Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown Forum

[giantsfan564789]

.

[20141023]

.

[twenty]

Isn't Georgetown potentially free if you do PI though? Not saying OP even wants or could do PI, but why would OP need biglaw at GULC?

OP wants a job that pays 100k+. I have yet to see any (realistic) PI job that pays its entry-level attorneys 100k+.

[timbs4339]

OP: I'm a lawyer. Graduated a couple years ago from one of CCN. Struck out at OCI and spent two years looking for that "100K+(nonbiglaw) jerb". It's not there. That's just not how it works.

Given that you are a lawyer and I am a 0L I am sure you know more than me. However, I have heard that there are some small firms that are prestigious and pay 100k+ salaries. So, when you look at a school like GULC having X percent at large firms, would you disagree that we can assume that at least some of the small firms are paying very well (even if most are not)?

Anyone have any opinions on this?

What I would assume, (based on what I actually know), is that it is harder to go to a "boutique firm" than it is to go to the average Vault 100 firm. Susman Godfrey, Kellogg Huber, Bartlit Beck, would not show up in any list of the top 100 law firms by headcount but have their their pick of any law student in the country. An extremely prestigious federal appellate clerkship is a prerequisite. There are many reasons for this, which I won't bore you with.

If you are talking about midlaw, then you have to distinguish between regional biglaw and actual midlaw. There are some firms that might pay, say, 105K in Jacksonville that are considered Jacksonville biglaw, and there are some that might pay 105K in NYC, which would be NYC midlaw. Of the latter, as I said before, I looked for two years for these jobs and didn't find a single one. I'm not saying they aren't out there, but they are like unicorns.

Another class of jobs that pay just over 100K are jobs with federal government regulators, like DOJ, OCC. But if you've been following the news, these places aren't hiring law students in very great numbers, and as a result are generally more competitive than 160K biglaw, again for various reasons I won't bore you with. I've also heard that federal public defender jobs approach salary parity with the DOJ, but jobs in the desirable offices are again, harder to get than biglaw.

[linkx13]

Both choices are bad, but I'd personally take GULC. Either one, you're definitely going to need biglaw, and while neither one gives you anything close to a "sure thing" in that regard, GULC is more likely to get you biglaw than Fordham is.

You should almost definitely retake, though. And that's without even knowing what your LSAT score is, or how many times you've taken it (hint hint.)

Isn't Georgetown potentially free if you do PI though? Not saying OP even wants or could do PI, but why would OP need biglaw at GULC?

As for the PI route, you are technically correct. However, you're talking about 11.20% of GULC's graduating class, and that isn't even considering those who are only on 1-year fellowships in those positions that will not last the full 10 years needed to take advantage of the LRAP program.

(Even with biglaw or other types of employment someone would still be eligible for IBR or PAYE, but that basically means that you are unable to pay off the loans yourself so the government is going to help you.)

Wouldn't govenment jobs and clerkships be included in the PI outcome? I'm assuming the poster meant to take advantage of the LRAP.

[alexrodriguez]

I heard Fordham is in a shitty neighborhood.

is this true?

but yea... sometimes it's best to ask what Harvey Specter would do

[jbagelboy]

I heard Fordham is in a shitty neighborhood.

is this true?

but yea... sometimes it's best to ask what Harvey Specter would do

Not at all. Fordham is by central park west and Lincoln Center. In the 70s maybe Hells Kitchen was a dump but now its rent prices are on par with the rest of the west side - in other words, ridiculous.

I think its a great location in the city because you can hop on the A/C or 1 at columbus circle and get anywhere downtown or uptown. Would shave 10-15 min off the commute I make from morningside to midtown, les or the west village.

Good brunch spots by Fordham too.

[In Good Faith]

Hypothetically speaking if one received a full scholarship to Fordham, would it be worthwhile for NY Law?

[giantsfan564789]

I heard Fordham is in a shitty neighborhood.

is this true?

but yea... sometimes it's best to ask what Harvey Specter would do

You probably heard that because Fordham undergrad is in the Bronx. Fordham undergrad is considered to be in a bad neighborhood. Many people are unaware that Fordham law is in a completely separate, and much nicer, location.

[20141023]

.

[alexrodriguez]

Hypothetically speaking if one received a full scholarship to Fordham, would it be worthwhile for NY Law?

That is a personal decision. I personally wouldn't do it because you're still paying to go even if tuition is free (in terms of time and opportunity cost... not to mention the fact that you'd be living in one of the most expensive parts of the country for 3 years). Only 45.5% of Fordham's 2012 graduates landed a full-time, long-term position with a law firm, so you're talking about less than a coin-toss chance.

Law Firms (Solo): 0.0% (0/486)
Law Firms (2-10 Attorneys): 5.8% (28/486)
Law Firms (11-25 Attorneys): 2.1% (10/486)
Law Firms (26-50 Attorneys): 3.1% (15/486)
Law Firms (51-100 Attorneys): 3.7% (18/486)
Law Firms (101-250 Attorneys): 4.7% (23/486)
Law Firms (251-500 Attorneys): 5.6% (27/486)
Law Firms: (501+ Attorneys): 20.2% (98/486)
Law Firms (Size Unknown): 0.4% (2/486)
Business & Industry: 9.9% (48/486)
Government: 7.8% (38/486)
Public Interest: 3.1% (15/486)
Clerkships (Federal): 2.9% (14/486)
Clerkships (State & Local): 2.7% (13/486)
Clerkships (Other): 0.0% (0/486)
Academia: 0.2% (1/486)

yea, but Michael Clayton went to Fordham

[In Good Faith]

Hypothetically speaking if one received a full scholarship to Fordham, would it be worthwhile for NY Law?

That is a personal decision. I personally wouldn't do it because you're still paying to go even if tuition is free (in terms of time and opportunity cost... not to mention the fact that you'd be living in one of the most expensive parts of the country for 3 years). Only 45.5% of Fordham's 2012 graduates landed a full-time, long-term position with a law firm, so you're talking about less than a coin-toss chance.

Law Firms (Solo): 0.0% (0/486)
Law Firms (2-10 Attorneys): 5.8% (28/486)
Law Firms (11-25 Attorneys): 2.1% (10/486)
Law Firms (26-50 Attorneys): 3.1% (15/486)
Law Firms (51-100 Attorneys): 3.7% (18/486)
Law Firms (101-250 Attorneys): 4.7% (23/486)
Law Firms (251-500 Attorneys): 5.6% (27/486)
Law Firms: (501+ Attorneys): 20.2% (98/486)
Law Firms (Size Unknown): 0.4% (2/486)
Business & Industry: 9.9% (48/486)
Government: 7.8% (38/486)
Public Interest: 3.1% (15/486)
Clerkships (Federal): 2.9% (14/486)
Clerkships (State & Local): 2.7% (13/486)
Clerkships (Other): 0.0% (0/486)
Academia: 0.2% (1/486)

Ok i already live in NYC so the living arrangements would be manageable. However the jobs prospects sound daunting. Thanks for the info though.

[giantsfan564789]

.

[BigZuck]

Hypothetically speaking if one received a full scholarship to Fordham, would it be worthwhile for NY Law?

That is a personal decision. I personally wouldn't do it because you're still paying to go even if tuition is free (in terms of time and opportunity cost... not to mention the fact that you'd be living in one of the most expensive parts of the country for 3 years). Only 45.5% of Fordham's 2012 graduates landed a full-time, long-term position with a law firm, so you're talking about less than a coin-toss chance.

Law Firms (Solo): 0.0% (0/486)
Law Firms (2-10 Attorneys): 5.8% (28/486)
Law Firms (11-25 Attorneys): 2.1% (10/486)
Law Firms (26-50 Attorneys): 3.1% (15/486)
Law Firms (51-100 Attorneys): 3.7% (18/486)
Law Firms (101-250 Attorneys): 4.7% (23/486)
Law Firms (251-500 Attorneys): 5.6% (27/486)
Law Firms: (501+ Attorneys): 20.2% (98/486)
Law Firms (Size Unknown): 0.4% (2/486)
Business & Industry: 9.9% (48/486)
Government: 7.8% (38/486)
Public Interest: 3.1% (15/486)
Clerkships (Federal): 2.9% (14/486)
Clerkships (State & Local): 2.7% (13/486)
Clerkships (Other): 0.0% (0/486)
Academia: 0.2% (1/486)

To be fair, that 45.5% you're talking about refers to "upon graduation." While that is the stat that us news uses, most sources are more concerned with the 9 months after graduation stats. That gives fordham somewhere between 60 and 65 percent. Not great, but a lot better than 45.

(The number I'm referring to can be found on law school transparency)

(with a law firm)

[Yanky91]

I was accepted with a half tuition scholarship to Fordham, and was also accepted to Georgetown at sticker. If those were your only 2 options, which would you choose.

All responses greatly appreciated, thanks!

I would go to some other tier 1 school on a full scholarship. If you have the numbers to get into those schools, then you can get money at other tier 1 schools IMO. I certainly would not pay sticker for Georgetown. Their employment numbers are worse than GW's..... I would sooner go to GW with a scholly than Georgetown with nothing.

[giantsfan564789]

.

[giantsfan564789]

.

[Fiero85]

I was accepted with a half tuition scholarship to Fordham, and was also accepted to Georgetown at sticker. If those were your only 2 options, which would you choose.

All responses greatly appreciated, thanks!

I would go to some other tier 1 school on a full scholarship. If you have the numbers to get into those schools, then you can get money at other tier 1 schools IMO. I certainly would not pay sticker for Georgetown. Their employment numbers are worse than GW's..... I would sooner go to GW with a scholly than Georgetown with nothing.

You might be right about gw vs GULC overall employment stats. However, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure even if more gw grads obtain employment that one would consider legitimate, the quality of jobs that GULC grads get is just higher overall.

Yeah, GULC job opportunites are superior to GW. And GW cheats hardcore on the % employed metric anyway. They hire their own grads in significant numbers. Not sure how many GULC hires though.

[Fiero85]

(not avocating G'TTTown at sticker regardless)

[Nova]

I would go to some other tier 1 school on a full scholarship. If you have the numbers to get into those schools, then you can get money at other tier 1 schools IMO. I certainly would not pay sticker for Georgetown. Their employment numbers are worse than GW's..... I would sooner go to GW with a scholly than Georgetown with nothing.

naaa

•81% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs. 20.7% of these jobs were school-funded jobs

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=gw&show=chars

[giantsfan564789]

.

[Yanky91]

I would go to some other tier 1 school on a full scholarship. If you have the numbers to get into those schools, then you can get money at other tier 1 schools IMO. I certainly would not pay sticker for Georgetown. Their employment numbers are worse than GW's..... I would sooner go to GW with a scholly than Georgetown with nothing.

naaa

•81% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs. 20.7% of these jobs were school-funded jobs

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=gw&show=chars

From the website you sent me it says that "73.3% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs" from Georgetown. From that same website it says "81% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs" from GW. If you could get a scholarship to GW, I think it's a better choice than sticker at Georgetown. On top of that, according to US News only 71% of graduates were employed 9 months after graduating (graduating class of 2011) whereas for GW it was 88%. For 200K in debt... it's not worth it IMHO. Georgetown is stingy with money. They almost never give scholarships. GW, although very expensive, gives a lot of scholarship $$$ to those who are deserving.

[jbagelboy]

I would go to some other tier 1 school on a full scholarship. If you have the numbers to get into those schools, then you can get money at other tier 1 schools IMO. I certainly would not pay sticker for Georgetown. Their employment numbers are worse than GW's..... I would sooner go to GW with a scholly than Georgetown with nothing.

naaa

•81% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs. 20.7% of these jobs were school-funded jobs

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=gw&show=chars

From the website you sent me it says that "73.3% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs" from Georgetown. From that same website it says "81% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs" from GW. If you could get a scholarship to GW, I think it's a better choice than sticker at Georgetown. On top of that, according to US News only 71% of graduates were employed 9 months after graduating (graduating class of 2011) whereas for GW it was 88%. For 200K in debt... it's not worth it IMHO. Georgetown is stingy with money. They almost never give scholarships. GW, although very expensive, gives a lot of scholarship $$$ to those who are deserving.

Straw-manning us here, bro. No one is saying Georgetown at sticker is sound. Its just not accurate to say GW has better elite employment numbers than GULC. The two are not mutually exclusive propositions, since GW at sticker sucks shit too.

[Yanky91]

I was accepted with a half tuition scholarship to Fordham, and was also accepted to Georgetown at sticker. If those were your only 2 options, which would you choose.

All responses greatly appreciated, thanks!

I would go to some other tier 1 school on a full scholarship. If you have the numbers to get into those schools, then you can get money at other tier 1 schools IMO. I certainly would not pay sticker for Georgetown. Their employment numbers are worse than GW's..... I would sooner go to GW with a scholly than Georgetown with nothing.

You might be right about gw vs GULC overall employment stats. However, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure even if more gw grads obtain employment that one would consider legitimate, the quality of jobs that employed GULC grads get is just higher overall.

(Side note: what is your source for this info.?)

That quality of a job is subjective. For instance, some might prefer big law, working long tedious hours, while others might prefer government, and being in court a lot. So, I don't know if the quality of jobs you can get are automatically better than the quality you can get from GW. More Georgetown grads get employed in firms that consist of 500+ attorneys, but some people don't care/don't want go the biglaw route. Even still, out of GW about 40% of grads get employed at those big firms. So you still have a good shot at making big bucks.... if that is what your goal is. I just think it's crazy to go to Georgetown and pay sticker if you can get $$$ from other great schools like Vanderbilt, GW, etc.. My source is US news and LSATscorereports.

[giantsfan564789]

.