HYS vs CCN $$$

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Florence Night
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Florence Night » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:37 pm

If you want biglaw and can go to CCN with $$$, going to HYS at somewhere in the ballpark of sticker is simply ridiculous.
Last edited by Florence Night on Mon May 19, 2014 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

abl
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby abl » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:48 pm

Median at Chicago is not particularly competitive for the more selective DC firms. Doesn't meant that it won't happen -- but it'll be a stretch. Some stretches like this will happen every year. There are a handful of less-selective DC biglaw firms, and I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago median is competitive for them.

On the other hand, median at YS at least is competitive for the more selective DC firms. This, of course, doesn't mean that you WILL get one of those firms at median at YS. Some who are median at YS who want DC won't get it every year. It may be the only market (SF would be a possibly second) where you could say this about YS.

There are definitely real differences--both experiential and career outcome-wise--between HYS and CCN, even for the median student who wants non-niche, non-prestigious biglaw in NY/Chicago. The question isn't whether those differences exist. The question is whether those differences justify tens of thousands of dollars in educational debt. My personal leaning is that they do -- but I've made most of my life choices around chasing marginal increases in quality of experience/outcome, even when that marginal increase is very expensive. So far that's worked out great for me. I am sure there are scores on the board who have made the opposite choices, and it's worked out great for them. You'll always find examples and counterexamples. I would wager that the purely professional increase in value of HYS over CCN for the above hypothetical student (someone wanting non-niche, non-prestigious biglaw in NY/Chicago) probably values somewhere between $25,000 and $150,000, depending on how risk averse you want to be (that accounts for the possibility that you are bottom 25% or top 25% and HYS makes a significant difference -- as well as the possibility that you are median and HYS only makes a slight difference). The purely professional value of HYS over CCN will increase for more niche practice areas, boutique law firms, elite public interest, government honors programs, clerkship, academia, etc. It'll decrease for someone who'd be happy going back to their hometown of Indianapolis and doing midlaw. For me, however, the real advantage of HYS is experiential-- you only have one shot at this law school thing...why not get the absolute BEST education around the absolute best students you possibly can?

So my advice to you is to think about (1) what your goals are, (2) how risk averse you are, and (3) how much the experience of HYS is worth to you. Then compare the total expected COA of HYS and CCN and see how that lines up. This should be highly personal for you. So the fact that the experience of HYS is worth >$100,000 to me shouldn't really factor into your decision -- nor should the fact that it may be worth <$10,000 to others on this board.

09042014
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:49 pm

lol at the "personal experience" being worth 100,000 dollars. Just lol.

abl
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby abl » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:51 pm

Florence Night wrote:If you want biglaw and can go to CCN with $$$, going to HYS at somewhere in the ballpark of sticker is simply ridiculous.

- CCN student.


I'd encourage you to ignore oversimplifications like this.

If you're highly risk averse, want to keep open your options of doing niche biglaw practice in a competitive locality, and value highly the experience of being surrounded by the best of the best, HYS at full cost over CCN at full ride could easily be the correct answer. It certainly won't be for everyone, but it may be for you.

orangecup
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby orangecup » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:53 pm

abl wrote:
Florence Night wrote:If you want biglaw and can go to CCN with $$$, going to HYS at somewhere in the ballpark of sticker is simply ridiculous.

- CCN student.


I'd encourage you to ignore oversimplifications like this.

If you're highly risk averse, want to keep open your options of doing niche biglaw practice in a competitive locality, and value highly the experience of being surrounded by the best of the best, HYS at full cost over CCN at full ride could easily be the correct answer. It certainly won't be for everyone, but it may be for you.


lol @ the bolded ever mattering. As if the student quality at YHS is really that much different from CCN.

abl
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby abl » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:01 pm

orangecup wrote:
abl wrote:
Florence Night wrote:If you want biglaw and can go to CCN with $$$, going to HYS at somewhere in the ballpark of sticker is simply ridiculous.

- CCN student.


I'd encourage you to ignore oversimplifications like this.

If you're highly risk averse, want to keep open your options of doing niche biglaw practice in a competitive locality, and value highly the experience of being surrounded by the best of the best, HYS at full cost over CCN at full ride could easily be the correct answer. It certainly won't be for everyone, but it may be for you.


lol @ the bolded ever mattering. As if the student quality at YHS is really that much different from CCN.


In the middle, there may be no real difference between a HYS law student and a CCN student. But at the top there definitely is. CCN gets its share of superstars, but it's nothing compared to HYS.

20141023
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby 20141023 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:15 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kaiser
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby kaiser » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:17 pm

abl wrote:
orangecup wrote:
abl wrote:
Florence Night wrote:If you want biglaw and can go to CCN with $$$, going to HYS at somewhere in the ballpark of sticker is simply ridiculous.

- CCN student.


I'd encourage you to ignore oversimplifications like this.

If you're highly risk averse, want to keep open your options of doing niche biglaw practice in a competitive locality, and value highly the experience of being surrounded by the best of the best, HYS at full cost over CCN at full ride could easily be the correct answer. It certainly won't be for everyone, but it may be for you.


lol @ the bolded ever mattering. As if the student quality at YHS is really that much different from CCN.


In the middle, there may be no real difference between a HYS law student and a CCN student. But at the top there definitely is. CCN gets its share of superstars, but it's nothing compared to HYS.


This is laughable nonsense. You could literally swap the entire student body of a CCN school and Harvard or Stanford, and not know the difference, superstars and all. Perhaps Yale truly is different, so I won't say their student body is essentially interchangeable, but as far as H and S go, I'm pretty comfortable making that claim.

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blank403
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby blank403 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:22 pm

abl wrote:Median at Chicago is not particularly competitive for the more selective DC firms. Doesn't meant that it won't happen -- but it'll be a stretch. Some stretches like this will happen every year. There are a handful of less-selective DC biglaw firms, and I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago median is competitive for them.

On the other hand, median at YS at least is competitive for the more selective DC firms. This, of course, doesn't mean that you WILL get one of those firms at median at YS. Some who are median at YS who want DC won't get it every year. It may be the only market (SF would be a possibly second) where you could say this about YS.


Point #1:

Where are you getting this information from?? Based on your post history, you went to Stanford. Albeit anecdotally, as a Chicago student, the above re: Chicago (and therefore, likely C/N) seems to be completely untrue. I know plenty of median people who had callbacks at "selective" DC firms (i.e., every notable firm but Williams and Connolly). Of course, anecdotes are anecdotes, but it's not like you have provided any real information to support your assertion.

abl wrote:I've made most of my life choices around chasing marginal increases in quality of experience/outcome, even when that marginal increase is very expensive. So far that's worked out great for me.

So my advice to you is to think about (1) what your goals are, (2) how risk averse you are, and (3) how much the experience of HYS is worth to you. Then compare the total expected COA of HYS and CCN and see how that lines up. This should be highly personal for you. So the fact that the experience of HYS is worth >$100,000 to me shouldn't really factor into your decision -- nor should the fact that it may be worth <$10,000 to others on this board.


Point #2:

Law school will teach you to do exactly what the above quote does. Justify irrational choices by making fairly clear-cut decisions seem overly ambiguous. Only some law school turd is going to try to tell you that his "personal experience" was worth $100k. Congrats on being a trust fund baby?

Think about what this means for your first 5 years of work, assuming you get big law. A full debt load now is approaching $300k when you account for tuition increases and interest accumulation for non-subsidized loans. Your loan payments are going to be approaching 50% of your take-home salary as a first year if you are working in New York. Take a look at the Student Loan Payment thread in the employment forum to get a sense of this if you have to, but the downside is fairly unambiguous.

See, e.g., the response of someone in big law with a real debt load:

Desert Fox wrote:lol at the "personal experience" being worth 100,000 dollars. Just lol.


And finally, this nonsense by abl:

orangecup wrote:
abl wrote:
If you're highly risk averse, want to keep open your options of doing niche biglaw practice in a competitive locality, and value highly the experience of being surrounded by the best of the best, HYS at full cost over CCN at full ride could easily be the correct answer. It certainly won't be for everyone, but it may be for you.


lol @ the bolded ever mattering. As if the student quality at YHS is really that much different from CCN.


Oh yes, PLEASE spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to HYS to be "surrounded by the best of the best."

Of course, by "best of the best," he means people who were strivers in undergrad and overachieved to the tune of a 3.8 GPA instead of a 3.6, or people who guessed right on two more questions on the LSAT to cross the threshold of acceptable scores for HYS. Alternatively, you might see a few of those people at CCN too: you know, the people who could fully appreciate the value of hundreds of thousands of dollars and decided that their self-worth wasn't defined by LSAT/GPA/USNews.
Last edited by blank403 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby 09042014 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:23 pm

The difference is student quality is pretty much zilch. We are talking about a 1-2 point LSAT difference. Someone top10% at HLS would be like top 9% at CCN.

Now go run the payment difference on 100k in loans and 250k in loans. Tell me if that is nearly zero difference.

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blank403
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby blank403 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:32 pm

abl wrote:
orangecup wrote:
abl wrote:
Florence Night wrote:If you want biglaw and can go to CCN with $$$, going to HYS at somewhere in the ballpark of sticker is simply ridiculous.

- CCN student.


I'd encourage you to ignore oversimplifications like this.

If you're highly risk averse, want to keep open your options of doing niche biglaw practice in a competitive locality, and value highly the experience of being surrounded by the best of the best, HYS at full cost over CCN at full ride could easily be the correct answer. It certainly won't be for everyone, but it may be for you.


lol @ the bolded ever mattering. As if the student quality at YHS is really that much different from CCN.


In the middle, there may be no real difference between a HYS law student and a CCN student. But at the top there definitely is. CCN gets its share of superstars, but it's nothing compared to HYS.


OP, if you cannot see the egregious trolling by abl here, I don't think any amount of reasoned logic is going to save you. Arguably the dumbest series of posts I have seen on this board ever.

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2014
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby 2014 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:53 pm

So if I'm a median bro at CLS, abl thinks I have a discounted value of six figures by being surrounded by 400 intelligent fucks at Harvard instead of 300 at CLS? I'm sure the 400 at Harvard is more likely to include a future senator, scotus member, potus or w/e mostly because 400>300 but slightly because Harvard is Harvard, but how exactly am I going to extract 100k+ in discounted value from that? Like I said earlier, it only makes sense for people with specific goals, not moderately intelligent median bro who just wants to do big law for 3 years and peace to in house (aka literally this entire forum).

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nothingtosee
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby nothingtosee » Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:57 pm

Is this minimum per year or minimum over three?

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sinfiery
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby sinfiery » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:32 pm

abl wrote:
orangecup wrote:
abl wrote:
Florence Night wrote:If you want biglaw and can go to CCN with $$$, going to HYS at somewhere in the ballpark of sticker is simply ridiculous.

- CCN student.


I'd encourage you to ignore oversimplifications like this.

If you're highly risk averse, want to keep open your options of doing niche biglaw practice in a competitive locality, and value highly the experience of being surrounded by the best of the best, HYS at full cost over CCN at full ride could easily be the correct answer. It certainly won't be for everyone, but it may be for you.


lol @ the bolded ever mattering. As if the student quality at YHS is really that much different from CCN.


In the middle, there may be no real difference between a HYS law student and a CCN student. But at the top there definitely is. CCN gets its share of superstars, but it's nothing compared to HYS.

Considering HYS yield rate, this is only even potentially true for Y.

One thing TLS teaches you is how basic admissions criteria are and it really puts into perspective how silly the argument you make is.

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jbagelboy
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:53 pm

Abl is saying Harvard is worth $100,000 more than UChicago or Columbia or NYU for the educational experience? Just lol.

Also re: quality of student body: basically you're fucked in the head
Last edited by jbagelboy on Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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sinfiery
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby sinfiery » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:14 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Abl is saying Harvard law, one of the biggest, most anonymous and competitive law school populations with continuous & noted failings towards its own student body (to which many students can attest) located in cambridge (beautiful but boring) massachusetts, is worth $100,000 more than UChicago (well known for best profs and programs) or Columbia for the educational experience? Just lol.

Also re: quality of student body: basically you're fucked in the head


YLS may be a bit ahead but after that, it's a pretty tight race

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soj
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby soj » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:36 pm

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NYstate
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby NYstate » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:41 pm

The risk averse move is to minimize debt. I have no debt from CCN. I get the same work and the same bonus as the HYS grads at my firm. My life is much better having no loan payments and no stress.
Many 0Ls have the same (incorrect) opinion about the difference between Harvard and CCN in the real world.

20141023
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby 20141023 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:45 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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soj
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby soj » Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:49 pm

my bad

Mal Reynolds
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Mal Reynolds » Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:16 pm

soj wrote:my bad


Don't worry if bagel boy didn't say it, someone else from our class would have.

Nooblarzlarz
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Nooblarzlarz » Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:30 pm

So if one were gunning for Article 3 clerkships and BigFed work (and thus activate your LRAP options), does that put HYS above CCN?

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jbagelboy
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:45 pm

Nooblarzlarz wrote:So if one were gunning for Article 3 clerkships and BigFed work (and thus activate your LRAP options), does that put HYS above CCN?


Sure. No one is saying there arent some differences for exclusive employment outcomes.

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jselson
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby jselson » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:20 pm

I chose H over a Butler last year, and no one that I've talked to here has worried one iota about grades, at least in terms of just getting a good job. I'm not particularly fond of NYC, and I'm mostly shooting for Boston/DC/maybe CA. If I loved NYC and wanted NYC over anywhere, I might have chosen differently. But I freakin' love Boston.

Florence Night
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Florence Night » Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:23 pm

NYstate wrote:The risk averse move is to minimize debt. I have no debt from CCN. I get the same work and the same bonus as the HYS grads at my firm. My life is much better having no loan payments and no stress.
Many 0Ls have the same (incorrect) opinion about the difference between Harvard and CCN in the real world.


This is where I was coming from. There are people at both CCN and HYS who want biglaw and don't get it, and your chances of striking out aren't drastically different from the two bands (i.e. if you struck out at CCN, there's a good chance you would've struck out at HYS, too.) Having little or no debt makes striking out a much, much better situation.

And yeah, if you do get biglaw, you'll be working in your firm next to sticker-paying HYS colleagues thanking some deity you did what you did.




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