So you want to do PI?

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mr. wednesday
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby mr. wednesday » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:00 pm

BlueLotus wrote:How important is moot court for PI jerbs? Aiming for legal aid here. I am already interning ~20 hours/week, so not sure sure I have the time to devote to it.

Meh. Always seemed pointless to me. Why pretend to play lawyer when you can work in an actual office that could hire you after graduation?

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:05 pm

mr. wednesday wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:How important is moot court for PI jerbs? Aiming for legal aid here. I am already interning ~20 hours/week, so not sure sure I have the time to devote to it.

Meh. Always seemed pointless to me. Why pretend to play lawyer when you can work in an actual office that could hire you after graduation?


i suppose you're right! and 20 hours/week is pretty intense according to folks in the 2LOL thread.

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sd5289
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby sd5289 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:23 pm

mr. wednesday wrote:Meh. Always seemed pointless to me. Why pretend to play lawyer when you can work in an actual office that could hire you after graduation?


I was told differently (but from ADA's, so not sure if it also applies to Legal Aid too). Their reasoning was simply that criminal law requires you to be up in court a lot, thinking on your feet, making arguments you didn't expect to make, etc., which moot court is good at training you how to do (or at least giving you practice at).

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:26 pm

sd5289 wrote:Yeah, with the exception of the DOJ Summer Law Internship Program, most summer PI gigs (including gov't) are unpaid. I'll be at a USAO this coming summer, which will be unpaid even though the local DA I worked for 1L summer was paid.


are you at least getting a stipend from your school?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:28 pm

At my school, the future PD/DAs all did mock trial over moot court. I still think actual intern/clinic work was favored more, though.

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sd5289
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby sd5289 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:28 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
sd5289 wrote:Yeah, with the exception of the DOJ Summer Law Internship Program, most summer PI gigs (including gov't) are unpaid. I'll be at a USAO this coming summer, which will be unpaid even though the local DA I worked for 1L summer was paid.


are you at least getting a stipend from your school?


Yes, but it's pretty low. I'm hoping to get one of the fellowships that will at least bump me up to minimum wage status as opposed to slave labor status.

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sd5289
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby sd5289 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:29 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:At my school, the future PD/DAs all did mock trial over moot court. I still think actual intern/clinic work was favored more, though.


Yeah, we get the chance to do that too during the "winter semester" of 3L. Can't. Wait. [/sarcasm]

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midwest17
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby midwest17 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:30 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:At my school, the future PD/DAs all did mock trial over moot court. I still think actual intern/clinic work was favored more, though.


Yeah, mock trial seems better. (But I'm a 0L so what do I know.) Assuming you want a trial-level position, of course.

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sd5289
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby sd5289 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:34 pm

midwest17 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:At my school, the future PD/DAs all did mock trial over moot court. I still think actual intern/clinic work was favored more, though.


Yeah, mock trial seems better. (But I'm a 0L so what do I know.) Assuming you want a trial-level position, of course.


There seems to be such a diverse opinion on this on TLS (as well as other sources), that I wonder if it's not more about how you spin it. By the end of 3L, I'll have mock trial, moot court, a year long clinic, and two prosecution-specific internships, assuming I don't do any externships during 3L. So far, I've simply tied the experience I have to the positions I've applied to with a lot of success.

What do you think TLSers? Thoughts? Does it matter so much what the experience is as opposed to what you do with it during interviews?

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midwest17
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby midwest17 » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:36 pm

sd5289 wrote:
midwest17 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:At my school, the future PD/DAs all did mock trial over moot court. I still think actual intern/clinic work was favored more, though.


Yeah, mock trial seems better. (But I'm a 0L so what do I know.) Assuming you want a trial-level position, of course.


There seems to be such a diverse opinion on this on TLS (as well as other sources), that I wonder if it's not more about how you spin it. By the end of 3L, I'll have mock trial, moot court, a year long clinic, and two prosecution-specific internships, assuming I don't do any externships during 3L. So far, I've simply tied the experience I have to the positions I've applied to with a lot of success.

What do you think TLSers? Thoughts? Does it matter so much what the experience is as opposed to what you do with it during interviews?

I mean, yeah, I'm sure it's about how you spin it. But some things are going to be easier to spin, aren't they?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:41 pm

Well, what you can do with an experience during interviews depends in part on what that experience is.

But I think the other thing is that when the question comes up, "is moot court worth it?", it tends to result in answers considering moot court in a vacuum. I mean, if you already have mock trial, clinic, and internship experience, sure, moot court is great. There's no reason not to do moot court if you can, it's just that I'd prioritize other things over moot court, if it's either/or.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:43 pm

I know this is school-specific, but how much of a time commitment is moot ct., for those 3Ls/grads who've done it?
Last edited by BlueLotus on Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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girlmonster
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby girlmonster » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:07 am

This thread is probably the most helpful thread I've read on TLS. However, I do still have a question for you PI gurus (and please let me know if I should start another thread for this). Do any of you have recommendations on what I can do as a 0L (and even when I'm a 1L) to pursue "international public interest?" I've been out of the human rights community for a couple of years, working in domestic and local nonprofits instead, and I start at CLS in the fall.

Thanks for all the incredible insight all of you have shared!

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:09 am

girlmonster wrote:This thread is probably the most helpful thread I've read on TLS. However, I do still have a question for you PI gurus (and please let me know if I should start another thread for this). Do any of you have recommendations on what I can do as a 0L (and even when I'm a 1L) to pursue "international public interest?" I've been out of the human rights community for a couple of years, working in domestic and local nonprofits instead, and I start at CLS in the fall.

Thanks for all the incredible insight all of you have shared!


enter worldtraveler in 3...2...1

maybe pick up another language? what foreign languages are you fluent in? (do this as an 0L, not 1L)

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girlmonster
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby girlmonster » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:13 am

BlueLotus wrote:
girlmonster wrote:This thread is probably the most helpful thread I've read on TLS. However, I do still have a question for you PI gurus (and please let me know if I should start another thread for this). Do any of you have recommendations on what I can do as a 0L (and even when I'm a 1L) to pursue "international public interest?" I've been out of the human rights community for a couple of years, working in domestic and local nonprofits instead, and I start at CLS in the fall.

Thanks for all the incredible insight all of you have shared!


enter worldtraveler in 3...2...1

maybe pick up another language? what foreign languages are you fluent in? (do this as an 0L, not 1L)


I minored in Arabic, and was pretty fluent in Modern Standard, but I graduated a few years ago; so that's fallen to the wayside. :? I'm going to work on getting it back, though. Most of my family speaks the language, but they only speak a regional dialect. And I don't really like talking to them.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:20 am

girlmonster wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
girlmonster wrote:This thread is probably the most helpful thread I've read on TLS. However, I do still have a question for you PI gurus (and please let me know if I should start another thread for this). Do any of you have recommendations on what I can do as a 0L (and even when I'm a 1L) to pursue "international public interest?" I've been out of the human rights community for a couple of years, working in domestic and local nonprofits instead, and I start at CLS in the fall.

Thanks for all the incredible insight all of you have shared!


enter worldtraveler in 3...2...1

maybe pick up another language? what foreign languages are you fluent in? (do this as an 0L, not 1L)


I minored in Arabic, and was pretty fluent in Modern Standard, but I graduated a few years ago; so that's fallen to the wayside. :? I'm going to work on getting it back, though. Most of my family speaks the language, but they only speak a regional dialect. And I don't really like talking to them.


spanish and/french would be a great addition.

also, although don't go overboard given the importance of grades for "prestigious" PI like IHR, it would be a good idea to do pro bono work even during 1L. a couple of hours won't kill your grades (plenty of folks on LR/top of the class at my school did a bit of volunteering even during the 1L grind...or if you're too worried, just arrange to volunteer somewhere over winter break when u don't have to worry about classes)

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:23 am

worldtraveler made a good thread about this about 2011ish--i would look search thru her posts and check it out--she's probably much more knowledgeable than I

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girlmonster
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby girlmonster » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:31 am

BlueLotus wrote:spanish and/french would be a great addition.

also, although don't go overboard given the importance of grades for "prestigious" PI like IHR, it would be a good idea to do pro bono work even during 1L. a couple of hours won't kill your grades (plenty of folks on LR/top of the class at my school did a bit of volunteering even during the 1L grind...or if you're too worried, just arrange to volunteer somewhere over winter break when u don't have to worry about classes)


Thank you for your help, you are incredibly awesome. I'm definitely going to try to branch out into volunteer opportunities, especially since I've heard and read that networking is incredibly important. I'm also going to work on developing my French and Spanish (I have a background with both those languages as well) and brush up on my Arabic between now and fall. Do you have recommendations on language-learning software/websites?

Any other advice is also welcome!

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:38 am

girlmonster wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:spanish and/french would be a great addition.

also, although don't go overboard given the importance of grades for "prestigious" PI like IHR, it would be a good idea to do pro bono work even during 1L. a couple of hours won't kill your grades (plenty of folks on LR/top of the class at my school did a bit of volunteering even during the 1L grind...or if you're too worried, just arrange to volunteer somewhere over winter break when u don't have to worry about classes)


Thank you for your help, you are incredibly awesome. I'm definitely going to try to branch out into volunteer opportunities, especially since I've heard and read that networking is incredibly important. I'm also going to work on developing my French and Spanish (I have a background with both those languages as well) and brush up on my Arabic between now and fall. Do you have recommendations on language-learning software/websites?

Any other advice is also welcome!


mango languages will be free thru your local public library. http://www.mangolanguages.com/
duolingo is also free. downloaded it a few days ago, though i have yet to try it. reviews on the app store are rave, tho, and it seems like a solid program. http://www.duolingo.com/
I've been reading William C. Harvey's Spanish for Attorneys and Paralegals over winter break and it's super helpful for picking up specialized terminology.

Have you looked into FLAS fellowships?

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girlmonster
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby girlmonster » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:52 am

BlueLotus wrote:
girlmonster wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:spanish and/french would be a great addition.

also, although don't go overboard given the importance of grades for "prestigious" PI like IHR, it would be a good idea to do pro bono work even during 1L. a couple of hours won't kill your grades (plenty of folks on LR/top of the class at my school did a bit of volunteering even during the 1L grind...or if you're too worried, just arrange to volunteer somewhere over winter break when u don't have to worry about classes)


Thank you for your help, you are incredibly awesome. I'm definitely going to try to branch out into volunteer opportunities, especially since I've heard and read that networking is incredibly important. I'm also going to work on developing my French and Spanish (I have a background with both those languages as well) and brush up on my Arabic between now and fall. Do you have recommendations on language-learning software/websites?

Any other advice is also welcome!


mango languages will be free thru your local public library. http://www.mangolanguages.com/
duolingo is also free. downloaded it a few days ago, though i have yet to try it. reviews on the app store are rave, tho, and it seems like a solid program. http://www.duolingo.com/
I've been reading William C. Harvey's Spanish for Attorneys and Paralegals over winter break and it's super helpful for picking up specialized terminology.

Have you looked into FLAS fellowships?


No, I hadn't heard of FLAS, but I'm researching it now. What's your experience with the program?

And now I'll commence my TLS-stalking of worldtraveler.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:56 am

girlmonster wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
girlmonster wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:spanish and/french would be a great addition.

also, although don't go overboard given the importance of grades for "prestigious" PI like IHR, it would be a good idea to do pro bono work even during 1L. a couple of hours won't kill your grades (plenty of folks on LR/top of the class at my school did a bit of volunteering even during the 1L grind...or if you're too worried, just arrange to volunteer somewhere over winter break when u don't have to worry about classes)


Thank you for your help, you are incredibly awesome. I'm definitely going to try to branch out into volunteer opportunities, especially since I've heard and read that networking is incredibly important. I'm also going to work on developing my French and Spanish (I have a background with both those languages as well) and brush up on my Arabic between now and fall. Do you have recommendations on language-learning software/websites?

Any other advice is also welcome!


mango languages will be free thru your local public library. http://www.mangolanguages.com/
duolingo is also free. downloaded it a few days ago, though i have yet to try it. reviews on the app store are rave, tho, and it seems like a solid program. http://www.duolingo.com/
I've been reading William C. Harvey's Spanish for Attorneys and Paralegals over winter break and it's super helpful for picking up specialized terminology.

Have you looked into FLAS fellowships?


No, I hadn't heard of FLAS, but I'm researching it now. What's your experience with the program?

And now I'll commence my TLS-stalking of worldtraveler.


my school unfortunately has not received an allocation of FLAS fellowships from the U.S. Department of Education. :?

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Dingo Starr
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby Dingo Starr » Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:57 am

BlueLotus wrote:worldtraveler made a good thread about this about 2011ish--i would look search thru her posts and check it out--she's probably much more knowledgeable than I

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149331&p=4122660#p4122660

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girlmonster
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby girlmonster » Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:15 am

Dingo Starr wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:worldtraveler made a good thread about this about 2011ish--i would look search thru her posts and check it out--she's probably much more knowledgeable than I

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149331&p=4122660#p4122660


I JUST found that thread after stalking her posts. I don't know how I missed it, with all my numerous forum searches. Thanks for posting it!

ETA: I just want to express my gratitude that there are at least two safe havens on TLS where I'm not waterboarded with the biglaw Kool-Aid.

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BlueLotus
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby BlueLotus » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:36 pm

girlmonster wrote:
Dingo Starr wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:worldtraveler made a good thread about this about 2011ish--i would look search thru her posts and check it out--she's probably much more knowledgeable than I

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=149331&p=4122660#p4122660


I JUST found that thread after stalking her posts. I don't know how I missed it, with all my numerous forum searches. Thanks for posting it!

ETA: I just want to express my gratitude that there are at least two safe havens on TLS where I'm not waterboarded with the biglaw Kool-Aid.


^yeah, this, and the Prosecution/PD Gunner threads are certainly refreshing in the biglawl obsessed milieu that is TLS.

there's an adage on here that "international law doesn't exist". i don't really get it :?:

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mr. wednesday
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Re: So you want to do PI?

Postby mr. wednesday » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:33 am

International law generally exists obviously. When people say that international human rights law doesn't exist, they mean there are only a handful of jobs anywhere that fit that description and your likelihood of getting one right out of law school is incredibly, incredibly low.

There just isn't much international legal authority for US JDs to go around prosecuting human rights violations or whatever outside of The Hague or I guess the UN if you really stretch that definition. Slightly more opportunities with int'l aid orgs, but they tend not to hire recent grads. Tons of public interest minded people seem more interested in the abstract of foreign aid than domestic legal aid, PDs, lobbying or activism groups, etc. But what few jobs are available in PI right now tend to be those everyday domestic legal aid types.

Then there is the issue of PSLF--international orgs generally won't qualify you, so if you are counting on that you need a domestic org doing international work. If someone were fluent in English and French and could go to a top school with little to no debt, I'd say they should absolutely go for it. But otherwise, it's tough to realistically advise someone to go for a job that they have 1% chance of getting unless they also have a backup they'd be happy with.




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