, AND participating, in my manifesto. Thus, it would appear as though you do want to hear it. Otherwise you would simply ignore it and move on.


You are assuming that someone has to read your massive text block to dismiss it

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kershka
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby kershka » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:17 pm

It has gotten very far afield hasn't it. :oops:

Black Hat, you seem to be a rather unhappy person and I am sincerely sorry if any of my comments offended you or contributed to that anger. I admit that I don't really understand your reactions since I don't share your values and believe that people are not so identical in their motivations as you argue but I wish you the best none-the-less. It sounds like you hope to earn a lucrative big-law job and become rich some day; you are certainly not alone in that goal and I wish you the very best in your endeavor. I was (and still am) somewhat confused by your desire to attend law school because law seems like an odd choice of profession given your goals. There is a shocking lack of jobs and even among those jobs available many do not pay particularly well. There are just many other fields with better job security, better pay, and (slightly) shorter hours that would seem to suit you apparent goals better. :?

Personally, I value being able to go home at 5pm and see my family and friends on the weekends so I never saw the appeal of BigLaw. Those that I worked with in the public sector likewise found BigLaw incompatible with many of their goals. Not only did they genuinely enjoy the work they did, but at least one wanted to be an active father in his son's life and another had recently gotten engaged and wanted to spend time with his fiance. I certainly agree that everyone values financial stability; I think being rich is just less important to some than it clearly is to you. The long hours and boring work just don't seem worth it, even with the otherwise appealing pay. Many other people (myself included) see clerking as one of the best legal jobs one can get, even with the low pay.

However, since the OP seems to be one of those people who cares less about money than other factors, this entire debate is rather irrelevant. Therefore to get back on topic, OP, are you set on only PD work or are you interested in other PI jobs as well? Also, the Bay Area is particularly hard to get no matter what legal job you are seeking. Do you have strong ties to the area and, especially if not, are you interested in any other areas? The more detail you can give us (without outing yourself, of course), the better advice we can give.

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Black Hat
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Black Hat » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:19 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Black Hat wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Black Hat, there are plenty of people on this site who do genuinely want to be PDs and are going to school to be PDs. There are plenty of people who spend their career as PDs. There are also lots of people who start in biglaw at $160K but leave after a few years because the lifestyle is incompatible with - guess what - having a family.

That's great that you have your priorities clear and there's nothing wrong with them, but don't project them onto other people. Doing so makes you sound like a jackass.


I am not trying to project my opinion onto anyone, and I truly apologize if that is what it seems like. However, I am simply speaking in generalities. I certainly dont speak for everyone and I never claimed to be doing so.

But saying that money is a significant motivator in pretty much everyone's lives is not projection, as you say, it is a cold hard reality. Contending anything else is a moral fallacy.

You're moving the goalposts again. No one said that money isn't important or a motivator. That doesn't mean everyone makes the same choices about money, though.

Unfortunately this has all got rather far afield from the OP's original question.


I wouldn't say I am moving them but perhaps I am refining them. The very basis of my assertion from the beginning has been predicated on money.

The very basis of PD jobs being less competitive/more available is because of money.

Again, this is what the argument has been from the beginning.

Of course everyone makes decisions about money differently. It is a powerful motivator, one which drives people from low paying PD jobs. Not my words, not my opinion, but fact.

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deadpanic
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby deadpanic » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:31 pm

BlackHat, when you graduate from your state TTT in a couple years, you will likely be begging for any legal job whatsoever. Out of USCe, you probably won't make much more than a PD, and it may actually be about the same amount, but with less benefits. So cool it with the snobbery until you are employed in any legal job.

If money was a motivating factor, you should've gone to a better school. Not trying to be an ass, but you have totally done the opposite of what you are arguing.

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Black Hat
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Black Hat » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:31 pm

kershka wrote:It has gotten very far afield hasn't it. :oops:

Black Hat, you seem to be a rather unhappy person and I am sincerely sorry if any of my comments offended you or contributed to that anger. I admit that I don't really understand your reactions since I don't share your values and believe that people are not so identical in their motivations as you argue but I wish you the best none-the-less. It sounds like you hope to earn a lucrative big-law job and become rich some day; you are certainly not alone in that goal and I wish you the very best in your endeavor. I was (and still am) somewhat confused by your desire to attend law school because law seems like an odd choice of profession given your goals. There is a shocking lack of jobs and even among those jobs available many do not pay particularly well. There are just many other fields with better job security, better pay, and (slightly) shorter hours that would seem to suit you apparent goals better. :?

Personally, I value being able to go home at 5pm and see my family and friends on the weekends so I never saw the appeal of BigLaw. Those that I worked with in the public sector likewise found BigLaw incompatible with many of their goals. Not only did they genuinely enjoy the work they did, but at least one wanted to be an active father in his son's life and another had recently gotten engaged and wanted to spend time with his fiance. I certainly agree that everyone values financial stability; I think being rich is just less important to some than it clearly is to you. The long hours and boring work just don't seem worth it, even with the otherwise appealing pay. Many other people (myself included) see clerking as one of the best legal jobs one can get, even with the low pay.

However, since the OP seems to be one of those people who cares less about money than other factors, this entire debate is rather irrelevant. Therefore to get back on topic, OP, are you set on only PD work or are you interested in other PI jobs as well? Also, the Bay Area is particularly hard to get no matter what legal job you are seeking. Do you have strong ties to the area and, especially if not, are you interested in any other areas? The more detail you can give us (without outing yourself, of course), the better advice we can give.



You haven't offended me; I am not angry and I apologize if that is how I have come off. And I apologize if I have offended you. Perhaps I may be a bit morose in regard to my opinion of the general human condition but that is the world we live in.

I don't want to be 'rich.' At least not the typical definition of rich (more than 250k a year). But I, like most people, want to be financially secure. The documentary I have been referring to has a female PD showcasing her inability to even pay for a tank of gas. This is the farthest thing from financial security I can imagine for a lawyer. I imagine financial security at around 60k to 80k a year. 60 thousand dollars is a lot of money.

The inability of a lawyer to be financially secure would, I believe, force them to make a change to become financially secure. This number is different for everyone. But it would likely not be at a PD's office, forcing a lot of PD's to flee.

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Black Hat
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Black Hat » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:39 pm

deadpanic wrote:BlackHat, when you graduate from your state TTT in a couple years, you will likely be begging for any legal job whatsoever. Out of USCe, you probably won't make much more than a PD, and it may actually be about the same amount, but with less benefits. So cool it with the snobbery until you are employed in any legal job.

If money was a motivating factor, you should've gone to a better school. Not trying to be an ass, but you have totally done the opposite of what you are arguing.


Actually SC has a pretty good employment rate within SC, and prosecutors (which is what I'd like to do) start at 50K a year (approximately).

50k a year is a lot of money to me, I don't know about you. I grew up poor. I still am poor and I had to join the MC just to pay for school. I would be happy making 50k a year for the rest of my life.

I am not a snob, and I am not saying I want to be a millionaire. As a matter of a fact being a PD would be a awesome job (that I'd love to have). Wanting to be a PD is the whole reason I even engaged in this read to begin with. The fact that you are making these preposterous insults means you haven't really understood a word I have said.

I SAID, people jump ship OFTEN from PD jobs for better pay else where. I didn't say I WOULD, I said others ARE. This is based on aforementioned FACTS, not my opinion.

Remove your head from your hind quarters, take my posts to school and decipher them, and then come back and apologize for being a jackass.

YOU are clearly the snob here.

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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby 03152016 » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:56 pm

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Last edited by 03152016 on Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Black Hat
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Black Hat » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:06 am

Max324 wrote:
Black Hat wrote:"All those attorneys at the ACLU/Innocence Project/NAACP etc. all secretly wish they had gotten those Big Law jobs instead but they just couldn't hack it at OCI?"

So yeah pretty much.


Black Hat wrote:SO, if I had to choose between 160k a year or 40k a year I would take the 160k in a heartbeat and I don't know ANYONE (especially in law school) that would do any different.

I am a realist and pretending anything than what I just said is reality is just sick self loathing fantasy.


Black Hat wrote:Even if one does PI work for a few years to satisfy that public service "need" crap and then moves on to something better, this would still buttress my contentions above.


Black Hat wrote:Don't give me that personal statement violin playing crap. I like the idea of being a lawyer too; I want to be a lawyer as well. But if I couldn't make more money doing this than I could doing something else I was interested in (for me police work/military) I wouldn't be doing it.


Black Hat wrote:So again, don't try and con me with that whole phony public service "I want to help people" punch line. It is awfully tired and very blatantly phony.


Black Hat wrote:I am not wasting 3 years of my life and lots of money to be stuck making 30k a year for the rest of my life, and neither is anyone else here. Saying otherwise makes you sound like a jackass.


Tone down the chest-thumping machismo. You're not helping your argument with statements like these; you're coming off as trading and ignorant. Instead of impugning the motives of those who've dedicated their lives to public service, maybe you should take some time to speak with them about how they arrived at their career choices.



I am pretty sure everything you just quoted from me was taken from one post directed at one particular user. I am, and will always be, amicable with anyone who will be amicable with me. So re-posting these and saying I am chest pumping is taking them out of context.

Let me be clear, I am not "dissing" public service people, I am simply saying that people are not drawn to them because of money, and most lawyers want to be paid well/have financial security. Some how these statements have been translated to me insulting the PI professions.

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Black Hat
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Black Hat » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:11 am

[/quote]

I am simply saying that people are not drawn to them because of money, and most lawyers want to be paid well/have financial security.[/quote]

This inst even arguable, but you alls attempts have been admirable.

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Dingo Starr
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Dingo Starr » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:22 am

Wow. I, for one, am SOOOOO disinterested in anything other than what the OP asked about.
Being in exactly the same boat as the OP, namely trying to get into a PD job in the Bay Area, I am very interested in the approaches of regional school applicants who are trying to work with what they've got.
Discussions about money or biglaw are irrelevant and belong elsewhere.
I want to hear more about how local schools have a leg up in the PD game.
Anyone with experience in this field please post up or PM me.

Cinderella
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Cinderella » Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:41 am

I just want to point out that Black Hat is drawing a lot of conclusions from that documentary that aren't true. Gideon's Army follows PD's in the south who work for tragically underfunded offices. It's not true that PD's can't own a house, pay for gas, or send their kids to school. At the opposite end of the spectrum, San Franscisco's PD pays entry level attorney's 100k (or close to it; I'm not going to look it up for this).

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kershka
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby kershka » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:11 am

Alright guys, this has gotten ridiculous.

Black Hat obviously has some very strong opinions. I think the rest of us disagree with those opinions but, just as obviously, we are never going to convince him/her otherwise. Were his responses overblown and rude? I think so but, personally, I don't care if some random person on the internet thinks that I'm a jackass phony with "sick self-loathing", or any of the numerous other things that he called me. I purposefully chose to stop arguing because it wasn't worth it. I know myself and my own goals well enough to know what will make me happy and they don't conform with Black Hat's view of the world and I imagine it is the same for the rest of you. We'll all do what we want (and are able to in this sub par legal market) after graduation and the opinions of any random person on an online forum aren't going to change that. Some of us are going to bust our asses and go for that 40-50K fed clerkship or PI position, some are going to bust their asses and go for that 160k biglaw job and hopefully we'll all be happy with our choices.

And, to the Admins out there and to the rest of you, I apologize for the contribution my earlier post played in derailing this thread. I was bothered by one of Black Hat's posts which seemed very insulting to some of the most intelligent, hard-working, successful, and caring people I had ever met and I reacted without properly considering my tone.

We're not helping the OP with the constant bickering. We either need to get back on topic or an Admin should lock this thread. This is all completely irrelevant to what schools OP should be looking at if he/she wants to work as a PD in the Bay Area.

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Black Hat
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Black Hat » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:19 am

Cinderella wrote:I just want to point out that Black Hat is drawing a lot of conclusions from that documentary that aren't true. Gideon's Army follows PD's in the south who work for tragically underfunded offices. It's not true that PD's can't own a house, pay for gas, or send their kids to school. At the opposite end of the spectrum, San Franscisco's PD pays entry level attorney's 100k (or close to it; I'm not going to look it up for this).


I'm not "drawing conclusions." If you read from the beginning you will see that I use speculative non conclusive language at best. E.g. "seems to indicate, not valid 'per se.'

And this whole conversation, from my point of view, has been about PD's in the south, since that is what the show was about.

Again, hardly conclusive, just thought it'd be interesting to discuss.

I am sure anything in a big city is WAY more competitive than in a small southern city, if you compare the two.

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Black Hat
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Re: Does law school location make a huge difference for PD jobs?

Postby Black Hat » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:28 am

"kershka"]

I know myself and my own goals well enough to know what will make me happy ... [w]e'll all do what we want.




That is what it is all about! Being happy! Good Luck!




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