HYS vs CCN $$$

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2014
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby 2014 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:10 pm

At the dredges of the GPA scale HYS' prestige carries some weight I imagine.

At median (and by median I mean 25th percentile to about 75th percentile since neither firms nor you know what median actually is) it's almost a complete wash and should you fail to get employed at NYU at median it's almost certainly a non-grade issue and you would have failed at HYS too. I sip the koolaid a little bit, but I think at median Chicago carries a slight advantage over CLS, NYU and potentially Harvard because of class size, but again the odds are in your favor at all of them.

From 75th to 90th percentiles HYS probably has a decided advantage *if* you want to clerk

At 90th percentile plus I think it gravitates back to being a wash since at those grades you will likely be in play for a competitive clerkship coming out of any of them.

At the very top HYS has a SCOTUS clerk advantage.

Throughout the scale if you have non-law or political ambitions, Harvard probably trumps anything else for network reasons.


By the time you add in a Hamilton/Ruby or serious money, I think it's an easy call for CCN for the overwhelming majority of people. Once you start to have non-standard goals, HYS might be closer, but even then, if your non-standard goals are clerking you should probably think hard about why you want to clerk and whether keeping the option open for another 10% of a class full of people as smart or smarter than you is really worth 100 grand or more.

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thewaves
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby thewaves » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:07 pm

Is there any evidence that the smaller class sizes at Y or S (or even as the above poster mentions, Chicago) give them an edge over H for biglaw placement? I can see how the smaller class sizes at Y and S make it seemingly less competitive than H.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:25 pm

thewaves wrote:Is there any evidence that the smaller class sizes at Y or S (or even as the above poster mentions, Chicago) give them an edge over H for biglaw placement? I can see how the smaller class sizes at Y and S make it seemingly less competitive than H.

All I can offer is anecdotal evidence right now, but for Y, definitely. For S vs. H, I think it depends on your location preference. H dominates NYC and DC, but S would probably have some of an advantage on the west coast (unless that's washed out by the larger percentage of people from S that want to do SF/LA biglaw compared to H).

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby soj » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:40 pm

There are people at HYS without biglaw, and not for the lack of trying. If you really think everyone who wanted biglaw has it, open your eyes. They're probably rarer than at CCN, but no one who wants biglaw should turn down CCN $$$.

As for H vs S, doorkeeper didn't even do oci so I'm not sure why he feels qualified to comment.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby soj » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:42 pm

Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Kimikho » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:50 pm

soj wrote:Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.


because of the debt or something else?

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby soj » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:54 pm

scoobers wrote:
soj wrote:Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.


because of the debt or something else?

Because of the debt.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby 09042014 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:55 pm

soj wrote:
scoobers wrote:
soj wrote:Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.


because of the debt or something else?

Because of the debt.


Sally Mae doesn't take prestige?

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Doorkeeper
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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:09 pm

soj wrote:As for H vs S, doorkeeper didn't even do oci so I'm not sure why he feels qualified to comment.

Although there's obviously a correlation, doing OCI =/= knowing information.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:31 am

soj wrote:Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.


I have friends from both sides (HLS and 2L at CLS with the choice) who can +1 this

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby lawschool22 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:39 am

jbagelboy wrote:
soj wrote:Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.


I have friends from both sides (HLS and 2L at CLS with the choice) who can +1 this


Is this sentiment basically for those with NYC biglaw as the primary goal? What about other markets such as DC big law (my primary interest)? Is the HLS advantage worth more in that instance? From people you know, at what level of scholarship does it make sense to choose CCN over H if a competitive market other than NYC is the goal?

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:45 am

lawschool22 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
soj wrote:Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.


I have friends from both sides (HLS and 2L at CLS with the choice) who can +1 this


Is this sentiment basically for those with NYC biglaw as the primary goal? What about other markets such as DC big law (my primary interest)? Is the HLS advantage worth more in that instance? From people you know, at what level of scholarship does it make sense to choose CCN over H if a competitive market other than NYC is the goal?

I think this sentiment is right for most major biglaw markets. DC is a bit different because it's very selective to begin with, and so your grades will matter no matter which T6 you go to (except maybe Y). This being said, H and S probably do make it easier, grade-wise to get DC. I don't know the cut-offs for CCN, but from H you probably need to be top 30-40% to be competitive for DC. This being said, I know people at median from H who got DC, but I also know people above median from H who got destroyed by DC. DC firms also really disfavor K-JDs compared to those with relevant, especially DC-focused pre-law school experience. I doubt the bump from CCN to HS for DC is really worth the money unless you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO be in DC.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby lawschool22 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:48 am

Doorkeeper wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
soj wrote:Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.


I have friends from both sides (HLS and 2L at CLS with the choice) who can +1 this


Is this sentiment basically for those with NYC biglaw as the primary goal? What about other markets such as DC big law (my primary interest)? Is the HLS advantage worth more in that instance? From people you know, at what level of scholarship does it make sense to choose CCN over H if a competitive market other than NYC is the goal?

I think this sentiment is right for most major biglaw markets. DC is a bit different because it's very selective to begin with, and so your grades will matter no matter which T6 you go to (except maybe Y). This being said, H and S probably do make it easier, grade-wise to get DC. I don't know the cut-offs for CCN, but from H you probably need to be top 30-40% to be competitive for DC. This being said, I know people at median from H who got DC, but I also know people above median from H who got destroyed by DC. DC firms also really disfavor K-JDs compared to those with relevant, especially DC-focused pre-law school experience. I doubt the bump from CCN to HS for DC is really worth the money unless you ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO be in DC.


Thanks for the info. That fits fairly well with most of the info I've picked up from various conversations on this topic. I don't *have* to have DC by any means, I just prefer it to NYC by a wide stretch. That could obviously change a lot if I lived in NYC for a longer amount of time. Part of it is just my comfort with DC is a lot higher. I've spent significant time there for work so I know the city better.

I'm not K-JD so hopefully that works in my favor. I guess the smart play is probably to take the money at CCN, get the best grades you can, shoot for DC, but if that falls through be sure you're comfortable with NYC biglaw.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby jingosaur » Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:51 am

@ The people going to Harvard. Do you guys know what the Business/Industry jobs out of HLS consist of?

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby kaiser » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:09 am

jingosaur wrote:I would love some input by law students and grads who were in this position.


Co-worker of mine went to Harvard. He has mentioned on a few occasions that he wished he took the full scholarship he was offered at Penn and avoided the debt. He feels that way about passing up a full scholarship at Penn, so I'd imagine the feeling would only be stronger if it were CCN with full scholly.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:11 am

lawschool22 wrote:Thanks for the info. That fits fairly well with most of the info I've picked up from various conversations on this topic. I don't *have* to have DC by any means, I just prefer it to NYC by a wide stretch. That could obviously change a lot if I lived in NYC for a longer amount of time. Part of it is just my comfort with DC is a lot higher. I've spent significant time there for work so I know the city better.

I'm not K-JD so hopefully that works in my favor. I guess the smart play is probably to take the money at CCN, get the best grades you can, shoot for DC, but if that falls through be sure you're comfortable with NYC biglaw.

What about Chicago?

For people at CCN, do you have any idea what grades are necessary to be competitive for DC biglaw?

jingosaur wrote:@ The people going to Harvard. Do you guys know what the Business/Industry jobs out of HLS consist of?

I'm not positive, but Harvard has a good number of JD/MBAs, and I have a few friends interviewing for finance (IB or PE mostly) and/or consulting gigs instead of biglaw. Those two are probably the most common.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby lawschool22 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:18 am

Doorkeeper wrote:
lawschool22 wrote:Thanks for the info. That fits fairly well with most of the info I've picked up from various conversations on this topic. I don't *have* to have DC by any means, I just prefer it to NYC by a wide stretch. That could obviously change a lot if I lived in NYC for a longer amount of time. Part of it is just my comfort with DC is a lot higher. I've spent significant time there for work so I know the city better.

I'm not K-JD so hopefully that works in my favor. I guess the smart play is probably to take the money at CCN, get the best grades you can, shoot for DC, but if that falls through be sure you're comfortable with NYC biglaw.

What about Chicago?


I'm certainly not opposed to Chicago. I grew up in the Midwest so I'm very comfortable in Chicago as well. I always got the feeling that it was fairly competitive as well (though not DC-competitive) just because there's fewer slots available.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby heythatslife » Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:54 am

Here's my situation, a variation on the OP: HYS or CCN $$$ for a foreign student? (Have HS in the bag, pending at Y, Chicago has offered interview)

Factors to consider:
1) EFC is close to 0, so I'm expecting to receive a decent amount of grant in financial aid package from HYS. Difference in CoA will probably be around 70~90k IF one of CCN offers full ride, I'm guessing.
2) HY provide institutional loans. Not sure about S. For CCN I have to make up the remainder from private lenders (co-signer required + higher interest rate)
3) High likelihood that I'll be working outside the US at some point in my career, though not right out of school.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby soj » Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:09 am

heythatslife wrote:Here's my situation, a variation on the OP: HYS or CCN $$$ for a foreign student? (Have HS in the bag, pending at Y, Chicago has offered interview)

Factors to consider:
1) EFC is close to 0, so I'm expecting to receive a decent amount of grant in financial aid package from HYS. Difference in CoA will probably be around 70~90k IF one of CCN offers full ride, I'm guessing.
2) HY provide institutional loans. Not sure about S. For CCN I have to make up the remainder from private lenders (co-signer required + higher interest rate)
3) High likelihood that I'll be working outside the US at some point in my career, though not right out of school.

You're still throwing away free $ by going to HYS. HY institutional loans have usuriously high interest rates, so going with private lenders could actually be a better option if they're available.

If by working outside the US you mean working at a foreign firm or the foreign office of a US firm, do yourself a favor and keep your debt down.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby 2014 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:33 am

UChi does fine in DC as far as I can tell, I know multiple people at roughly median who had DC offers. Keep in mind that at H you are competing with more people who want DC and there are only so many slots. I think CCN is still preferable to HYS if your goal is just DC big law. If your reason for wanting to be in DC is to do something political or access some obscure niche agency, H might make more sense.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue Dec 24, 2013 2:51 am

2014 wrote:UChi does fine in DC as far as I can tell, I know multiple people at roughly median who had DC offers. Keep in mind that at H you are competing with more people who want DC and there are only so many slots. I think CCN is still preferable to HYS if your goal is just DC big law. If your reason for wanting to be in DC is to do something political or access some obscure niche agency, H might make more sense.

Wow. Chi gets to DC on median? That's really interesting.

That would probably change my calculus as well for DC biglaw. I agree that HYS would still hold for fed gov/politics though.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby 2014 » Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:42 am

Doorkeeper wrote:
2014 wrote:UChi does fine in DC as far as I can tell, I know multiple people at roughly median who had DC offers. Keep in mind that at H you are competing with more people who want DC and there are only so many slots. I think CCN is still preferable to HYS if your goal is just DC big law. If your reason for wanting to be in DC is to do something political or access some obscure niche agency, H might make more sense.

Wow. Chi gets to DC on median? That's really interesting.

That would probably change my calculus as well for DC biglaw. I agree that HYS would still hold for fed gov/politics though.

Only like 15% of our class even wants it and "median" encompasses a pretty wide spread of grades since our grading system is convoluted. Both probably help a bit.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby hung jury » Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:39 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
soj wrote:Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.


I have friends from both sides (HLS and 2L at CLS with the choice) who can +1 this


I'll +1 as well. Semi-regret it for the same reasons: the debt.

I'm '14 so one thing I'll add that hasn't been said is that some of us made our decision when COA at HYS was a lot lower and with incomplete information. I chose HYS in part because of a nice need-based aid offer but my effective tuition rate (after subtracting aid) has risen far faster than the annual increases in tuition. Two years of tuition hikes/decreased aid hasn't killed my debt load but if I were class of '17 the full ride would be worth a lot more than it was when I chose, particularly once you factor in the likelihood that the effective tuition rate will keep rising while class of '17 is making its way through school.

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby Ti Malice » Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:12 am

hung jury wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
soj wrote:Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.


I have friends from both sides (HLS and 2L at CLS with the choice) who can +1 this


I'll +1 as well. Semi-regret it for the same reasons: the debt.

I'm '14 so one thing I'll add that hasn't been said is that some of us made our decision when COA at HYS was a lot lower and with incomplete information. I chose HYS in part because of a nice need-based aid offer but my effective tuition rate (after subtracting aid) has risen far faster than the annual increases in tuition. Two years of tuition hikes/decreased aid hasn't killed my debt load but if I were class of '17 the full ride would be worth a lot more than it was when I chose, particularly once you factor in the likelihood that the effective tuition rate will keep rising while class of '17 is making its way through school.


Interesting. The tuition at Y climbs every year, of course, but my need-based aid covers all of the increase. Having never even momentarily entertained the idea of working in BigLaw obviously has something to do with that. Are your aid reductions due to anything other than SA income?

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Re: HYS vs CCN $$$

Postby hung jury » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:06 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
hung jury wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
soj wrote:Also, not sure why 0Ls are insisting on firsthand experience, but here I am. I was lucky enough to choose between HYS and CCN $$$ and regrettably chose HYS.


I have friends from both sides (HLS and 2L at CLS with the choice) who can +1 this


I'll +1 as well. Semi-regret it for the same reasons: the debt.

I'm '14 so one thing I'll add that hasn't been said is that some of us made our decision when COA at HYS was a lot lower and with incomplete information. I chose HYS in part because of a nice need-based aid offer but my effective tuition rate (after subtracting aid) has risen far faster than the annual increases in tuition. Two years of tuition hikes/decreased aid hasn't killed my debt load but if I were class of '17 the full ride would be worth a lot more than it was when I chose, particularly once you factor in the likelihood that the effective tuition rate will keep rising while class of '17 is making its way through school.


Interesting. The tuition at Y climbs every year, of course, but my need-based aid covers all of the increase. Having never even momentarily entertained the idea of working in BigLaw obviously has something to do with that. Are your aid reductions due to anything other than SA income?


Yes, the reduction has largely been a result of Stanford raising its minimum contribution for all need-based students. Stanford's minimum student contribution has gone from $28500 in 2009-2010 to $39000 for 2013-2014. That's a 37% increase from my application year to my graduation year. I'd have to check the math but a quick approximation suggests they have covered zero of the tuition increases.

S had a sizable lead in need-based aid when I enrolled, at least for most aid cases, but I suspect we've fallen behind Yale. Certainly a big enough difference that I'd rethink my decision if I were class of '17, particularly given the trajectory of the minimum student contribution.




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