University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

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KatyMarie
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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby KatyMarie » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:10 pm

jingosaur wrote:
KatyMarie wrote:
gregfootball2001 wrote: tl;dr: Retake, go to Harvard.


Lol!! I feel like no matter what question I ask on here, at least half the responses are some variation of that...


TBF, after getting that advice from someone on TLS, I retook and got into Harvard. I'm pretty happy about taking the advice.


Congratulations!! That's really wonderful.

I wasn't trying to say that it's always bad advice, but it isn't always the best advice either depending on the person.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby BigZuck » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:15 pm

KatyMarie wrote:
jingosaur wrote:
KatyMarie wrote:
gregfootball2001 wrote: tl;dr: Retake, go to Harvard.


Lol!! I feel like no matter what question I ask on here, at least half the responses are some variation of that...


TBF, after getting that advice from someone on TLS, I retook and got into Harvard. I'm pretty happy about taking the advice.


Congratulations!! That's really wonderful.

I wasn't trying to say that it's always bad advice, but it isn't always the best advice either depending on the person.


It's almost always the best advice depending on the person. Even if their parents are paying and they are going to the same school regardless, squeezing out a few extra points and saving their parents thousands of dollars is the right thing to do.

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KatyMarie
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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby KatyMarie » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:35 pm

BigZuck wrote:It's almost always the best advice depending on the person. Even if their parents are paying and they are going to the same school regardless, squeezing out a few extra points and saving their parents thousands of dollars is the right thing to do.


Everyone has a point at which they just can't go any higher. I could retake the LSAT until I'm dead and probably not ever get a 180. I'm just saying that there's a lot of perfectionists here, and at some point, it's okay to say "XXX is good enough for me," and move on with your life. Is 155 that point? Probably not. But I got a lot of advice on here to retake my 169, but after talking to my LSAT tutor about my goals, I decided it was good enough. I don't need or want to go to HYS and spend years and years paying off my student debt. Some people do, and that works for them. Everyone is different.

Sidenote -> Does anyone's parents actually pay for their child's law school? Of course having money out of the equation would drastically change your decision.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby jingosaur » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:52 pm

KatyMarie wrote:
BigZuck wrote:It's almost always the best advice depending on the person. Even if their parents are paying and they are going to the same school regardless, squeezing out a few extra points and saving their parents thousands of dollars is the right thing to do.


Everyone has a point at which they just can't go any higher. I could retake the LSAT until I'm dead and probably not ever get a 180. I'm just saying that there's a lot of perfectionists here, and at some point, it's okay to say "XXX is good enough for me," and move on with your life. Is 155 that point? Probably not. But I got a lot of advice on here to retake my 169, but after talking to my LSAT tutor about my goals, I decided it was good enough. I don't need or want to go to HYS and spend years and years paying off my student debt. Some people do, and that works for them. Everyone is different.

Sidenote -> Does anyone's parents actually pay for their child's law school? Of course having money out of the equation would drastically change your decision.


I had a 169 when I was told to retake. But I get your point. It really depends on the person. I chose to retake because my LSN score for Penn with a 169 was 3% and my LSN score for Penn with a 170 was 39% and that was my target school at the time.

And thanks Bedsole!!!

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby BigZuck » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:33 pm

KatyMarie wrote:
BigZuck wrote:It's almost always the best advice depending on the person. Even if their parents are paying and they are going to the same school regardless, squeezing out a few extra points and saving their parents thousands of dollars is the right thing to do.


Everyone has a point at which they just can't go any higher. I could retake the LSAT until I'm dead and probably not ever get a 180. I'm just saying that there's a lot of perfectionists here, and at some point, it's okay to say "XXX is good enough for me," and move on with your life. Is 155 that point? Probably not. But I got a lot of advice on here to retake my 169, but after talking to my LSAT tutor about my goals, I decided it was good enough. I don't need or want to go to HYS and spend years and years paying off my student debt. Some people do, and that works for them. Everyone is different.

Sidenote -> Does anyone's parents actually pay for their child's law school? Of course having money out of the equation would drastically change your decision.


If a 169 can get you a full ride at the school of your choice then of course it's good enough. If you need a higher score to get a full ride at the school of your choice then a 169 is not good enough and you should retake.

That's just basic logic. Of course a 169 can be enough (or overkill) depending on the circumstances.

Plenty of parents pay for their kids law school.

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KatyMarie
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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby KatyMarie » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:58 pm

BigZuck wrote:Plenty of parents pay for their kids law school.


Is it too late for them to adopt me?

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby BigZuck » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:00 pm

KatyMarie wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Plenty of parents pay for their kids law school.


Is it too late for them to adopt me?


Preach sister

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby FinanceStudent28 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:26 pm

gregfootball2001 wrote:Depends on how you define "best."

Emory has better placement overall. It places 29% of its class in law firms of 100+ lawyers and federal clerkships (which is what we'll call "big law" - your definition may vary). A good number of these positions are outside Georgia, but a good number of the class will stay in-state. (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers)

Georgia is at a hair over 24% for 100+ lawyers and fed clerkships. Almost everyone will stay in Georgia. (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers)

So, looking at the pure numbers, Emory is 5% better.

However, there's one thing to keep in mind. According to LST, the non-discounted cost of Emory is $259,887. (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=emory)

For Georgia, it's $126,671 for in-state students. (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=georgia)

Now, not every student that goes to Georgia is in-state, of course - but UGA gives out a one year "equalizer" scholarship to many, if not most, of the out-of-state students. After the one year, you can pretty easily become a resident.

But don't forget that Emory gives out quite a few scholarships. So that difference of about 133k could easily become less, depending on your situation. Add in the fact that it's usually more expensive to live around Atlanta than Athens, however, and I wouldn't be surprised if the average difference ran about 100k.

Is that worth an extra 5% of placement? I don't know. So while the pure, numbers driven answer to your post is that Emory is better at getting kids jobs, it comes with quite a hefty price tag. Which is "better?" Depends on your risk-adverseness vs your debt-adverseness, I suppose.

tl;dr: Retake, go to Harvard.


Awesome and thorough answer. Thanks.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby AT9 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:24 pm

FinanceStudent28 wrote:
gregfootball2001 wrote:Depends on how you define "best."

Emory has better placement overall. It places 29% of its class in law firms of 100+ lawyers and federal clerkships (which is what we'll call "big law" - your definition may vary). A good number of these positions are outside Georgia, but a good number of the class will stay in-state. (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers)

Georgia is at a hair over 24% for 100+ lawyers and fed clerkships. Almost everyone will stay in Georgia. (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers)

So, looking at the pure numbers, Emory is 5% better.

However, there's one thing to keep in mind. According to LST, the non-discounted cost of Emory is $259,887. (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=emory)

For Georgia, it's $126,671 for in-state students. (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=georgia)

Now, not every student that goes to Georgia is in-state, of course - but UGA gives out a one year "equalizer" scholarship to many, if not most, of the out-of-state students. After the one year, you can pretty easily become a resident.

But don't forget that Emory gives out quite a few scholarships. So that difference of about 133k could easily become less, depending on your situation. Add in the fact that it's usually more expensive to live around Atlanta than Athens, however, and I wouldn't be surprised if the average difference ran about 100k.

Is that worth an extra 5% of placement? I don't know. So while the pure, numbers driven answer to your post is that Emory is better at getting kids jobs, it comes with quite a hefty price tag. Which is "better?" Depends on your risk-adverseness vs your debt-adverseness, I suppose.

tl;dr: Retake, go to Harvard.


Awesome and thorough answer. Thanks.


Beating a dead horse, but I don't know that you can call either of Emory/UGA "better." It's just Georgia's version of UCLA vs. USC, Wake vs. NC, UF vs. FSU, etc. Really comes down to cost, location, and personal preferences/situations.

Regarding Alabama, all I know is that they started issuing decisions some time ago, but I'm still waiting to hear back. I applied early and have been admitted to Vandy and WUSTL, and to other peer schools with $$. Strange to think that Bama may join Duke as my only other waitlist. I don't have any idea how they pull in people with such high numbers...I mean, it's Alabama...not exactly where most people dream of beginning their careers.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby 20141023 » Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:57 am

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby SnazzleFrazzle89 » Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:10 am

KatyMarie wrote:I'm kind of interested too OP... Their rankings jumped from 38 to 21 in 4 years. I don't know enough about the rankings to know if that means that they're unstable, or if I can assume that they're on the way up. UGA is lower ranked (33), but places well in Atlanta. It's possible that these rankings mean jack shit and I should just be looking at LST, but I don't know.

With UGA and Alabama both on my list, both with good scholarships, I don't know which would would put me in better shape.



In knowing the Atlanta legal market very well, I'll tell you this: If "Big Law" is what you're aiming for, choose UGA over Alabama. Your shots from either are going to be less than the southern T14s (UVA, Duke, Vanderbilt), but your chances with a J.D. from UGA will be much better than with a J.D. from Alabama. Why? UGA alumni network > UA alumni network in Atlanta.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby deebanger » Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:30 am

SnazzleFrazzle89 wrote:
KatyMarie wrote:I'm kind of interested too OP... Their rankings jumped from 38 to 21 in 4 years. I don't know enough about the rankings to know if that means that they're unstable, or if I can assume that they're on the way up. UGA is lower ranked (33), but places well in Atlanta. It's possible that these rankings mean jack shit and I should just be looking at LST, but I don't know.

With UGA and Alabama both on my list, both with good scholarships, I don't know which would would put me in better shape.



In knowing the Atlanta legal market very well, I'll tell you this: If "Big Law" is what you're aiming for, choose UGA over Alabama. Your shots from either are going to be less than the southern T14s (UVA, Duke, Vanderbilt), but your chances with a J.D. from UGA will be much better than with a J.D. from Alabama. Why? UGA alumni network > UA alumni network in Atlanta.



Hey! since your familiar with atlanta legal market, how would you say the chances are at getting atlanta or georgia small law or midlaw if u miss out on big law during uga oci. And how is the legal climate overall in Georgia? is the hiring much better than how it was in 2008-2010? thank u so much!

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby SnazzleFrazzle89 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:24 pm

UGA for ATL Big Law: Top 15% of the class is the absolute floor for Big Law, barring the possibility that you're the son or daughter of a firm's managing partner. Top 10% puts you in a good spot.

Georgia State: You need to be #1 through #10 in your class. Outside of that, no Big Law for you.

As for the mid-law and small law market, there are jobs out there, but you'll need to bust your ass to find them. Family Law is a great pratice to look into, along with immigration law. You won't be putting on golden parachute pants with your first job, but you'll make a decent salary (provided you do not have a massive amount of debt).

Source: Head honcho of a Big Law firm in ATL that I know well. As I start making my plans to apply next cycle, it has been extremely helpful to have this advice to go off of.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby AllTheLawz » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:35 pm

If you are targeting Atlanta, be weary. No school outside of HYS places well in Atlanta. Atlanta biglaw hiring is pretty much a hells cape. If I were dead set on Atlanta and choosing between lower T-14 and UGA with a full scholarship I would choose UGA (though being dead set on Atlanta is not a good idea and in reality choose T-14 for national placement factor).

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby NYstate » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:48 pm

How many biglaw jobs are there in Atlanta? It is a really small market. Do they hire more than 100 or 200 people total in biglaw? I don't know the firms to do the math, but it has to be small.

I wouldn't go to any school that required top 10% plus connections ( which hasn't been mentioned here but are a crucial requirement) for the job I wanted.

You simply can't count on doing that well.

Retake a try for a better school is the best advise if you want biglaw in ATL. But if you don't have connections, I'm not sure that median at a T 14 gets you Atlanta.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby KatyMarie » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:31 pm

I work in a Biglaw firm in Atlanta. Lots of Vanderbilt, Duke, and UVA recent grads around here....that's just my experience though. I do think Alabama or UGA would be a tougher road.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:41 pm

kj
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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:47 pm

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby SnazzleFrazzle89 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:09 pm

Will re-submit a reply later.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:32 pm

NYstate wrote:How many biglaw jobs are there in Atlanta? It is a really small market. Do they hire more than 100 or 200 people total in biglaw? I don't know the firms to do the math, but it has to be small.

NALP hasn't updated this in a while, but there were 145 in firms of 251+ from the class 2009 and 98 from the class of 2010. Total firm jobs in those two years were 341 and 290. So not tiny but pretty small, especially considering the number of students from the surrounding area targeting it.

http://www.nalp.org/law_firm_jobs_in_2010

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby SnazzleFrazzle89 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:35 pm

From my source I mentioned earlier....

H & Y will obviously place in Atlanta if graduates of those schools choose to come here. Stanford is almost non-existent in this market and that's primarily due to self selection.

The true "HYS" rung of Atlanta is DUV (Duke, UVA, and Vanderbilt). However, they are followed VERY closely by UGA. If you finish top 15% from UGA, but can't land Big Law in Atlanta, you need to learn how to interview. Plain and simple.

I won't go too far into Emory, other than that it does not have the most favorable reputation in the city. The perception is that its graduates all want to go back up north and that those who do take a Big Law job in Atlanta will bolt ASAP.

As for other schools in the region (GA State, Mercer, UNC, UF, Alabama), you damn well better be #1 through #10 in your class (#, not %) to even get a look.

In short, there are four schools outside of H & Y that give you a decent to good shot at Atlanta. The first and foremost requirement are grades. After that, it's about ties to the region (contrary to what is said on here).

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby NYstate » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:14 pm

SnazzleFrazzle89 wrote:From my source I mentioned earlier....

H & Y will obviously place in Atlanta if graduates of those schools choose to come here. Stanford is almost non-existent in this market and that's primarily due to self selection.

The true "HYS" rung of Atlanta is DUV (Duke, UVA, and Vanderbilt). However, they are followed VERY closely by UGA. If you finish top 15% from UGA, but can't land Big Law in Atlanta, you need to learn how to interview. Plain and simple.

I won't go too far into Emory, other than that it does not have the most favorable reputation in the city. The perception is that its graduates all want to go back up north and that those who do take a Big Law job in Atlanta will bolt ASAP.

As for other schools in the region (GA State, Mercer, UNC, UF, Alabama), you damn well better be #1 through #10 in your class (#, not %) to even get a look.

In short, there are four schools outside of H & Y that give you a decent to good shot at Atlanta. The first and foremost requirement are grades. After that, it's about ties to the region (contrary to what is said on here).


I wouldn't consider the top 15% requirement to get a job from UGA a 'good to decent shot" at a job. The website says UGA has 210 people in a class - so that means about 30 people have any shot to get a biglaw job in Atlanta.

I don't know personally about the ties requirement in ATL. Given what I know about hiring generally, I would be surprised if anyone can get a job offer without some plausible reason as to why they want to work in Atlanta. Ties are just the easiest way to prove that you have a plausible reason. I can see that ties are secondary to grades, as in, if you don't have the grades you don't even get in the door for an interview.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby KatyMarie » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:40 am

Working with Big Law lawyers everyday...I'm understanding this whole TLS mantra of going to the best possible school more and more (if you want big law). If you're outside T14, with the exception of Vanderbilt in the South, you're going to have a hard time.

From what I understand at this point, schools like Alabama and UGA etc are fine, good schools even, as long as you aren't hedging your bets on big law.

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby SnazzleFrazzle89 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:08 pm

I have the same experience as you in regards to work as well. I won't dispute that you should go to the schools that place best in the region you're targeting.

However, if you can't get into a T14 and want Atlanta, UGA is your next best bet. When it comes to business, law, and politics, UGA is a heavy hitter. The alumni of UGA Law are very protective of their own and will fight tooth and nail to take care of the top 15% from UGA Law.

With that said, your absolute best bets for Atlanta are Vanderbilt, Duke, and UVA. Obviously, Harvard and Yale will get you here as well, but you will need to explain why you want to be here if you're not from here.

We're still a wary people down here. We feel that many of our universities unfairly get a bad reputation and that people still make too broad of assumptions about southerners. 9 times out of 10 a native southerner from a T14 will get the nod for a job over a non native from a T14 that just wants to come down here for a change of pace.

Atlanta is our New York. To the natives go the spoils and it's because of our protective nature. I don't care what TLS wisdom says. From the source to everyone's ears: Ties are VERY important for this region (ESPECIALLY at K&S and A+B)

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Re: University of Alabama at #21...someone explain...

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:23 pm

SnazzleFrazzle89 wrote:I don't care what TLS wisdom says. From the source to everyone's ears: Ties are VERY important for this region (ESPECIALLY at K&S and A+B)

I'm not sure what you think TLS wisdom on this is, but what you said is exactly in line with what most people on TLS have been saying for years.




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