Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

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Fordham w/$$ or Georgetown sticker?

Georgetown sticker
57
68%
Fordham w/$$
27
32%
 
Total votes: 84

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:25 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
john1990 wrote:You need to stop your crying.

The LSAT is the best judge for law school success and the GPA is a great figure too. If he can't get any money that means his numbers are bad and the school was a reach. OP what are your numbers? I would not recommend taking on $135,000 in debt while holding some of the worst numbers at the school in a bad market. I would not recommend GULC at sticker for anyone, even if their bad numbers are the result of bad chance. I also would not recommend crying about someone voicing a different opinion.

He will likely be bottom of the class GULC or median at Fordham. That is what the schools are telling him with their offers. If GULC was taking care of 99% of there class like they should be I would say GULC but it isn't the ticket it used to be


No.


But please don't stop, it's wayyy too entertaining.

hashashin
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby hashashin » Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:33 pm

BigZuck wrote:Numerous people who know what they are talking about and have thousands of posts disagree with you and you still sit here and try to argue with them?

I think your trolling has run its course, 7 pages of this nonsense is more than enough.

For future 0Ls reading this, here are the key points:
1. Fordham and Georgetown are classic trap schools that should only be attended with a steep discount. What does that mean? Probably close to a full ride at Fordham and at least 90K at Georgetown.
2. If you have to, retake the LSAT until you get into a sensible school at a sensible price.


I realize that the designation above may just be a result of your frustration with the OP, but if not, then can you really justify painting Georgetown with the same "trap school" brush as Fordham?

While I don't believe that sticker debt for an "unhooked" candidate (non-URM, non-IP) is justifiable in the lower T14, I do believe that, if you are willing to justify it for DNC, then you should probably do so for GULC as well. You really do have to compare GULC with its traditional peers with the understanding the Georgetown is in fact a HEAVILY PI-Oriented school; the relevant comparison, therefore, should take the school-funded jobs ENTIRELY out of the equation and simply compare biglaw + FedClerk + FT JDA + FT JD-Required jobs. Doing so still demonstrates a gap betwen GULC and DNC, but it is certainly not cavernous enough to justify sticker debt at the latter and not justify it at the former. At any rate, the employment stats DO NOT suggest that sticker at DNC would be dandy but GULC would require a 90,000 dollar scholarship. Copying and pasting from a previous thread:
First of all, to recap, I agree with you about bottom of the barrel outcomes; they certainly have been worse at GULC than DNC.

I also agree that, in order to give a clearer and fairer picture of GULC versus DNC w.r.t decent outcomes, we should just consider removing the school-funded jobs altogether from GULC's FTLT rate for both Bar Passage required and JDA jobs. Doing so gives us the following for the class of 2012:

GULC (73.3-6.5 (for school-funded positions) + (14.4 JD Adv FTLT - 3% School funded)) = 78%.

The corresponding % for Cornell and NU is 85% each.

Obviously, there is a significant (though not game-changingly massive) difference here ( - 7%, owing to GULC's unwieldy class size) that 0Ls will have to perform their own risk assessment on. But, I believe that the numbers ABOVE are the most accurate indicators of GULC v. DNC's placement power, NOT the BigLaw + FedClerk comparison because you HAVE TO account for GULC's PI and Gov emphasis when considering its placement power.


It is by no means the case that biglaw is foreclosed to kids at GULC's median; why should it be, when GULC's student quality is consistently higher than Cornell's and Berk's and basically identical to UVA/Michigan? There are people here in the bottom 40% getting biglaw from OCI. This is NOT the case for great schools that sit right on the cusp of the T14, e.g. Vandy and UT, so claiming that, somehow, GULC and those schools are peers is just basically untrue.

Also, if you are going to subtract part-time salary outcomes from Georgetown's, then you have to subtract the part-time students from the TOTAL as well, since those students would likely not have sought biglaw in the first place (if 20% of GULC is part time, then their 40% biglaw rate would comprise 50% of the full-time class).

I think that it's perfectly fine to discourage sticker debt at Georgetown, but I think we should be fucking realistic about the relative merits of the school rather than paint Georgetown and FORDHAM or GW with the same brush.

BigZuck
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby BigZuck » Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:44 pm

1. I think GULC is a trap school because while its placement is good, it generally isn't good enough to justify the cost. It might be the best trap around, but it's still a trap.
2. I think there is definitely a gap between DCN and GULC.
3. I personally probably would not pay sticker for anything outside of the T6. And if I was facing sticker at CCN but a scholarship at the lower T14, I would probably take the lower T14. I'm pretty conservative with that kind of stuff though, much moreso than most probably.

hashashin
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby hashashin » Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:46 pm

BigZuck wrote:1. I think GULC is a trap school because while its placement is good, it generally isn't good enough to justify the cost. It might be the best trap around, but it's still a trap.
2. I think there is definitely a gap between DCN and GULC.
3. I personally probably would not pay sticker for anything outside of the T6. And if I was facing sticker at CCN but a scholarship at the lower T14, I would probably take the lower T14. I'm pretty conservative with that kind of stuff though, much moreso than most probably.


God, why do you have to be, like, so...fair-minded?

Can't even assail that...

hashashin
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby hashashin » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:12 pm

Well, I guess I'd just add a few things: GULC does seem to have begun revamping its scholarship policy; this is anecdotal, but I don't know very many people from my section who are going here on sticker; some combination of merit and need-based aid seems to be the norm. Last year, I actually received MORE MONEY from GULC than I did from Cornell and Duke, which may bode even better for people applying this cycle. Also, class size for the class of 2017 is supposed to be significantly reduced, which may finally course-correct for market shifts and close whatever gap currently exists between G and DNC. Finally, the data I've seen for the class of 2013's OCI numbers indicate that they were FAR HIGHER (like, higher than 50%) than they were for the class of 2012, so whatever's happening, the overall trend is positive. Anyway, good luck to the OP.

20141023
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby 20141023 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:13 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby BigZuck » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:18 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
hashashin wrote:It is by no means the case that biglaw is foreclosed to kids at GULC's median; why should it be, when GULC's student quality is consistently higher than Cornell's and Berk's and basically identical to UVA/Michigan? There are people here in the bottom 40% getting biglaw from OCI. This is NOT the case for great schools that sit right on the cusp of the T14, e.g. Vandy and UT, so claiming that, somehow, GULC and those schools are peers is just basically untrue.

I think there is a general consensus among TLSers that, based on the employment data we now have, GULC isn't a peer school of institutions like Vandy and UT; however, it is also not on the same level as the rest of the T14 - it is almost in limbo between the T14 and the rest of the law schools out there.

In reality, UMich is the T14 which most closely resembles GULC in terms of employment outcomes. I think that UMich's reputation is the only thing helping it stay in the middle of the pack instead of falling to the bottom of the T14 with GULC.


Yeah, as much as I enjoy ripping on Michigan and GULC those schools are clearly a cut above the UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC subset in terms of placement

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john1990
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby john1990 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:23 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
john1990 wrote:Final comment - 17 people in the poll agreed with me

No... 17 of the people in the poll thought it would be better to go to law school with $$ rather than law school at sticker. Nobody but you suggested that the OP will do well at Fordham but do poorly at Georgetown. The OP will likely end up at median at either school, but median at Georgetown offers one more options than median at Fordham; however, it is risky business either way because on the one hand you're paying full price for a better chance at decent employment, whereas on the other hand you're paying a discounted price for reduced employment prospects.

Nice try, though. :lol:


This is the most retarded thinking i have ever heard. How can you believe that GULC isn't more competitive than Fordham. Whats next Harvard isn't more competitive than GULC

Also why would you bring this back up after I made closing comments. Is it possible to wrap it up

giantsfan564789
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby giantsfan564789 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:33 pm

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Last edited by giantsfan564789 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

giantsfan564789
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby giantsfan564789 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:35 pm

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Last edited by giantsfan564789 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

20141023
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby 20141023 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:35 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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john1990
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby john1990 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:42 pm

giantsfan564789 wrote:
john1990 wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
john1990 wrote:Final comment - 17 people in the poll agreed with me

No... 17 of the people in the poll thought it would be better to go to law school with $$ rather than law school at sticker. Nobody but you suggested that the OP will do well at Fordham but do poorly at Georgetown. The OP will likely end up at median at either school, but median at Georgetown offers one more options than median at Fordham; however, it is risky business either way because on the one hand you're paying full price for a better chance at decent employment, whereas on the other hand you're paying a discounted price for reduced employment prospects.

Nice try, though. :lol:


This is the most retarded thinking i have ever heard. How can you believe that GULC isn't more competitive than Fordham. Whats next Harvard isn't more competitive than GULC

Also why would you bring this back up after I made closing comments. Is it possible to wrap it up



Well, actually, GULC very well may be more competitive than Harvard because Harvard is on a P/F grading system while GULC is not.

Using this reasoning Fordham is more competitive than Harvard

giantsfan564789
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby giantsfan564789 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:48 pm

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Last edited by giantsfan564789 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:55 pm

john1990 wrote:
giantsfan564789 wrote:
john1990 wrote:
This is the most retarded thinking i have ever heard. How can you believe that GULC isn't more competitive than Fordham. Whats next Harvard isn't more competitive than GULC

Also why would you bring this back up after I made closing comments. Is it possible to wrap it up



Well, actually, GULC very well may be more competitive than Harvard because Harvard is on a P/F grading system while GULC is not.

Using this reasoning Fordham is more competitive than Harvard


Your trolling is quickly becoming unfunny

If you are actually serious, may god have mercy on your soul

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:56 pm

BigZuck wrote:1. I think GULC is a trap school because while its placement is good, it generally isn't good enough to justify the cost. It might be the best trap around, but it's still a trap.
2. I think there is definitely a gap between DCN and GULC.
3. I personally probably would not pay sticker for anything outside of the T6. And if I was facing sticker at CCN but a scholarship at the lower T14, I would probably take the lower T14. I'm pretty conservative with that kind of stuff though, much moreso than most probably.


This is TCR and should definitively conclude this clusterfuck of a thread

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john1990
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby john1990 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:25 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
john1990 wrote:
giantsfan564789 wrote:
john1990 wrote:
This is the most retarded thinking i have ever heard. How can you believe that GULC isn't more competitive than Fordham. Whats next Harvard isn't more competitive than GULC

Also why would you bring this back up after I made closing comments. Is it possible to wrap it up



Well, actually, GULC very well may be more competitive than Harvard because Harvard is on a P/F grading system while GULC is not.

Using this reasoning Fordham is more competitive than Harvard


Your trolling is quickly becoming unfunny

If you are actually serious, may god have mercy on your soul


lol if fordham isnt more competitive than gulc and gulc isnt more competitive than harvard. Then fordham isnt more competitive than harvard. Now consider that you say that gulc is less competitive than harvard. Can you possibly imagine
Last edited by john1990 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

giantsfan564789
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby giantsfan564789 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:30 pm

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Last edited by giantsfan564789 on Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby BmoreOrLess » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:29 pm

hashashin wrote:Well, I guess I'd just add a few things: GULC does seem to have begun revamping its scholarship policy; this is anecdotal, but I don't know very many people from my section who are going here on sticker; some combination of merit and need-based aid seems to be the norm. Last year, I actually received MORE MONEY from GULC than I did from Cornell and Duke, which may bode even better for people applying this cycle.


It's going to be interesting to see what they do with scholarships/financial aid this year. It seems like they are accepting a lot of splitters at median LSAT (ie 168 LSAT, < 25th GPA), and you would think they're trying to nab some sticker paying dreamers with that. I'm in that boat and GULC is my top choice due to location, but I won't hesitate to go to GW with a bunch of money, UVA/NW, or not go if I'm staring at sticker.

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nickb285
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby nickb285 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:45 pm

hashashin wrote:Well, I guess I'd just add a few things: GULC does seem to have begun revamping its scholarship policy; this is anecdotal, but I don't know very many people from my section who are going here on sticker; some combination of merit and need-based aid seems to be the norm. Last year, I actually received MORE MONEY from GULC than I did from Cornell and Duke, which may bode even better for people applying this cycle. Also, class size for the class of 2017 is supposed to be significantly reduced, which may finally course-correct for market shifts and close whatever gap currently exists between G and DNC. Finally, the data I've seen for the class of 2013's OCI numbers indicate that they were FAR HIGHER (like, higher than 50%) than they were for the class of 2012, so whatever's happening, the overall trend is positive. Anyway, good luck to the OP.


Backing this up with my own anecdote--GULC offered me $20k/year, off the waitlist, in July, after I asked for it, for my 169 LSAT and 3.17 GPA. I suspect they were attempting to buy enough 169s to maintain the previous year's median at that point, and I seriously doubt they'd have offered anything if I hadn't asked, but it's worth a shot--I had no other acceptances in the T14, and was set to go with a conditional partial scholarship at a lower T1 regional in my home state. GULC definitely has its issues, but the TLS conventional wisdom that GULC is stingy may be somewhat out of date, and with money (depending on your goals, resources, etc.) it can still be a very good option.

BigZuck
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby BigZuck » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:55 pm

nickb285 wrote:
hashashin wrote:Well, I guess I'd just add a few things: GULC does seem to have begun revamping its scholarship policy; this is anecdotal, but I don't know very many people from my section who are going here on sticker; some combination of merit and need-based aid seems to be the norm. Last year, I actually received MORE MONEY from GULC than I did from Cornell and Duke, which may bode even better for people applying this cycle. Also, class size for the class of 2017 is supposed to be significantly reduced, which may finally course-correct for market shifts and close whatever gap currently exists between G and DNC. Finally, the data I've seen for the class of 2013's OCI numbers indicate that they were FAR HIGHER (like, higher than 50%) than they were for the class of 2012, so whatever's happening, the overall trend is positive. Anyway, good luck to the OP.


Backing this up with my own anecdote--GULC offered me $20k/year, off the waitlist, in July, after I asked for it, for my 169 LSAT and 3.17 GPA. I suspect they were attempting to buy enough 169s to maintain the previous year's median at that point, and I seriously doubt they'd have offered anything if I hadn't asked, but it's worth a shot--I had no other acceptances in the T14, and was set to go with a conditional partial scholarship at a lower T1 regional in my home state. GULC definitely has its issues, but the TLS conventional wisdom that GULC is stingy may be somewhat out of date, and with money (depending on your goals, resources, etc.) it can still be a very good option.


You're the poster I always think of when I say GULC can make sense for some people. I definitely thought it was the right call for you.

I had the same LSAT and an above median GPA and was accepted outright and got nothing. And I got 90K from schools like Duke and Cornell. I don't know what to make of their scholarship strategy, but last year it seemed wonky at best (with the multiple "tell us why you deserve money" emails and whatnot). Maybe they have that all sorted out this time around though.

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nickb285
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Re: Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown

Postby nickb285 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:43 pm

BigZuck wrote:You're the poster I always think of when I say GULC can make sense for some people. I definitely thought it was the right call for you.

I had the same LSAT and an above median GPA and was accepted outright and got nothing. And I got 90K from schools like Duke and Cornell. I don't know what to make of their scholarship strategy, but last year it seemed wonky at best (with the multiple "tell us why you deserve money" emails and whatnot). Maybe they have that all sorted out this time around though.


It was a weird cycle. Maybe they figured someone with a high LSAT and a high GPA would be too expensive to lure away from places like Duke and Cornell. Could have been a geographic diversity thing too, maybe; that sort of thing isn't really that important, but maybe the combination of the two and the late date made them willing to offer. GULC's a bit schizophrenic seems like, but it doesn't hurt to ask.




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