Hawaii or UNLV?

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Helloworld3
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Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby Helloworld3 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:10 pm

I have been accepted to Hawaii and UNLV law school, but I am not sure which school I want to attend.

My plan is to practice law in Hawaii, but it would be ideal to study law in UNLV, which is located in my home state. However, I know UNLV Boyd is a regional school and its employment prospects are higher in Nevada than anywhere else.

How good of a chance do I have in getting employed in Hawaii if I attend UNLV Boyd? Which school should I go to?

Thanks to anybody who can help me with this decision.

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sinfiery
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby sinfiery » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:12 pm

Helloworld3 wrote:How good of a chance do I have in getting employed in Hawaii if I attend UNLV Boyd?

1%
Which school should I go to?

Hawaii and/or retake the LSAT to receive a larger scholarship offer from Hawaii.

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PepperJack
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby PepperJack » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:37 pm

Just as an FYI, big law in Hawaii which has only about 15 openings per year total does not even pay 100k market. It would be absurd to pay 150k for the literally .001% chance of getting a job that pays below six figures. COL in Hawaii is not low. I understand your plan OP - it would be awesome to live in Hawaii. I thought this when I first considered law years ago, but then I found objective data indicating the plan isn't feasible even if you were at the tippity top of your class.

doooook
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby doooook » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:48 pm

I go to UH (univeristy of hawaii) for my undergrad. The law program here is great -- small community, very nice people, teachers are great, students aren't as "at each other's necks" so to speak in terms of exams and grades.

Spent a lot of time at Richardson talking to people and stuff, but the above post may be right - the pay around here is not high, and the cost of living is absolutely insane. I'm from southern california and will be moving back after June to live with mom and dad for one year before I start applying to law schools. I will definitely apply here, but I doubt I will be going here.

Also, keep in mind if you live here for one year and get your residency you can get in-state tuition (30k for everything incl. rent which avgs $700 p/mo.) and that's a pretty sweet deal for a law education. 90k total.

Anyways, good luck. Hawaii is the most beautiful place in the US (IMO after living here), but the cost of living is absurd and if you ever expect to have nice cars, house, etc., don't count on it here. Properties are through the roof..... traffic in Honolulu is a nightmare, and this island has 8/10ths of the entire state's population. Go make your killing as a lawyer someplace else, and move to big island many years from now. Cheap living!


Good luck.

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UnicornHunter
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby UnicornHunter » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:49 pm

Do you have any ties to Hawaii? If not, go to UNLV and forget about Hawaii or do the smart thing and retake and/or don't go to law school.

HYSenberg
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby HYSenberg » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:51 pm

Neither is a great choice, but UNLV > UH on employment stats alone. Slightly more people become lawyers from UNLV and the quality of jobs is markedly better. This, of course, assumes that you'd stay in NV post-graduation. UNLV has a good reputation locally and, from what I've heard, alums tend to be loyal. I hope you've gotten substantial money at both schools to realistically consider attending, esp at UH out of state rates. Also, Las Vegas cost of living is the lowest in the nation and HI is one of the highest, if not the highest.

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Merylian
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby Merylian » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:56 pm

Pretty sure unless something has changed since last year, OP, you can NOT get your residency and pay in state tuition for the second two years in Hawaii. They do not allow you to establish residency while going to school full time, or at least they didn't last application cycle.

doooook
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby doooook » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:23 pm

Merylian wrote:Pretty sure unless something has changed since last year, OP, you can NOT get your residency and pay in state tuition for the second two years in Hawaii. They do not allow you to establish residency while going to school full time, or at least they didn't last application cycle.


Correct. OP would have to live here for one year and pay taxes NOT attending school to get their residency, then go to school.

Helloworld3
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby Helloworld3 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:42 pm

Thank you all for replying.

I'm aware of the high cost of living in Hawaii, and I am not concerned about living in luxury or working with a high wage. My goal is to live a simple life. What is of main concern to me is finding employment after I leave law school and I made practicing law in Hawaii as one of my goals. I have family who are close to me that are planning to live in Hawaii within the next decade, and I want to live near them. Apparently, UNLV has better employment prospects, yet unfortunately there is a chance I will be geographically limited to where I can find legal work.

So, this is a tough decision. Would studying at UNLV, building my career as a lawyer in Nevada or in the Pacific states, and then practicing in Hawaii be a wiser decision than studying in Hawaii while hoping I'll land a job somewhere in Hawaii?

Please advise me on this. I really appreciate your help.

HYSenberg
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby HYSenberg » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:18 pm

If you can deal with 32% underemployment, 0% chance of biglaw, 19% working in firms with less than 50 attorneys and >20% working in state and local clerkships (which are usually not desirable outcomes), then UH may be the right option. You need to consider, however, that with no ties and, like the poster above mentioned, no chance to get instate tuition for the latter two years, it could very easily be a terrible financial investment. Basically the only good outcomes from UH are a 2% chance of fed clerkship or 11% chance of a government job, and even those may not be enough to pay off loans in the long term. Those odds are terrible and I hope you are looking at a full ride or close if you decide to choose that route. If you cannot be dissuaded from HI, it may be worth looking into non-legal careers there.

PS I went to UNLV for UG so I know a bit about the NV legal market and it's definitely been hit hard, but even then it's a safer option than UH, which says a lot.

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TheJanitor6203
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:30 am

From my understanding Hawaiians are not very accepting of outsiders. I would think this would make getting a job there very difficult after law school especially considering the tiny market to begin with.

BigZuck
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:45 am

If you're not Hawaiian (as in native) and especially if you're not from Hawaii, you're almost certainly not going to get employed in Hawaii, even if you go to school there. That's just how it is based on everything I have ever heard about that market.

But that's ok. You can still move there and do something different with your life.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:12 am

TheJanitor6203 wrote:From my understanding Hawaiians are not very accepting of outsiders. I would think this would make getting a job there very difficult after law school especially considering the tiny market to begin with.


I've lived in Hawaii.* It is indeed pretty insular. The best jobs are going to go to locals with ties, particularly those who went to Punahou (prestigious private high school) and did their undergrad at UH. If you just show up for law school as a haole with no connections, expect to get the shit end of the stick. You'll be lucky to be defending methheads in Waianae.

Also, the reality of living in Hawaii is different than vacationing there. Horrible traffic, 1970s construction, island fever, and the rough parts of the island aren't things you notice during a week in Waikiki, but you will if you live there. I'm not trying to dump on Hawaii, just saying don't idealize it.

*Was not a lawyer or a law student or even considering law school at that point, so take this with a grain of salt.

timbs4339
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:27 am

TheSpanishMain wrote:
TheJanitor6203 wrote:From my understanding Hawaiians are not very accepting of outsiders. I would think this would make getting a job there very difficult after law school especially considering the tiny market to begin with.


I've lived in Hawaii.* It is indeed pretty insular. The best jobs are going to go to locals with ties, particularly those who went to Punahou (prestigious private high school) and did their undergrad at UH. If you just show up for law school as a haole with no connections, expect to get the shit end of the stick. You'll be lucky to be defending methheads in Waianae.

Also, the reality of living in Hawaii is different than vacationing there. Horrible traffic, 1970s construction, island fever, and the rough parts of the island aren't things you notice during a week in Waikiki, but you will if you live there. I'm not trying to dump on Hawaii, just saying don't idealize it.

*Was not a lawyer or a law student or even considering law school at that point, so take this with a grain of salt.


This comports with what I've heard about the Hawaii legal market in other threads. A forum search would probably turn up similar stuff about how insular the market it. And I honestly have no idea how you expect to work/intern in Hawaii during the summers to establish at least some local ties.

If 10 years is your timeline, than it's plenty of time to go to UNLV for in-state tuition and hopefully money (the total cost of 160K is way too high for an average state school), build a practice in Nevada, and at least have some experience if you finally decide to move.

Also, this guide seems to think that you cannot waive into Hawaii after a few years of practice without retaking the bar (http://www.ncbex.org/assets/media_files ... pGuide.pdf). That might be something you want to think about, as the bar exam requires a few months of study.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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northwood
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby northwood » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:30 am

if you really want to go to Hawaii and practice there, you should develop significant ties to demonstrate your commitment to the state. that means you will have to put law school on the backburner for a few years, then reapply. youll have to move there to do this, and this may sway you to want to stay in Nevada and vacation in Hawaii

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Fussell
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby Fussell » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:38 pm

Person with a lot of experience in HI, who is white, here:

If you are not Pacific Islander and not from Hawaii, I can't imagine finding a job in Hawaii will be very easy. Although, many Hawaiians live in LV, so perhaps you are Hawaiian. I know nothing about the legal market in HI, but Hawaii is very insular and there are a lot of cues that islanders will use to tell that you aren't from/know the islands. [An easy test - do you know what Ohana means? Kamaʻaina?]

Additionally, if you are white, living on HI is a lot harder than visiting. For instance, Spanish Main used the word "haole," which a decent number of Hawaiians use as a racist slur. See "Kill Haole Day" (http://archives.starbulletin.com/1999/0 ... tory7.html). It's an old article, but references the rather surprising number of hate crimes committed on HI, many against European-Americans. If you want to experience racism and are white, head out to Molokai.

I would retake in your shoes for more scholarship money/better schools, or gun to my head, UNLV.

BigZuck
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby BigZuck » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:47 pm

Fussell wrote:Person with a lot of experience in HI, who is white, here:

If you are not Pacific Islander and not from Hawaii, I can't imagine finding a job in Hawaii will be very easy. Although, many Hawaiians live in LV, so perhaps you are Hawaiian. I know nothing about the legal market in HI, but Hawaii is very insular and there are a lot of cues that islanders will use to tell that you aren't from/know the islands. [An easy test - do you know what Ohana means? Kamaʻaina?]

Additionally, if you are white, living on HI is a lot harder than visiting. For instance, Spanish Main used the word "haole," which a decent number of Hawaiians use as a racist slur. See "Kill Haole Day" (http://archives.starbulletin.com/1999/0 ... tory7.html). It's an old article, but references the rather surprising number of hate crimes committed on HI, many against European-Americans. If you want to experience racism and are white, head out to Molokai.

I would retake in your shoes for more scholarship money/better schools, or gun to my head, UNLV.


Everybody who has ever seen Lilo and Stich knows what Ohana means.

I think everything else you said sounds right on.

mr.hands
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby mr.hands » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:29 pm

This is an absolutely terrible idea. I mean, one of the worst ideas.

I may have missed it, but i didn't see whether or not you are from Hawaii or have close ties. If you don't, game over. Don't go to Hawaii. Period.

Find out where you want to work based on your ties, go to the cheapest school in the area with the highest employment. Done.

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TheJanitor6203
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby TheJanitor6203 » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:17 pm

Fussell wrote: Kamaʻaina?.

This the local's price for things isn't it? I had a friend who tried to teach me pidgin. He thought it was hilarious.

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Fussell
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby Fussell » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:57 am

TheJanitor6203 wrote:
Fussell wrote: Kamaʻaina?.

This the local's price for things isn't it? I had a friend who tried to teach me pidgin. He thought it was hilarious.


He taught you pretty well, I even had to look up the spelling, haha. But yes, it's the locals' price, and it is often a very steep discount or can make things free, like parking.

And BigZuck, you are right. Ohana means family, although it also frequently refers to an in-law unit on one's property.

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TheSpanishMain
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby TheSpanishMain » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:27 am

Fussell wrote:Additionally, if you are white, living on HI is a lot harder than visiting. For instance, Spanish Main used the word "haole," which a decent number of Hawaiians use as a racist slur. See "Kill Haole Day" (http://archives.starbulletin.com/1999/0 ... tory7.html). It's an old article, but references the rather surprising number of hate crimes committed on HI, many against European-Americans. If you want to experience racism and are white, head out to Molokai.



This is true. Most Hawaiians who use haole use it in a tongue in cheek, half joking way, and aren't genuinely racist against white people. There are definitely areas, though, where being non-Hawaiian will get you some hard stares, and people say haole with the same venom and sincerity as othes would say "nigg*r" or "spic." ( Gotta love that word filter.)

gopats
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Re: Hawaii or UNLV?

Postby gopats » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:21 pm

doooook wrote:Anyways, good luck. Hawaii is the most beautiful place in the US (IMO after living here), but the cost of living is absurd and if you ever expect to have nice cars, house, etc., don't count on it here. Properties are through the roof..... traffic in Honolulu is a nightmare, and this island has 8/10ths of the entire state's population. Go make your killing as a lawyer someplace else, and move to big island many years from now. Cheap living!


Good luck.


is the legal market on the big island hard to break into? I know its probably supper small




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