So you want to do PI?

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midwest17
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby midwest17 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:54 pm

BlueLotus wrote:Just downloaded the app Conjuverb and it seems like a solid way to drill verb conjugations.

Haven't tried Rosetta Stone or any of the more costly software, but then again I took Spanish throughout H.S. and minored in it in UG, so maybe it would be a better investment for someone more fresh to the language.

Harvey's Spanish for Lawyers and Paralegals is a good review of special legal terminology that you may not learn in a traditional course but would surely come in handy for you as a budding PD. Comes with 2 discs.


Thanks!

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:35 pm

So, TCR is that a 2 page resume is OK for fellowships, but that for internships/jobs you should stick to the traditional 1 pager, amirite?

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Nelson
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby Nelson » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:42 pm

BlueLotus wrote:So, TCR is that a 2 page resume is OK for fellowships, but that for internships/jobs you should stick to the traditional 1 pager, amirite?

Depends on how much experience you have.

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worldtraveler
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:02 am

BlueLotus wrote:So, TCR is that a 2 page resume is OK for fellowships, but that for internships/jobs you should stick to the traditional 1 pager, amirite?


I've used a 2 pager for everything.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:52 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:So, TCR is that a 2 page resume is OK for fellowships, but that for internships/jobs you should stick to the traditional 1 pager, amirite?


I've used a 2 pager for everything.


I only graduated undergrad in 2010, so perhaps given my relative (in)experience, I should stick to 1 page?

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worldtraveler
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:03 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:So, TCR is that a 2 page resume is OK for fellowships, but that for internships/jobs you should stick to the traditional 1 pager, amirite?


I've used a 2 pager for everything.


I only graduated undergrad in 2010, so perhaps given my relative (in)experience, I should stick to 1 page?


It depends on what you have. You should have detailed descriptions of your Americorps work and any internship, clinic, or volunteer experience in law school. If you did relevant internships or work in undergrad, put that too.

Don't make it two pages to include that you work at Starbucks but if you need 2 pages to explain the kind of immigration work you do, use it. You need to say whether you worked on U visas, did interviews, and what you actually did.

I see a lot of resumes that just have a line saying something like "asylum representation clinic." Don't do that. Give info on how many cases you handled, the types of cases, regions or countries your clients came from, whether you did research or direct representation.

Honestly any competitive PI candidate probably has enough info to make it 2 pages.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:46 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
worldtraveler wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:So, TCR is that a 2 page resume is OK for fellowships, but that for internships/jobs you should stick to the traditional 1 pager, amirite?


I've used a 2 pager for everything.


I only graduated undergrad in 2010, so perhaps given my relative (in)experience, I should stick to 1 page?


It depends on what you have. You should have detailed descriptions of your Americorps work and any internship, clinic, or volunteer experience in law school. If you did relevant internships or work in undergrad, put that too.

Don't make it two pages to include that you work at Starbucks but if you need 2 pages to explain the kind of immigration work you do, use it. You need to say whether you worked on U visas, did interviews, and what you actually did.

I see a lot of resumes that just have a line saying something like "asylum representation clinic." Don't do that. Give info on how many cases you handled, the types of cases, regions or countries your clients came from, whether you did research or direct representation.

Honestly any competitive PI candidate probably has enough info to make it 2 pages.


Yeah, I do have enough experience to make it 2 pages, but I had been following the TLS conventional wisdom and keeping it succinct. I did do PI internships/volunteer work in UG, but they were not legal (i.e. adult literacy tutoring, Best Buddies, etc.)--should I still include those on the 2 page version? My earliest entry under "EXPERIENCE" is my AmeriCorps year which was post-UG.

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worldtraveler
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:57 pm

Keep them on it but just mention it in a line as activities in college.

You really need to think of PI hiring as a completely separate field from firm hiring. TLS Conventional wisdom is all about firms and clerkships and doesn't apply here.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:02 pm

Anyone else here have a 2 page resume? Is that more of an IHR thing or PI in general? Aiming for domestic legal aid.

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JCougar
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby JCougar » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:35 pm

I have a 2-page resume. I've had a lot of people tell me it should only be one page, but I didn't really listen to them. So far, I don't think my 2-pager has held me back. I've gotten interviews nearly every time a job I've been qualified for has popped up (which is a small sample size, I know). I really don't understand the "1 page" thing. If it's 2 pages, you can just browse the headlines, and save diving into the detail unless you're really interested in that section. The people who lean to the "1-page" thing seem to be more from the Biglaw side, though...I guess it makes sense because all they really care about is school rank, law review, and GPA.

But I also have some pre-law school significant work experience, as well as another degree, a publication, volunteer experience, community leadership, etc., so I actually have stuff to put on the second page.

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cron1834
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby cron1834 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:39 pm

My GF reviews resumes for a Legal Aid office in my state. She told me that 1 page chock-full of good stuff is better than the same amount of info inflated over 2 pages. Honestly, consider your reader and make a judgment call as to how much you're putting down and how much space you really need.

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worldtraveler
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby worldtraveler » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:48 pm

cron1834 wrote:My GF reviews resumes for a Legal Aid office in my state. She told me that 1 page chock-full of good stuff is better than the same amount of info inflated over 2 pages. Honestly, consider your reader and make a judgment call as to how much you're putting down and how much space you really need.


The problem is though that some people have enough stuff that you don't have to inflate without getting to two pages.

A lot of people do waste space though and have huge margins or giant spaces and could easily get to two pages without eliminating content.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:49 pm

cron1834 wrote:My GF reviews resumes for a Legal Aid office in my state. She told me that 1 page chock-full of good stuff is better than the same amount of info inflated over 2 pages. Honestly, consider your reader and make a judgment call as to how much you're putting down and how much space you really need.


thanks, good call. legal aid is actually my dream jerb.

what would you say should be the absolute min. font size for a resume/CL? 10 pt?

in addition, a fellowship i am gunning for asks for three references. should I do 2 profs + 1 supervisor, or 2 supervisors +1 prof?

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cron1834
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby cron1834 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:16 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
cron1834 wrote:My GF reviews resumes for a Legal Aid office in my state. She told me that 1 page chock-full of good stuff is better than the same amount of info inflated over 2 pages. Honestly, consider your reader and make a judgment call as to how much you're putting down and how much space you really need.


The problem is though that some people have enough stuff that you don't have to inflate without getting to two pages.

A lot of people do waste space though and have huge margins or giant spaces and could easily get to two pages without eliminating content.


Yeah, obviously this is context specific. In my case I have a lot of academic and WE stuff going on prior to law school that I might not put down by the time I graduate - it won't be relevant when I apply to be an attorney, or at least questionably so.

If your shit is all relevant, and you aren't running 2-inch margins, then two pages is legit. I just think there are a lot of people who put down every volunteer gig they ever had, even if it has JACK to do with what you're asking for.

BlueLotus - I think most people will tell you that 10 is the absolute min. I reviewed resumes in the private sector, and anything smaller is terrible. Some will tell you not to do 10, but that was fine with me. GF agrees. We're only two data points, though, so ask around.

Also, she says that a supervising atty or clinical supervisor is worth lots more than a book-and-classroom prof, unless the prof is world-renowned or something. This is probably old-news to everyone here. She got her job almost exclusively through a recommendation from her clinical supervisor, who also had an alumni connection with the boss. Of course, knowing Spanish and going to a great school are also key. Not knowing another language is why I'm forgetting about PI for myself!

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:45 pm

midwest17 wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:Just downloaded the app Conjuverb and it seems like a solid way to drill verb conjugations.

Haven't tried Rosetta Stone or any of the more costly software, but then again I took Spanish throughout H.S. and minored in it in UG, so maybe it would be a better investment for someone more fresh to the language.

Harvey's Spanish for Lawyers and Paralegals is a good review of special legal terminology that you may not learn in a traditional course but would surely come in handy for you as a budding PD. Comes with 2 discs.


Thanks!


You're welcome, midwest18! Also, just checked this out from the lawbrary, and it is gold. Good for high-intermediate/advanced students of Spanish. :

http://www.amazon.com/Espa%C3%B1ol-Abog ... 1609302168

Thanks cron! It is helpful getting the insider perspective from someone in a position to hire for legal aid.

hopin10
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby hopin10 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:48 pm

Tanicius wrote:
twenty wrote:On the up side, everything is up from sequester levels.

Anyway, ran here to post this: I'm currently doing preliminary evaluations for a federal position that had more than 110 applications for the single spot (this isn't a legal hiring spot, but it's JD-advantage). We've had a guy float around our office doing volunteer work for us -- I think he's a 2L, but I'm not sure. He's also an ex-Marine. Just watched my supervisor chew him out in the hallway because the guy didn't apply for the job.

Just to be clear on this, there are 110 applications for one job. The hiring authority then sought out a guy with so-so work experience, a military history, and nowhere close to a fully-completed JD for a job that really prefers a JD, and chewed him out because my agency would have given him the job on the spot.


Yeah, I'm finding that this is pretty much the only way a bunch of government PI orgs hire now. I was just given an offer where I had fairly high connections, and all other jobs I applied for, including those I've worked at extensively, resulted in rejections. If I did not have the connections I do at the office where I was given an offer, I probably would have struck out for my 3L year and had to bum it out in volunteer positions for a year or two.


Where is the offer from? Congrats!

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:19 pm

hopin10 wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
twenty wrote:On the up side, everything is up from sequester levels.

Anyway, ran here to post this: I'm currently doing preliminary evaluations for a federal position that had more than 110 applications for the single spot (this isn't a legal hiring spot, but it's JD-advantage). We've had a guy float around our office doing volunteer work for us -- I think he's a 2L, but I'm not sure. He's also an ex-Marine. Just watched my supervisor chew him out in the hallway because the guy didn't apply for the job.

Just to be clear on this, there are 110 applications for one job. The hiring authority then sought out a guy with so-so work experience, a military history, and nowhere close to a fully-completed JD for a job that really prefers a JD, and chewed him out because my agency would have given him the job on the spot.


Yeah, I'm finding that this is pretty much the only way a bunch of government PI orgs hire now. I was just given an offer where I had fairly high connections, and all other jobs I applied for, including those I've worked at extensively, resulted in rejections. If I did not have the connections I do at the office where I was given an offer, I probably would have struck out for my 3L year and had to bum it out in volunteer positions for a year or two.


Where is the offer from? Congrats!


I'm surprised by your story, twenty. I was under the impression that other than judicial clerkships, it is too early for 2Ls like that ex-Marine guy to apply for FTLT postgrad jerbs?

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twenty
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby twenty » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:37 pm

It's not JD-required.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:59 pm

twenty wrote:It's not JD-required.


whoops, RC fail.

i don't think it was right for the supervisor to chew that guy out in front of others. i honestly don't know what i would have done in that situation--drop out and take the JD Advantage gig or forego that opportunity and complete the degree now that I'm already more than 1/2 done...

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twenty
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby twenty » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:24 pm

Which is probably exactly why he didn't apply for it in the first place. :P I guess the moral of the story is, there are a hundred (probably more impressive) resumes from people we don't know, and one guy who's not even done with his JD yet, but has shown a legitimate interest in the agency. Then we go out of our way to try and find that guy so we can hire him.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:27 pm

twenty wrote:Which is probably exactly why he didn't apply for it in the first place. :P I guess the moral of the story is, there are a hundred (probably more impressive) resumes from people we don't know, and one guy who's not even done with his JD yet, but has shown a legitimate interest in the agency. Then we go out of our way to try and find that guy so we can hire him.


His military vet status has got to be a huuuuge boost, tho.

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twenty
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby twenty » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:02 pm

That's kind of the frustrating thing about federal jobs. Most places score on NORs -- or applications questions answered with "yes" answers. But they're ridiculously stupid questions, like "Have you ever worked with a team to meet a deadline?" or "Have you ever performed beyond expectations?"

Not surprisingly, everyone gets an 100% qualifying score. With the extra five vet points, 105% is far "more qualified" than anyone else, so usually HR doesn't even bother forwarding the rest of the applications.

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worldtraveler
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby worldtraveler » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:10 pm

twenty wrote:That's kind of the frustrating thing about federal jobs. Most places score on NORs -- or applications questions answered with "yes" answers. But they're ridiculously stupid questions, like "Have you ever worked with a team to meet a deadline?" or "Have you ever performed beyond expectations?"

Not surprisingly, everyone gets an 100% qualifying score. With the extra five vet points, 105% is far "more qualified" than anyone else, so usually HR doesn't even bother forwarding the rest of the applications.


I hate those things with a passion. The PMF process was one of the dumbest hiring processes I've ever encountered.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:19 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
twenty wrote:That's kind of the frustrating thing about federal jobs. Most places score on NORs -- or applications questions answered with "yes" answers. But they're ridiculously stupid questions, like "Have you ever worked with a team to meet a deadline?" or "Have you ever performed beyond expectations?"

Not surprisingly, everyone gets an 100% qualifying score. With the extra five vet points, 105% is far "more qualified" than anyone else, so usually HR doesn't even bother forwarding the rest of the applications.


I hate those things with a passion. The PMF process was one of the dumbest hiring processes I've ever encountered.


what does PMF look for? are they grades/rank/LR-whoring?

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twenty
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby twenty » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:14 am

PMF is a little bit more prestige/grades whorish than most other government (state/federal) spots, but not overwhelmingly so. Back in the day, they used to administer a weird "LSAT-style" (LR/LG/RC) assessment exam to factor into the hiring -- not sure if they still do that. Veteran's preference basically guarantees you a spot.




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