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Cicero76
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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby Cicero76 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:52 pm

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Last edited by Cicero76 on Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:56 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
rad lulz wrote:This thread sucks

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jbagelboy
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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:58 pm

run26.2 wrote:
Cicero76 wrote:
run26.2 wrote:Who cares? Any lay prestige of your law school is short-lived. You will graduate and go work in a firm. And no one who is not a lawyer will ever recognize the name of your firm. And you won't say, "Oh, but I went to Harvard!"

And if you work anywhere else, people will form their impressions based on your job. No one outside the law will have an opportunity to form an impression of you based on your school, unless you go to an elite school and spout off about it, in which case they will think a lot less of you.


This is not true.

Also, like OP I'm from the South. Every time I tell someone I go to Yale, they ask if I applied to Harvard with a pitying face. Beyond that, Columbia, Duke, and Georgetown have outsized reputations for God knows what reason. A random kid at my undergrad (UF) had transferred from Cornell, and that was a huge panty dropper for reasons that are frankly beyond comprehension.

Great refutation of my argument that it doesn't matter once you graduate based on your personal experience while still in school.


I agree that once you start work for a firm, doesn't matter whether you were top 10% at Fordham, top third at Mich or a Harvard bro below median. You're all in the same set of cubes and your work is judged on its merits. Your advancement opportunities are largely determined by the quality of your work product and your client interactions, not the name on your degree (unless a prof pulls you out into a clerkship with a judge friend or something, which usually only happens from certain schools, but partners can do this too for their civil lit staff).

I think Cicero's point of contention is your statement that lay people won't form any distinct impression of you based on where you got your degrees. I also think educated "lay" people (non-law professionals) DO know the names and relative import of major law firms. When you say Sullivan and Cromwell or Skadden Arps to people in business, medicine, media (maybe not academia...) they know what you are referring to. My parents and their friends don't know what vault is, but they know the names of major law firms. People outside of work also will continue to ask you where you went to school long after you've gotten your first legal job.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby run26.2 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:01 pm

You understand I was talking about "lay prestige," right?

If someone is hiring you for a job, their evaluation of your credentials seems to fall outside of the domain of lay prestige.

To jbagel - My experience is that non-lawyers rarely, if ever, ask where I went to school when I discuss my profession. It just doesn't come up.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby Cicero76 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:05 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
Cicero76 wrote:
run26.2 wrote:Who cares? Any lay prestige of your law school is short-lived. You will graduate and go work in a firm. And no one who is not a lawyer will ever recognize the name of your firm. And you won't say, "Oh, but I went to Harvard!"

And if you work anywhere else, people will form their impressions based on your job. No one outside the law will have an opportunity to form an impression of you based on your school, unless you go to an elite school and spout off about it, in which case they will think a lot less of you.


This is not true.

Also, like OP I'm from the South. Every time I tell someone I go to Yale, they ask if I applied to Harvard with a pitying face. Beyond that, Columbia, Duke, and Georgetown have outsized reputations for God knows what reason. A random kid at my undergrad (UF) had transferred from Cornell, and that was a huge panty dropper for reasons that are frankly beyond comprehension.

Great refutation of my argument that it doesn't matter once you graduate based on your personal experience while still in school.


I agree that once you start work for a firm, doesn't matter whether you were top 10% at Fordham, top third at Mich or a Harvard bro below median. You're all in the same set of cubes and your work is judged on its merits. Your advancement opportunities are largely determined by the quality of your work product and your client interactions, not the name on your degree (unless a prof pulls you out into a clerkship with a judge friend or something, which usually only happens from certain schools, but partners can do this too for their civil lit staff).

I think Cicero's point of contention is your statement that lay people won't form any distinct impression of you based on where you got your degrees. I also think educated "lay" people (non-law professionals) DO know the names and relative import of major law firms. When you say Sullivan and Cromwell or Skadden Arps to people in business, medicine, media (maybe not academia...) they know what you are referring to. My parents and their friends don't know what vault is, but they know the names of major law firms. People outside of work also will continue to ask you where you went to school long after you've gotten your first legal job.


This, exactly. Especially that people still ask where you went to school. You don't have to "spout off about it" or whatever. Your experience may vary, but it's still all anecdotal.


But,

ManoftheHour wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
rad lulz wrote:This thread sucks

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:08 pm

run26.2 wrote:You understand I was talking about "lay prestige," right?

If someone is hiring you for a job, their evaluation of your credentials seems to fall outside of the domain of lay prestige.

To jbagel - My experience is that non-lawyers rarely, if ever, ask where I went to school when I discuss my profession. It just doesn't come up.


Interesting. It sounds like you have some pretty chill and down to earth friends/acquaintances. This isn't always the case - maybe its just because of where I grew up and the people I know, but where someone went to school (and where their kids go to school) is an essential inquiry. Sadly, pedigree appears to have become the new silver spoon in America.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby Cicero76 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:12 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
run26.2 wrote:You understand I was talking about "lay prestige," right?

If someone is hiring you for a job, their evaluation of your credentials seems to fall outside of the domain of lay prestige.

To jbagel - My experience is that non-lawyers rarely, if ever, ask where I went to school when I discuss my profession. It just doesn't come up.


Interesting. It sounds like you have some pretty chill and down to earth friends/acquaintances. This isn't always the case - maybe its just because of where I grew up and the people I know, but where someone went to school (and where their kids go to school) is an essential inquiry. Sadly, pedigree appears to have become the new silver spoon in America.


It's always the first question in Florida, but for what is maybe a slightly different reason. If you answer any instate school other than UF/FSU, then you're kinda dismissed, but answering one of those will usually create an instant bond of either camaraderie or genial hatred.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby californiauser » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:15 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
run26.2 wrote:You understand I was talking about "lay prestige," right?

If someone is hiring you for a job, their evaluation of your credentials seems to fall outside of the domain of lay prestige.

To jbagel - My experience is that non-lawyers rarely, if ever, ask where I went to school when I discuss my profession. It just doesn't come up.


Interesting. It sounds like you have some pretty chill and down to earth friends/acquaintances. This isn't always the case - maybe its just because of where I grew up and the people I know, but where someone went to school (and where their kids go to school) is an essential inquiry. Sadly, pedigree appears to have become the new silver spoon in America.


x2. Maybe it doesn't come up in flyover country where everyone is assumed to have attended a TTT, but in any major city, one's educational background will generally come up in casual conversation.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby Straw_Mandible » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:23 pm

californiauser wrote:x2. Maybe it doesn't come up in flyover country where everyone is assumed to have attended a TTT, but in any major city, one's educational background will generally come up in casual conversation.


Still... does it matter at all? If you want people to think you're jaw-droppingly brilliant, be jaw-droppingly brilliant. That way you'll never have to worry about whether people will decide to ask you where you went to school.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby wiz » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:37 pm

2014 wrote:
wiz wrote:
2014 wrote:
KingofSplitters55 wrote:People in general definitely discount Chicago and NYU especially harshly. Yale definitely seems to be discounted a bit as well - I'd say the "elite law schools", as an average perception of an average lay-person (irrespective of geographic location), would place the most elite law schools as:

Harvard
Columbia
Georgetown

These schools definitely produce some of the most prominent alumni, have large class sizes, and in Georgetown's case reach deeply into the pool which allows more people to come in contact with it.

I definitely think the prominent alumni aspect is key too - schools like Duke, Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern, etc don't really produce any 'star-level' notable people, while the list of famous and accomplished Georgetown Law graduates rivals that of any law school in the country easily.

The next NBA commissioner and the founder of TMZ are U.Chi alums. Ball's in your court GULC


LBJ and Rumsfeld dabbled in some GULC.

JOHN ASHCROFT


I think we have a winner.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby run26.2 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:57 pm

Cicero76 wrote:
It's always the first question in Florida, but for what is maybe a slightly different reason. If you answer any instate school other than UF/FSU, then you're kinda dismissed, but answering one of those will usually create an instant bond of either camaraderie or genial hatred.

Are you saying they raise this question for law school? That is surprising. Or is it that they ask about your undergrad, and then about your law school?

Maybe my experience is different--I, and my friends, are 10+ years out of college. But I would say after you are out of school for awhile, and interacting with people of a similar age, questions about school diminish. If it does come up, it is usually when person says, "I knew a person at Stanford/When I was at ...", i.e. people bring it up themselves. Yes, this is anecdotal. When people do ask where I went to law school, the question is usually coming from another attorney (i.e., lay prestige plays no part in the interaction).

In any case, I agree that debating about this is stupid. My only point is that most lay people don't care much about where you went to law school. And to the extent they do, it is mainly people that are early on in their careers (and they have more concern for the prestige of schools generally than of law schools themselves, with a few exceptions, notably Harvard).

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby stillwater » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:22 pm

this thread has been an important contribution to TLS and will come to be regarded as canonical. I recommend the MODS sticky this thread because it will continue to produce scholarship and debate for years to come. TYIA. Cheers, OP. You deserve a medal.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby 20141023 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:54 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby stillwater » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:07 am

kappycaft1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I also think educated "lay" people (non-law professionals) DO know the names and relative import of major law firms. When you say Sullivan and Cromwell or Skadden Arps to people in business, medicine, media (maybe not academia...) they know what you are referring to. My parents and their friends don't know what vault is, but they know the names of major law firms.

I think you are greatly overestimating the extent to which people know the names of law firms. I would be surprised if more than 10% of the general "non-law professional" population in America was able to name even 1 of the top 10 Vault law firms. :|

(Most people working at companies only ever have to deal with their in-house legal counsel, so there is no reason for them to give a flying fuck about law firms; if a company does have interactions with outside counsel, the in-house lawyers are usually the ones having those interactions, not the "non-law professionals.")


10% is a hugely generous estimate.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby 20141023 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:34 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:57 pm

stillwater wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I also think educated "lay" people (non-law professionals) DO know the names and relative import of major law firms. When you say Sullivan and Cromwell or Skadden Arps to people in business, medicine, media (maybe not academia...) they know what you are referring to. My parents and their friends don't know what vault is, but they know the names of major law firms.

I think you are greatly overestimating the extent to which people know the names of law firms. I would be surprised if more than 10% of the general "non-law professional" population in America was able to name even 1 of the top 10 Vault law firms. :|

(Most people working at companies only ever have to deal with their in-house legal counsel, so there is no reason for them to give a flying fuck about law firms; if a company does have interactions with outside counsel, the in-house lawyers are usually the ones having those interactions, not the "non-law professionals.")


10% is a hugely generous estimate.


Yeah what? I think like 1%. Anything greater than that is just a lack of perspective.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:06 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:I also think educated "lay" people (non-law professionals) DO know the names and relative import of major law firms. When you say Sullivan and Cromwell or Skadden Arps to people in business, medicine, media (maybe not academia...) they know what you are referring to. My parents and their friends don't know what vault is, but they know the names of major law firms.

I think you are greatly overestimating the extent to which people know the names of law firms. I would be surprised if more than 10% of the general "non-law professional" population in America was able to name even 1 of the top 10 Vault law firms. :|

(Most people working at companies only ever have to deal with their in-house legal counsel, so there is no reason for them to give a flying fuck about law firms; if a company does have interactions with outside counsel, the in-house lawyers are usually the ones having those interactions, not the "non-law professionals.")

My father in law is the VP of a medium-sized company in the Midwest. When we were talking about law school, he mentioned that he was good friends with a partner at one of the top law firms in Chicago. I got excited. Turns out the firm only does regulatory work in his industry. Everyone in his industry thinks its great, apparently, but it's not Vault or AmLaw ranked. When I was talking to him about OCI, he'd never heard of Cravath, Skadden, S&C, etc.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:08 pm

californiauser wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
run26.2 wrote:You understand I was talking about "lay prestige," right?

If someone is hiring you for a job, their evaluation of your credentials seems to fall outside of the domain of lay prestige.

To jbagel - My experience is that non-lawyers rarely, if ever, ask where I went to school when I discuss my profession. It just doesn't come up.


Interesting. It sounds like you have some pretty chill and down to earth friends/acquaintances. This isn't always the case - maybe its just because of where I grew up and the people I know, but where someone went to school (and where their kids go to school) is an essential inquiry. Sadly, pedigree appears to have become the new silver spoon in America.


x2. Maybe it doesn't come up in flyover country where everyone is assumed to have attended a TTT, but in any major city, one's educational background will generally come up in casual conversation.


This makes sense to me. I have lived in four different flyover states... no one asks. No one. Even in "major" cities, no one asks. The only time where you went to school comes up are when you know someone who might have gone to your highschool, or when you are at a sports bar watching college football.

I lived in D.C. for about a year and everyone asked. They asked where I worked, where I went to school, and where my family was "from," which I always took to mean something beyond location. It's sad, because it makes people like me from flyover land think everyone on the coast is insecure, unhappy, petty, etc. That isn't true, at all, but it perpetuates that stereotype (while at the same time perpetuating east coast stereotypes of flyover people-- poorly educated, classless, forgettable :) ). The cultural divides in America are fascinating. Actually one of the reasons I like TLS is that I get to argue on the interwebs with people from all over.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:49 pm

Yeah, I think that's about right. I grew up in Massachusetts (suburb of Boston) and everyone puts college decals on their car's rear window. Like, parents would have decals for themselves and all their kids, so easily 4-5 decals on one (Volvo station wagon) back window. Now I live incredibly far away from the NE, and no one has college decals on their car window. Well, except maybe kids actually in college, at the local college. It's just a different focus.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby wiz » Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:46 pm

stillwater wrote:10% is a hugely generous estimate.


I didn't know wtf a Cravath or a Sullivan & Cromwell was until a few months before OCI.

I only knew Skadden because some gunner in my class began every answer with, "When I was a paralegal at Skadden, I encountered something similar."

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:11 pm

wiz wrote:
stillwater wrote:10% is a hugely generous estimate.


I didn't know wtf a Cravath or a Sullivan & Cromwell was until a few months before OCI.

I only knew Skadden because some gunner in my class began every answer with, "When I was a paralegal at Skadden, I encountered something similar."


Meh. I'm glad people don't start sentences that way at my school.

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wiz
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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby wiz » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:13 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
wiz wrote:
stillwater wrote:10% is a hugely generous estimate.


I didn't know wtf a Cravath or a Sullivan & Cromwell was until a few months before OCI.

I only knew Skadden because some gunner in my class began every answer with, "When I was a paralegal at Skadden, I encountered something similar."


Meh. I'm glad people don't start sentences that way at my school.


Tbf, it was only one insufferable bro in my section. Most other people were chill.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:16 pm

So, to shed a little datum into this hodpodge of errant guesswork, the (tragically misguided but hilarious) Business Insider magazine "Best Law Schools" rankings came out last month, and they are basically a "prestige" measure for all intents and purposes. They ignore placement and admissions statistics, and focus solely on the opinions of a sample of major practitioners in the field. So yea, impressions of prestige.

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drawstring
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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby drawstring » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:29 pm

Where I'm at (international here) lay prestige seems like: HLS>>>>>>>>>>>YLS>>> everything else.
Last edited by drawstring on Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Schools' Preftige?

Postby BigZuck » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:49 pm

jbagelboy wrote:So, to shed a little datum into this hodpodge of errant guesswork, the (tragically misguided but hilarious) Business Insider magazine "Best Law Schools" rankings came out last month, and they are basically a "prestige" measure for all intents and purposes. They ignore placement and admissions statistics, and focus solely on the opinions of a sample of major practitioners in the field. So yea, impressions of prestige.


T20 baby!

Lol@ a lot of that. But especially 21 and 23. And who the hell would put Davis ahead of USC? I don't even think people in the town of Davis would do that.




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