Fordham w/ $$ or Georgetown Forum

[Yanky91]

I would go to some other tier 1 school on a full scholarship. If you have the numbers to get into those schools, then you can get money at other tier 1 schools IMO. I certainly would not pay sticker for Georgetown. Their employment numbers are worse than GW's..... I would sooner go to GW with a scholly than Georgetown with nothing.

naaa

•81% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs. 20.7% of these jobs were school-funded jobs

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=gw&show=chars

From the website you sent me it says that "73.3% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs" from Georgetown. From that same website it says "81% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs" from GW. If you could get a scholarship to GW, I think it's a better choice than sticker at Georgetown. On top of that, according to US News only 71% of graduates were employed 9 months after graduating (graduating class of 2011) whereas for GW it was 88%. For 200K in debt... it's not worth it IMHO. Georgetown is stingy with money. They almost never give scholarships. GW, although very expensive, gives a lot of scholarship $$$ to those who are deserving.

Straw-manning us here, bro. No one is saying Georgetown at sticker is sound. Its just not accurate to say GW has better elite employment numbers than GULC. The two are not mutually exclusive propositions, since GW at sticker sucks shit too.

I never said that. I just said worse employment numbers. You took that to mean GW gets its grads more "elite employment", but that is not what I said, nor is it what I meant. All I am saying is more people get employed out of GW. All this stuff about quality of jobs, and elite employment, is kind of subjective, and depends on the individual applying and what he values most. The bottom line is that more grads end up with full time legal jobs out of GW than out of Georgetown. Now imagine you are the sap that ends up going to Georgetown and paying sticker price. You end up graduating in the bottom half of your class. Now you have 200K in debt and no job because you are part of that 27% from GULC who couldn't find employment 9 months after graduating..... that would suck pretty hard. I would prefer to go to the school that is more likely to get me a job is all I'm saying.

[Fiero85]

(not avocating G'TTTown at sticker regardless)

Since you are clearly someone who does not think very highly of GULC, I'd like your opinion on something. It seems that you and many others (somewhat seriously but somewhat jokingly) refer to GULC as TTT. In your opinion, coa aside, is there a single school that is preferable to attend over GULC that is not in the t14. If GULC is the best school one can go to (other than other t14s) why would you call it TTT?

First off, yes, I used the term somewhat jokingly, as I imagine some others did before me. Some people really like trolling GULC hard for fun, and some people are more serious. As for me, I currently attend a Jesuit UG institution with a less prestegious reputation than GTown, and I respect the university as a whole quite a bit. But that is neither here nor there.

The professional degree programs we are discussing are a means to an end: employment. Employment is the end result that solely matters. Looking at the employment data we have available (limited and imperfect as always) I think the consensus that GULC is inferior to Cornell and the rest of the T14 is fair. I also think the data suggests that, as far as I know, GULC is slightly superior in employment to Texas or Vandy (its closest peers) and pretty obviously superior to UCLA/USC/WUSTL and so fourth.

However, your suggestion to compare schools "COA aside" seems silly to me. In what world is cost not a factor? Even the rich should consider cost vs. value. And that is where GULC starts to falter. Compared to other 13-20 schools: they are stingy with scholarships, they have the highest COL, and they have by far the largest class size (aka people you compete with for class rank and jobs). As a bonus for today's GULC students, the legal market in the DC area is hurting bad. Sweet.

These factors culminate to the current situation: where many, many people would be better off, if placed in the scenario you provided (acceptances at GULC and lower only) to look to GULC's peers instead. Texas and Vandy could rather easily be a better employment-to-cost move. Same applies to some lower schools at deep discount. This obviously depends on personal goals and risk aversion, but I would suggest young people in the USA on average are not debt averse enough (having watched too many Disney movies and inspirational YouTube videos).

My point is that GULC is stuck in an unfortunate rutt right now. Almost every school immediately surrounding it provides better value to cost. Hence, the stomping on "GTTTown" on this site rolls on.

[Fiero85]

(not avocating G'TTTown at sticker regardless)

Since you are clearly someone who does not think very highly of GULC, I'd like your opinion on something. It seems that you and many others (somewhat seriously but somewhat jokingly) refer to GULC as TTT. In your opinion, coa aside, is there a single school that is preferable to attend over GULC that is not in the t14. If GULC is the best school one can go to (other than other t14s) why would you call it TTT?

By the way, I'm not saying this to be argumentative. If this non t14 but better than GULC school exists, I will send out my application right now (and likely get in).

No offense taken, I am operating under the assumption that this is a sincere discussion. I sure hope so, because I just wrote a long ass reply to the question above haha sorry.

In short: I think people admitted to GULC but not Cornell and higher should strongly consider the schools #15 and below and compare the cost to what they want, along with the worst possible outcome they could stand.

[Fiero85]

I never said that. I just said worse employment numbers. You took that to mean GW gets its grads more "elite employment", but that is not what I said, nor is it what I meant. All I am saying is more people get employed out of GW. All this stuff about quality of jobs, and elite employment, is kind of subjective, and depends on the individual applying and what he values most. The bottom line is that more grads end up with full time legal jobs out of GW than out of Georgetown. Now imagine you are the sap that ends up going to Georgetown and paying sticker price. You end up graduating in the bottom half of your class. Now you have 200K in debt and no job because you are part of that 27% from GULC who couldn't find employment 9 months after graduating..... that would suck pretty hard. I would prefer to go to the school that is more likely to get me a job is all I'm saying.

You are ignoring the already made point that GW essentially lies about their employment percentage by giving their grads temp jobs in material amounts. We all agree that when you consider "striking out" completely, as with other scenarios as well, it is better to have more scholarship/less debt. But GW hardly is a safe haven. Their true employment numbers are hard to procure but they are likely worse than GULC. How much one pays for those prospects is important, but your argument that GW protects you from being completely jobless, more so than GULC, is faulty. Both are risky.

(edited for typo)

[timbs4339]

Protip: That 20% of students at GW making 15/hr and waking up each day hoping the dean doesn't try to cut it to 10/hr again to "incentivize" them to find a job is counted among the underemployed. The fact that they count them within the 81% FT should tell you a great deal about the school.

[Yanky91]

I never said that. I just said worse employment numbers. You took that to mean GW gets its grads more "elite employment", but that is not what I said, nor is it what I meant. All I am saying is more people get employed out of GW. All this stuff about quality of jobs, and elite employment, is kind of subjective, and depends on the individual applying and what he values most. The bottom line is that more grads end up with full time legal jobs out of GW than out of Georgetown. Now imagine you are the sap that ends up going to Georgetown and paying sticker price. You end up graduating in the bottom half of your class. Now you have 200K in debt and no job because you are part of that 27% from GULC who couldn't find employment 9 months after graduating..... that would suck pretty hard. I would prefer to go to the school that is more likely to get me a job is all I'm saying.

You are ignoring the already made point that GW essentially lies about their employment percentage by giving their grads temp jobs in material amounts. We all agree that when you consider "striking out" completely, as with other scenarios as well, it is better to have more scholarship/less debt. But GW hardly is a safe haven. Their true employment numbers are hard to procure but they are likely worse than GULC. How much one pays for those prospects is important, but your argument that GW protects you from being completely jobless, more so than GULC, is faulty. Both are risky.

(edited for typo)

Almost all law schools do what you are referring to. GW more so than most (about 20%). So, you can lop 20% off and you are looking at employment numbers close to Georgetown's (and that is before lopping the unknown % off of Georgetown's numbers). I never said GW protects you from anything. Of course there will be risk associated. Both are risky no doubt. However, from GULC you end up with a lot more debt, and a higher chance of being unemployed. I only used GW as an example. I am not saying GW is a "safe haven", or that it will "protect you from unemployment" or that it will give you a higher chance at getting an "elite job". I am simply comparing the costs/benefits of going to a place like GW with $$$ over going to Georgetown with nothing. You can replace GW with a number of tier 1 schools if you like. However, when you can go to a tier 1 school with a scholarship, I would take that over GULC. That is ALL I am saying. GEEEZ you guys have to stop with all the extrapolating.

[Yanky91]

Protip: That 20% of students at GW making 15/hr and waking up each day hoping the dean doesn't try to cut it to 10/hr again to "incentivize" them to find a job is counted among the underemployed. The fact that they count them within the 81% FT should tell you a great deal about the school.

Did you just pull this out of your ass? Even if this is true, I would rather be making 15/hr without a massive pile of debt on my back while I look for something better, than making nothing at all, and having to worry about my 200k+ in debt.

[Fiero85]

I never said that. I just said worse employment numbers. You took that to mean GW gets its grads more "elite employment", but that is not what I said, nor is it what I meant. All I am saying is more people get employed out of GW. All this stuff about quality of jobs, and elite employment, is kind of subjective, and depends on the individual applying and what he values most. The bottom line is that more grads end up with full time legal jobs out of GW than out of Georgetown. Now imagine you are the sap that ends up going to Georgetown and paying sticker price. You end up graduating in the bottom half of your class. Now you have 200K in debt and no job because you are part of that 27% from GULC who couldn't find employment 9 months after graduating..... that would suck pretty hard. I would prefer to go to the school that is more likely to get me a job is all I'm saying.

You are ignoring the already made point that GW essentially lies about their employment percentage by giving their grads temp jobs in material amounts. We all agree that when you consider "striking out" completely, as with other scenarios as well, it is better to have more scholarship/less debt. But GW hardly is a safe haven. Their true employment numbers are hard to procure but they are likely worse than GULC. How much one pays for those prospects is important, but your argument that GW protects you from being completely jobless, more so than GULC, is faulty. Both are risky.

(edited for typo)

Almost all law schools do what you are referring to. GW more so than most (about 20%). So, you can lop 20% off and you are looking at employment numbers close to Georgetown's (and that is before lopping the unknown % off of Georgetown's numbers). I never said GW protects you from anything. Of course there will be risk associated. Both are risky no doubt. However, from GULC you end up with a lot more debt, and a higher chance of being unemployed. I only used GW as an example. I am not saying GW is a "safe haven", or that it will "protect you from unemployment" or that it will give you a higher chance at getting an "elite job". I am simply comparing the costs/benefits of going to a place like GW with $$$ over going to Georgetown with nothing. You can replace GW with a number of tier 1 schools if you like. However, when you can go to a tier 1 school with a scholarship, I would take that over GULC. That is ALL I am saying. GEEEZ you guys have to stop with all the extrapolating.

I'm down with that. Just trying to point out that GW can be quite the trap school itself and uses questionable reporting practices. I'm totally on board with the school of thought that many non-T14 schools at discount offer better value with essentially the same risk for the bottom 20% of the class (aka "no JD relevant job for you"). Personal goals and risk aversion vary, but instead of taking sticker anywhere, I personally would back track one "tier" and take the scholly money. For instance: 172, 3.9 >>> take money at UVA or UChi rather than Harvard sticker. Just my strategy.

[Yanky91]

To put this into perspective, if GW offered me $120,000 to go there (which they do to people with LSAT's in the high 160s), no stip, and Georgetown offered me nothing, I would choose GW, and I think most rational people would as well. (those two schools being the only options in this scenario of course)

[Fiero85]

To put this into perspective, if GW offered me $120,000 to go there (which they do to people with LSAT's in the high 160s), no stip, and Georgetown offered me nothing, I would choose GW, and I think most rational people would as well. (those two schools being the only options in this scenario of course)

Yes, retaking and other schools ignored, that's the right call if you ask me. Most of TLS would agree.

[20141023]

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[Nova]

To put this into perspective, if GW offered me $120,000 to go there (which they do to people with LSAT's in the high 160s), no stip, and Georgetown offered me nothing, I would choose GW, and I think most rational people would as well. (those two schools being the only options in this scenario of course)

Yes, retaking and other schools ignored, that's the right call if you ask me. Most of TLS would agree.

word

[20141023]

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[crasscarter83]

I think the general consensus here is that if you don't get a top dollar scholarship in the top 8-14(16,17,18, etc.), retake. Even if you do, don't go unless it's under 10. Thus say goodbye to Fordham and GULC. Now, as far as 4-7 go, go if you get a reasonable amount of money. For HYS, all bets are off the table once you get in, go! In conclusion, therefore, retake.

[BigZuck]

I think the general consensus here is that if you don't get a top dollar scholarship in the top 8-14(16,17,18, etc.), retake. Even if you do, don't go unless it's under 10. Thus say goodbye to Fordham and GULC. Now, as far as 4-7 go, go if you get a reasonable amount of money. For HYS, all bets are off the table once you get in, go! In conclusion, therefore, retake.

I don't think that's the general consensus. I don't think TLS draws arbitrary lines as to what is worth it and what is not. At least, not those TLSers who know what they are talking about.

[giantsfan564789]

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[twenty]

I think the general consensus here is that if you don't get a top dollar scholarship in the top 8-14(16,17,18, etc.), retake. Even if you do, don't go unless it's under 10. Thus say goodbye to Fordham and GULC. Now, as far as 4-7 go, go if you get a reasonable amount of money. For HYS, all bets are off the table once you get in, go! In conclusion, therefore, retake.

I don't think that's the general consensus. I don't think TLS draws arbitrary lines as to what is worth it and what is not. At least, not those TLSers who know what they are talking about.

Yeah, anyone who decides UVA is in, but Duke, NU and Cornell are out, is dumb.

Also, the HYS = GOGOGOGO is silly, too.

[20141023]

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[giantsfan564789]

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[20141023]

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[twenty]

My argument works exactly as I think it does, and you just proved it for me. Suddenly you're starting to sound like you believe there's greater than a coin toss' chance, not less. I appreciate you bringing forward this data which further contributes to my point.

[giantsfan564789]

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[Fiero85]

My argument works exactly as I think it does, and you just proved it for me. Suddenly you're starting to sound like you believe there's greater than a coin toss' chance, not less. I appreciate you bringing forward this data which further contributes to my point.

You know what - since you're obviously incapable of understanding the points I'm making and the data I'm posting, I suggest that you go ahead and attend Fordham with some scholarships or GULC at sticker. After all, you have better than a coin-toss chance at your dream job, right?

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand you. I think if you still disagree with my prior point that stats like the 45.5% you posted are misleading you obviously don't understand my points.

The fact that you can switch from saying less than a coin toss to more than a coin toss so quickly as though you're still saying the same thing shows your unwillingness to admit when you might have said something misleading...

Even if you are right, 63% chance blows dude. Not much of a victory here. I know TLS can be overly pessimistic at times, but it is one of the few sources that consistently helps balance out the misinformed boomer optimism about the legal field. People on TLS being "misleadingly" negative would probably be for the better, I say.

[giantsfan564789]

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[20141023]

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