Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

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Br3v
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby Br3v » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:11 pm

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Noodlebrain
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby Noodlebrain » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:54 pm

twentypercentmore wrote: Also, Stanford for 3rd. :\


Where is this coming from?

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twenty
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby twenty » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:33 am

Noodlebrain wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote: Also, Stanford for 3rd. :\


Where is this coming from?


Speculation entirely. Harvard came out of the gate swinging with major acceptances in late November, while Stanford waited until February to start calling people. That seemed to cost them in the long run, since Stanford's ability to "pick off" H acceptances seemed to backfire on them in April, which is likely why they had applicants that hadn't heard back until May. They were pulling multiple people off the waitlist as late as September. While I would personally chose Stanford over Harvard for financial reasons, it seems the majority of double admits decided to go to the school they'd seen during ASW rather than the school that now needed them a few weeks before classes started.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:49 am

twentypercentmore wrote:
Noodlebrain wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote: Also, Stanford for 3rd. :\


Where is this coming from?


Speculation entirely. Harvard came out of the gate swinging with major acceptances in late November, while Stanford waited until February to start calling people. That seemed to cost them in the long run, since Stanford's ability to "pick off" H acceptances seemed to backfire on them in April, which is likely why they had applicants that hadn't heard back until May. They were pulling multiple people off the waitlist as late as September. While I would personally chose Stanford over Harvard for financial reasons, it seems the majority of double admits decided to go to the school they'd seen during ASW rather than the school that now needed them a few weeks before classes started.


Stanford did increase both medians through its late game WL strategy though.

Noodlebrain
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby Noodlebrain » Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:47 am

jbagelboy wrote: Stanford did increase both medians through its late game WL strategy though.


I don't know the intricacies of the ranking process, but if the only things regarding medians are the number and the change, then I figure Stanford's strategy worked. Maybe it wasn't pretty, though. Anyway, I was just curious (and perhaps a little self-serving).

Skump
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby Skump » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:23 am

Can't wait for Penn to tie NYU... that uncomfortable, comic moment when class boundaries are violated...

::Penn sidles up to the T6 bar, straightens gold chain across wife-beater:: <philly_accent>"Hey there, pretty lady..."</philly_accent>

NYU to Columbia: <trendy_bitch>"Oh, my god, I so did not invite him."</trendy_bitch>

Columbia: <manhattan_wasp_sneer>"Funny, I remember saying the same thing to Harvard and Chicago at a party a few years back..."</manhattan_wasp_sneer>

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Crowing
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby Crowing » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:39 am

2014 wrote:HYSChi you heard it here first


Yeah first from you last year

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sinfiery
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby sinfiery » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:29 pm

I doubt Penn catches NYU. Yeah, there are a ton of PI hippies here but placing gratuitous amounts of grads consistently into biglaw/biglaw partnership (See UCHI styling all over the T14) don't increase your reputation nearly as much as making significant impacts in the realm of PI/Government work (See HYS though presidents and SC justices definitely are better than what NYU is doing)


Look no further than the ford fellowship choosing only HYS and NYU for its participating schools in PI related activities to see this isn't just limited to TLS bias but the PI bias of NYU is well known and very strongly counteracts Penn's dominating private practice numbers.
http://www.fordfoundation.org/issues/ed ... ews?id=665
Also the whole NYU grads get more prefitgious biglaw jobs

californiauser
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby californiauser » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:35 pm

sinfiery wrote:I doubt Penn catches NYU. Yeah, there are a ton of PI hippies here but placing gratuitous amounts of grads consistently into biglaw/biglaw partnership (See UCHI styling all over the T14) don't increase your reputation nearly as much as making significant impacts in the realm of PI/Government work (See HYS though presidents and SC justices definitely are better than what NYU is doing)


Look no further than the ford fellowship choosing only HYS and NYU for its participating schools in PI related activities to see this isn't just limited to TLS bias but the PI bias of NYU is well known and very strongly counteracts Penn's dominating private practice numbers.
http://www.fordfoundation.org/issues/ed ... ews?id=665
Also the whole NYU grads get more prefitgious biglaw jobs


Link?

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sinfiery
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby sinfiery » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:46 pm

californiauser wrote:
sinfiery wrote:I doubt Penn catches NYU. Yeah, there are a ton of PI hippies here but placing gratuitous amounts of grads consistently into biglaw/biglaw partnership (See UCHI styling all over the T14) don't increase your reputation nearly as much as making significant impacts in the realm of PI/Government work (See HYS though presidents and SC justices definitely are better than what NYU is doing)


Look no further than the ford fellowship choosing only HYS and NYU for its participating schools in PI related activities to see this isn't just limited to TLS bias but the PI bias of NYU is well known and very strongly counteracts Penn's dominating private practice numbers.
http://www.fordfoundation.org/issues/ed ... ews?id=665
Also the whole NYU grads get more prefitgious biglaw jobs


Link?



http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/oyer/wp/rankings.pdf
Page 33

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... ool-1.html

http://www.swlaw.edu/pdfs/jle/jle622seto.pdf
page 3

http://about.bloomberglaw.com/practitio ... m-partner/


There use to be a direct link to the statistics but these all allude to it (can't find dl anymore)

Then take the raw numbers and account for class size. If historical class size is different from class sizes of today, these numbers might be wrong ofc

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2014
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby 2014 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:11 pm

Crowing wrote:
2014 wrote:HYSChi you heard it here first


Yeah first from you last year

Aren't you supposed to be on my side

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sublime
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby sublime » Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:21 pm

..

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2014
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby 2014 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:02 pm

sublime wrote:I am just disappointed that noone bit on my WUSTL to the T14 post. :lol:

Hey I'd be down so long as GULC is displaced.

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Yea All Right
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby Yea All Right » Wed Dec 11, 2013 6:25 pm

What kind of changes would be necessary in order for...

...schools to exit/enter the T-14?
...the T-14 group to be relabeled (T-13, T-15, T-16, etc.)?

BigZuck
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:37 pm

Yea All Right wrote:What kind of changes would be necessary in order for...

...schools to exit/enter the T-14?
...the T-14 group to be relabeled (T-13, T-15, T-16, etc.)?


It really and truly does not matter. Your time would be better spent on important thoughts, such as: Boxers or briefs? Or, what should I have for dinner? Or, Michelle Rodriguez: hot or not?

FYI- Boxer-briefs, Pizza, Not

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Yea All Right
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby Yea All Right » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:35 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Yea All Right wrote:What kind of changes would be necessary in order for...

...schools to exit/enter the T-14?
...the T-14 group to be relabeled (T-13, T-15, T-16, etc.)?


It really and truly does not matter. Your time would be better spent on important thoughts, such as: Boxers or briefs? Or, what should I have for dinner? Or, Michelle Rodriguez: hot or not?

FYI- Boxer-briefs, Pizza, Not


Boxers
My friend just asked me Chipotle or Chick-fil-A
Attractive in a spunky girl type of way

So can we go back to my questions? :mrgreen:

dj_roomba
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby dj_roomba » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:01 pm

sinfiery wrote:I doubt Penn catches NYU. Yeah, there are a ton of PI hippies here but placing gratuitous amounts of grads consistently into biglaw/biglaw partnership (See UCHI styling all over the T14) don't increase your reputation nearly as much as making significant impacts in the realm of PI/Government work (See HYS though presidents and SC justices definitely are better than what NYU is doing)


Look no further than the ford fellowship choosing only HYS and NYU for its participating schools in PI related activities to see this isn't just limited to TLS bias but the PI bias of NYU is well known and very strongly counteracts Penn's dominating private practice numbers.
http://www.fordfoundation.org/issues/ed ... ews?id=665
Also the whole NYU grads get more prefitgious biglaw jobs


No I agree with you. I thought Penn>NYU before I came here but I can tell it's not.

It's just that since rankings is largely based on GPA/LSAT and on what applicants want, I think that might affect it. Penn's demand last year was pretty huge, and since many are simply biglaw or bust, their reputation is getting bigger. They were overenrolled from the start and I'm sure this year they'll have a better estimate of how to deal with it (increase medians). This all speculative of course.

Also I read that the ranking method might change, and one of the factors that gives NYU a boost is disappearing. Not sure how true.

Basically I don't think Penn> NYU but I do think that many applicants think that (and that's what matters)

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jbagelboy
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:06 pm

Yea All Right wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Yea All Right wrote:What kind of changes would be necessary in order for...

...schools to exit/enter the T-14?
...the T-14 group to be relabeled (T-13, T-15, T-16, etc.)?


It really and truly does not matter. Your time would be better spent on important thoughts, such as: Boxers or briefs? Or, what should I have for dinner? Or, Michelle Rodriguez: hot or not?

FYI- Boxer-briefs, Pizza, Not


Boxers
My friend just asked me Chipotle or Chick-fil-A
Attractive in a spunky girl type of way

So can we go back to my questions? :mrgreen:


Ranking is just a function of variables, which are assigned numbers. Who gets 14th in the rankings any given year depends on shifts in the opinions of various judges and practitioners, the admission median LSATs and GPAs reported by the school, FT/JD employment data from NALP, a spending per student quotum which may be eliminated, and a few other minor features like library size and acceptance rate.

T14 has been T14 for over thirty years. It would survive regardless of any year to year fluctuation in USNWR.

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cotiger
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby cotiger » Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:44 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Yea All Right wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Yea All Right wrote:What kind of changes would be necessary in order for...

...schools to exit/enter the T-14?
...the T-14 group to be relabeled (T-13, T-15, T-16, etc.)?


It really and truly does not matter. Your time would be better spent on important thoughts, such as: Boxers or briefs? Or, what should I have for dinner? Or, Michelle Rodriguez: hot or not?

FYI- Boxer-briefs, Pizza, Not


Boxers
My friend just asked me Chipotle or Chick-fil-A
Attractive in a spunky girl type of way

So can we go back to my questions? :mrgreen:


Ranking is just a function of variables, which are assigned numbers. Who gets 14th in the rankings any given year depends on shifts in the opinions of various judges and practitioners, the admission median LSATs and GPAs reported by the school, FT/JD employment data from NALP, a spending per student quotum which may be eliminated, and a few other minor features like library size and acceptance rate.

T14 has been T14 for over thirty years. It would survive regardless of any year to year fluctuation in USNWR.


Yup. As much as I like to hate on GULC, even if the rankings strictly used employment data, it is still far and away better than Vandy or Texas and much closer to the rest of the T14 than to those two. The idea of a "T15" is so remote as to be not worth anyone's time thinking about.

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Lincoln
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby Lincoln » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:01 am

KD35 wrote:
Lincoln wrote:Do not, for the love of god, choose a school based on (speculation about) which school will be where in the T14. Choose the school that will give you the best chance of getting the job you want in the location you want for the least amount of money. Or HYS if you get in.


Fixed


Spoken like a true 0/1/2L

californiauser
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby californiauser » Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:13 am

cotiger wrote:
Yup. As much as I like to hate on GULC, even if the rankings strictly used employment data, it is still far and away better than Vandy or Texas and much closer to the rest of the T14 than to those two. The idea of a "T15" is so remote as to be not worth anyone's time thinking about.


No one seriously thinks there will be a t15 because the current t14 have all been in the top 10 at one point, it'd become the t13 if anything, which seems VERY possible if Georgetown ends up surpassed by UT or Vandy in the rankings.

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2014
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby 2014 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:57 am

californiauser wrote:it'd become the t13 if anything

Already there imo

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cotiger
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby cotiger » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:35 am

californiauser wrote:
cotiger wrote:
Yup. As much as I like to hate on GULC, even if the rankings strictly used employment data, it is still far and away better than Vandy or Texas and much closer to the rest of the T14 than to those two. The idea of a "T15" is so remote as to be not worth anyone's time thinking about.


No one seriously thinks there will be a t15 because the current t14 have all been in the top 10 at one point, it'd become the t13 if anything, which seems VERY possible if Georgetown ends up surpassed by UT or Vandy in the rankings.

Already there imo


Surpassed by UT or Vandy how? Are you just talking about USNWR? The T14 aren't the T14 because they've all been in the USNWR top 10 at one point or because they've never dropped out of the top 14 since they started doing yearly rankings (those are results, not causes). They're the T14 because those are the schools with a national reach that give you far and away the best chance for an elite outcome. UT taking the USNWR 14 spot is not going to change that.

If we're talking about the typical applicant who doesn't have super specific career/locational goals, then sure, I'm down with a T13 designation. But that's because its general employment outcomes clearly lag the schools just above it, not anything to do with USNWR.

However, in general, it still makes sense to me to refer to the T14 because GULC gives its grads access to top DC-specific employment better than any school outside of YHS (or at least that's what I've read on TLS) while still giving its grads at least a 50% shot at biglaw. It's still a place to go if you want an elite employment outcome, just a more qualified and specific one.

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2014
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby 2014 » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:15 pm

cotiger wrote:
californiauser wrote:
cotiger wrote:
Yup. As much as I like to hate on GULC, even if the rankings strictly used employment data, it is still far and away better than Vandy or Texas and much closer to the rest of the T14 than to those two. The idea of a "T15" is so remote as to be not worth anyone's time thinking about.


No one seriously thinks there will be a t15 because the current t14 have all been in the top 10 at one point, it'd become the t13 if anything, which seems VERY possible if Georgetown ends up surpassed by UT or Vandy in the rankings.

Already there imo


Surpassed by UT or Vandy how? Are you just talking about USNWR? The T14 aren't the T14 because they've all been in the USNWR top 10 at one point or because they've never dropped out of the top 14 since they started doing yearly rankings (those are results, not causes). They're the T14 because those are the schools with a national reach that give you far and away the best chance for an elite outcome. UT taking the USNWR 14 spot is not going to change that.

If we're talking about the typical applicant who doesn't have super specific career/locational goals, then sure, I'm down with a T13 designation. But that's because its general employment outcomes clearly lag the schools just above it, not anything to do with USNWR.

However, in general, it still makes sense to me to refer to the T14 because GULC gives its grads access to top DC-specific employment better than any school outside of YHS (or at least that's what I've read on TLS) while still giving its grads at least a 50% shot at biglaw. It's still a place to go if you want an elite employment outcome, just a more qualified and specific one.


I said we are already at T13, which would be sans-GULC

GULC has merits but it still has like 300 grads a year in less than desirable outcomes which is egregious. If GULC were to cut down to a reasonable class size, it would serve a great niche of being the best school in the ~4th biggest legal market as well as provide those wanting government jobs a place to go. Schools ahead of and below it serve niches better, it's just kind of the elephant in the room.

BigZuck
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Re: Next years T14: Who's falling, who's trending?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:51 pm

cotiger wrote:
californiauser wrote:
cotiger wrote:
Yup. As much as I like to hate on GULC, even if the rankings strictly used employment data, it is still far and away better than Vandy or Texas and much closer to the rest of the T14 than to those two. The idea of a "T15" is so remote as to be not worth anyone's time thinking about.


No one seriously thinks there will be a t15 because the current t14 have all been in the top 10 at one point, it'd become the t13 if anything, which seems VERY possible if Georgetown ends up surpassed by UT or Vandy in the rankings.

Already there imo


Surpassed by UT or Vandy how? Are you just talking about USNWR? The T14 aren't the T14 because they've all been in the USNWR top 10 at one point or because they've never dropped out of the top 14 since they started doing yearly rankings (those are results, not causes). They're the T14 because those are the schools with a national reach that give you far and away the best chance for an elite outcome. UT taking the USNWR 14 spot is not going to change that.

If we're talking about the typical applicant who doesn't have super specific career/locational goals, then sure, I'm down with a T13 designation. But that's because its general employment outcomes clearly lag the schools just above it, not anything to do with USNWR.

However, in general, it still makes sense to me to refer to the T14 because GULC gives its grads access to top DC-specific employment better than any school outside of YHS (or at least that's what I've read on TLS) while still giving its grads at least a 50% shot at biglaw. It's still a place to go if you want an elite employment outcome, just a more qualified and specific one.


Meh, if I wanted DC I would definitely choose Duke over GULC (dat Duke in DC program) and maybe UVA. Especially if those schools are cheaper, which is likely. GULC blows chunks on a lot of levels.

I have some follow up questions for you though that should really get to the heart of the matter:
Boxers or briefs?
What are you planning on having for dinner tonight?
Michelle Rodriguez: hot or not?




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